Final Fantasy XIV

[Darth Yan]

<been fighting proto-gods, armies, ancient world-destroying mecha, et al since hitting the ground running>
"LOL IMMA TEST YOU."
Thing is, it's even worse before the rework to the MSQ because before that it's heavily implied that outside the echo stopping you from being tempered*, the only active event Hydalean protected you from was Ultima, a giant nuke spell (that is never mentioned again). Even after the rework, she only had to save you from Lah-hee-brea. So, Excuuuuuuse me Princess if the WoL is struggling for some support every once in a blue moon when Elder Gods of Men are dropping nukes on her.

And I take issue with "wise master." Midgard into HW is kind of exposed as just winging it and making incredibly poor choices that screwed over his children. He's never EARNED anything. He's just old and it's implied dragons gain power with age naturally. He's not special, he's just old. And in fact comes from a race where days old children are capable of killing trained spoken warriors. Musosai (SAM) is the most genericy cliche version of this they put in the game, and he's done WAY better, and I GAF about him and his story.

It probably is cultural differences. Because to me, it's like giving shit to the average Action Movie hero who is protected by plot armor. Sure, yea, that's great. But these men (and women) are still putting in the work and getting shot/beating/stabbed etc. But Midgar acts like we're just dogshit without the BoL. And I don't need him over my shoulder saying dumb shit like "more people gonna die in the future. You will feel loss." You mean like when Nazis stormed my base and killed all my doods and I had to move the bodies?

He's annoying and pisses me off because it's like the authors screaming at me: "FEEL FEELINGS!" The writing was good enough to carry the emotional weight of what was happening without his monologuing. And the WoL should have had the option to stuff him in a bag when he was being annoying.

Obviously, we prove him 10000% wrong in HW. We get the blessing back and go from punching Proto-Gods to near-literal Gods. And I get he's prolly super-grumpy from "dieing" and waking up to some hoomans and his sons roars, so he's taking it out on us. But it doesn't make him any less an ass. In fact, it just explains why he's an ass. I'm not saying HW isn't ALSO about Midgard getting over his shit, but IMO: at the start, he's no better than the mortals he looks down on.

*In ARR, it's also stated Primals have to be actively trying to temper you and it's an "action" they do, not an aura. Ramuh, for example, has no interest in tempering men. The Sylphs who summoned him basically tempered themselves. And the Moogles seem to go back to normal once you punch King Mog. FFXIV is inconsistent in how tempering works.

He has a pretty good reason to look down on mortals. Thordan betrayed and murdered his daughter and the war's been going on for 1000 years at this point.

Another issue is that while the hero has accomplished a lot of PHYSICAL feats that doesn't necessarily mean they have strength of character and personality; the test proves you do have the personality of a hero as well as the strength (hell the only reason they avoid getting consumed by Nidhogg's eye is because their strength of character).

In short, he wanted to prove if we had the personality required to be a hero; we passed.

You do tend to miss a lot of obvious things, such as refusing to acknowledge that yes there is a part of the Warrior of Light that takes joy in combat and likes overcoming enemies. (The Dark Knight Quest states point blank that part of the reason the warrior seeks out villains and gets involved with helping others is because there's a part of them that WANTS to fight, and while they certainly don't take joy in slaughtering civilians and bathing in their blood there is a part of them that takes satisfaction in overcoming a powerful foe or enjoys the rush when facing off with dangerous creatures. Even low level adventurers need those qualities to be successful.) It doesn't cancel out their kindness or compassion but it is VERY much part of who the Warrior of Light is. They are a killer; not only are they damn good at it there is a part of them that LIKES it.

[Lord Revan]

Yeah the test isn't about do we have the might to defeat primals Midgardsormr knows that we do, but rather the test is that do we have the strength for that might to not do to our heads and becoming the very thing we're fighting.

[Darth Yan]

Pretty much; the warrior's proven themselves physically. Do they have the strength of character to do the right thing? Midgardsormr has ever reason to be skeptical given when mortals have done to his children (i.e. King Thordan and his descendants). The only reason he's giving the Warrior of Light the time of day is because they have Hydalaen's blessing, and if the goddess who gave him shelter can see something in them maybe there is. But that's all he's willing to do.

Again, he might have been a dick about it but his goals were legitimate.

[Lord Revan]

Pretty much; the warrior's proven themselves physically. Do they have the strength of character to do the right thing? Midgardsormr has ever reason to be skeptical given when mortals have done to his children (i.e. King Thordan and his descendants). The only reason he's giving the Warrior of Light the time of day is because they have Hydalaen's blessing, and if the goddess who gave him shelter can see something in them maybe there is. But that's all he's willing to do.

Again, he might have been a dick about it but his goals were legitimate.

Ratatoskr wasn't also the only child Midgardsormr had lost to greed of mortals Spoiler

Bahamut and Azdaja were both lost to the Allagans and in case of Bahamut his children were used to summon a primal in the form of the lost dragon to be used against said children

And one the story points in Heavensward was that FF14 dragons live a very long time and to them events that happened during the reign of the Allagan Empire might seem recent, even though to mortals that's barely remembered ancient history.

[LadyTevar]

Ratatoskr wasn't also the only child Midgardsormr had lost to greed of mortals Spoiler

Bahamut and Azdaja were both lost to the Allagans and in case of Bahamut his children were used to summon a primal in the form of the lost dragon to be used against said children

And one the story points in Heavensward was that FF14 dragons live a very long time and to them events that happened during the reign of the Allagan Empire might seem recent, even though to mortals that's barely remembered ancient history.

Your spoiler didn't show because of the quote. Don't know if it will now either.

Either way, yes, Midgardsomr lost more than one of his children, as well as countless grandchildren to the Allagian Empire as well as Nidhogg's tragic war of vengeance. Omegascape and Endwalker shows what else was lost. TBH, he's got every right to be bitter and grumpy. No one should outlive his family.

[TheFeniX]

He has a pretty good reason to look down on mortals. Thordan betrayed and murdered his daughter and the war's been going on for 1000 years at this point.

Wow, so a small group of humans, out of millions did a shit thing to his kid, and now he thinks we're all trash. This somehow doesn't make him look like an asshole?

Another issue is that while the hero has accomplished a lot of PHYSICAL feats that doesn't necessarily mean they have strength of character and personality; the test proves you do have the personality of a hero as well as the strength (hell the only reason they avoid getting consumed by Nidhogg's eye is because their strength of character).

This argument ends up being pointless. I can't think of a single Class/Job quest you would have had to do (esp as a 50 DRG) that wouldn't apply. The WoL is shown (and usually offered) shortcuts to power, skipping the understanding portion, and they turn it down at every opportunity. The MSQ is literally a step by step process in this exact thing. The idea physical feats are unrelated is weird. The only difference between the WoL and all the other people who died doing the right thing is she has the power to keep doing it because she didn't die the first time she showed her strength of character.

In short, he wanted to prove if we had the personality required to be a hero; we passed.

Fuck him, he's not in a moral position to test us that way. And the WoL passed that test long ago. As stated, and possibly due to writer intent, he's in a PHYSICAL (power) position to test us.

You do tend to miss a lot of obvious things, such as refusing to acknowledge that yes there is a part of the Warrior of Light that takes joy in combat and likes overcoming enemies. (The Dark Knight Quest states point blank that part of the reason the warrior seeks out villains and gets involved with helping others is because there's a part of them that WANTS to fight, and while they certainly don't take joy in slaughtering civilians and bathing in their blood there is a part of them that takes satisfaction in overcoming a powerful foe or enjoys the rush when facing off with dangerous creatures. Even low level adventurers need those qualities to be successful.) It doesn't cancel out their kindness or compassion but it is VERY much part of who the Warrior of Light is. They are a killer; not only are they damn good at it there is a part of them that LIKES it.

I was told by a mod to drop this line of argument. So enjoy your retaliation free cheap shot.

Either way, yes, Midgardsomr lost more than one of his children, as well as countless grandchildren to the Allagian Empire as well as Nidhogg's tragic war of vengeance. Omegascape and Endwalker shows what else was lost. TBH, he's got every right to be bitter and grumpy. No one should outlive his family.

So, there was a thread more than a few years back, and my reasoning then is the same as now: Superman does not have "the right" to be grumpy and take his bullshit out on the first person he sees, even people who may have wronged him. Midgardsomr's entire intro dialog is: "who the fuck woke me up? Thou hast forgotten the face of thy lord. Remember mortal, and fear me." Then he tries to kill you. Which is not unlike Thor opening up on Captain America (who to him is just some human in spandex with a shield) with a Mjolnir smash, which would have killed 99.99999% of humans. Just ignoring he's not a native to Earth (neither are FFXIV Dragons), Superman is also pretty much an ACTUAL God in his universe.

Midgard decided to come here, he decided his immortality gave him an edge against mortals, he decided to let his kids get involved in politics and Ascian shennanigans. He wants to be a crybaby about how his people got rolled by the natives, fine. I just don't see him as a moral compass. And neither did the writers.

The idea Midgard or most dragons have some kind of moral authority here is asinine to me. They live a long time? Great. The humans who wronged them are long fuckin' dead and they specifically know this and mock the concept, thus blaming the decedents. This makes them assholes. In fact, HW itself is a rather long discussion on this in how the Dragons lack moral authority: their just thirsting for revenge against dead men. So I have no problem being annoyed with Midgars sermonizing.

So if you want a summation of my general argument: Dragons may have some footing to be mad at Spoken. However, Midgardsomr is literally bitching at the ONE person (maybe Minfilla too) that he has no right to be bitching at. As the ENTIRETY of Heavensward goes on to show, he is 100% wrong about the WoL and even comes to realize this. But this doesn't mean he's not an asshole. But I place him above the assholery of Gaius, Ilberd, Adeledji, et al specifically because he's an immortal demigod from another planet.

[Darth Yan]

To an immortal being 1000 years is the equivalent of last week. Those scars take longer to heal. And the ensuing war sure as hell didn’t help either.

Again, you lock into what you believe and dismiss anything else as wrong even if the counter evidence is as subtle as a sledgehammer to the nuts.

[TheFeniX]

To an immortal being 1000 years is the equivalent of last week. Those scars take longer to heal. And the ensuing war sure as hell didn’t help either.

What scars? I'm sorry, are you applying knowledge you gained later of Migard's story that was nonexistent in ARR to this current argument? Cuz it sure sounds like you are, and it makes you look like as much an asshole as Migard. I remember when he woke up and was like "muh daughter," and then said "you'll pay for what happened to her" to some rando who didn't even know what the fuck is going on (which still would have made him an asshole). Except LOLWHOOPS, he didn't do that, he said


His opener makes him look like a mega asshole. And then he gets his shit pushed in, so he's like "lol, BoL hacks" which makes him look like a crybaby asshole. And then he says dumb shit like "LOL people die, isn't that sad, more people gonna die, that make you sad?" which makes him look like a super asshole. So he ends up looking like the Super mega crybaby asshole I dealt with when I was playing this game in 2.X as content was released.

And then I redid this as an alt nearly a decade later: yep, still an asshole. And people who defend him? Assholes.

Which may be why you're fanboying for him? I dunno, but you sound like someone who has the entire story and is like "he had GOOD REASON, to try and murder some rando mortal standing in front of him when he woke up, cuz he waz rewy rewy mad about his dawter!"

Protip: I dunno what asshole juice you fuckers drink, but I'll go out on a limb and saying trying to murder random mortals when you're a demi-god, makes you an asshole, whatever lame ass excuses (that were non-existent when this content dropped) seemingly bootlickers* like yourself will come up with to justify it.

They would take this same idea when having Varis give his "LOL you try to make society better, but CURIOUS, you are part of society. I AM VERY CLEVER." However, it's obvious for anyone not you, Varis was a POS touting the words of his Ascian masters. Varis was an asshole too. Sure you don't want to cheerlead for Fantasy Nazis?

I literally do not GAF that Dragons exist as an out of context problem, because they've been stated ON SCREEN from the start to understand the context of mortal lifespans and progeny. Yet they STILL decide to wage a war against the "descendants of man" because they. are. assholes.

Again, you lock into what you believe and dismiss anything else as wrong even if the counter evidence is as subtle as a sledgehammer to the nuts.

I "believe" what is shown on screen via the authors. Darth Yan believes "HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRm muh dragons."

*You're prolly not some bootlicker, but you sound like one: Midgards whole shitck is "AM MAD, have power to stomp little person, WILL STOMP!" in ARR. The idea he has ANY moral authority is laughable and makes me wonder how much people love fascists. Literally, dragon's entire justification ends up being the same as the Garleans: we were wronged X years ago by <y>, so we have all the justification we need to kill/enslave them. Except the Garleans are literally Ascian puppets. The dragons decided to be fascists on their own.

Sure, they "get better," but before that: fuck em. I don't empathize with Nazis. But you do you: keep on cheerleading them.

[LadyTevar]

THIS IS GETTING NOWHERE, GENTLEMEN.
I'm declaring a Moratorium on Midgardsomr for the moment.

[Darth Yan]

To an immortal being 1000 years is the equivalent of last week. Those scars take longer to heal. And the ensuing war sure as hell didn’t help either.

What scars? I'm sorry, are you applying knowledge you gained later of Migard's story that was nonexistent in ARR to this current argument? Cuz it sure sounds like you are, and it makes you look like as much an asshole as Migard. I remember when he woke up and was like "muh daughter," and then said "you'll pay for what happened to her" to some rando who didn't even know what the fuck is going on (which still would have made him an asshole). Except LOLWHOOPS, he didn't do that, he said


His opener makes him look like a mega asshole. And then he gets his shit pushed in, so he's like "lol, BoL hacks" which makes him look like a crybaby asshole. And then he says dumb shit like "LOL people die, isn't that sad, more people gonna die, that make you sad?" which makes him look like a super asshole. So he ends up looking like the Super mega crybaby asshole I dealt with when I was playing this game in 2.X as content was released.

And then I redid this as an alt nearly a decade later: yep, still an asshole. And people who defend him? Assholes.

Which may be why you're fanboying for him? I dunno, but you sound like someone who has the entire story and is like "he had GOOD REASON, to try and murder some rando mortal standing in front of him when he woke up, cuz he waz rewy rewy mad about his dawter!"

Protip: I dunno what asshole juice you fuckers drink, but I'll go out on a limb and saying trying to murder random mortals when you're a demi-god, makes you an asshole, whatever lame ass excuses (that were non-existent when this content dropped) seemingly bootlickers* like yourself will come up with to justify it.

They would take this same idea when having Varis give his "LOL you try to make society better, but CURIOUS, you are part of society. I AM VERY CLEVER." However, it's obvious for anyone not you, Varis was a POS touting the words of his Ascian masters. Varis was an asshole too. Sure you don't want to cheerlead for Fantasy Nazis?

I literally do not GAF that Dragons exist as an out of context problem, because they've been stated ON SCREEN from the start to understand the context of mortal lifespans and progeny. Yet they STILL decide to wage a war against the "descendants of man" because they. are. assholes.

Again, you lock into what you believe and dismiss anything else as wrong even if the counter evidence is as subtle as a sledgehammer to the nuts.

I "believe" what is shown on screen via the authors. Darth Yan believes "HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRm muh dragons."

*You're prolly not some bootlicker, but you sound like one: Midgards whole shitck is "AM MAD, have power to stomp little person, WILL STOMP!" in ARR. The idea he has ANY moral authority is laughable and makes me wonder how much people love fascists. Literally, dragon's entire justification ends up being the same as the Garleans: we were wronged X years ago by <y>, so we have all the justification we need to kill/enslave them. Except the Garleans are literally Ascian puppets. The dragons decided to be fascists on their own.

Sure, they "get better," but before that: fuck em. I don't empathize with Nazis. But you do you: keep on cheerleading them.

You really don't look at the authors though. In fact you've gleefully ignored what the authors actually say when it contradicts your own headcanon (hence your refusal to acknowledge aspects of the Warrior of Light's character, or that Zenos is actually entirely right about the fact that there is a part of the warrior that enjoys fighting even if their desire to protect people is stronger.)

Again, you ignore what's actually on screen even if it's conveyed with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer to the testicles all the while saying you understand the story better. You're basically a know nothing know it all.

[Steve]

You really don't look at the authors though. In fact you've gleefully ignored what the authors actually say when it contradicts your own headcanon (hence your refusal to acknowledge aspects of the Warrior of Light's character, or that Zenos is actually entirely right about the fact that there is a part of the warrior that enjoys fighting even if their desire to protect people is stronger.)

Your accusation aside, Zenos' position that the WoL yearns for the next challenge, the next brush with death, is up to us to decide for our own WoL characters. We can agree, we can disagree and treat Zenos like a chore to be dealt with so he doesn't hurt anyone else, or we can reject him entirely and want him dead for all the misery and suffering he's caused, including to our character and others. While the format necessitates they give the WoL some characteristics outside player control, the idea that the WoL is seeking "ever mightier foes" to push them "closer to the precipice", seeking one that will finally "fill the void", is something left up to the player. The player can decide if Zenos is entirely right, or only partly right.

And, I mean, he is partly right, in that the WoL is an adventurer, and adventure means challenge, danger, etc. But that doesn't mean one's WoL wants to keep fighting deadly enemies for the sake of filling some void in their heart, or out of a lust for battle. You can be a WoL for whom combat is just part of adventuring, not feared but not gleefully sought out. You can be more like what Emet-Selch proposed: an explorer, a traveler, looking for new sights, expanding your horizons and learning of the world. Or you can be a knight errant who travels to find wrongs to right. These are just as much potential aspects of the Warriof of Light as Zenos' view that you're an adrenaline junkie trying to fill a void in your heart by seeking greater foes to challenge and defeat.

[Darth Yan]

You really don't look at the authors though. In fact you've gleefully ignored what the authors actually say when it contradicts your own headcanon (hence your refusal to acknowledge aspects of the Warrior of Light's character, or that Zenos is actually entirely right about the fact that there is a part of the warrior that enjoys fighting even if their desire to protect people is stronger.)

Your accusation aside, Zenos' position that the WoL yearns for the next challenge, the next brush with death, is up to us to decide for our own WoL characters. We can agree, we can disagree and treat Zenos like a chore to be dealt with so he doesn't hurt anyone else, or we can reject him entirely and want him dead for all the misery and suffering he's caused, including to our character and others. While the format necessitates they give the WoL some characteristics outside player control, the idea that the WoL is seeking "ever mightier foes" to push them "closer to the precipice", seeking one that will finally "fill the void", is something left up to the player. The player can decide if Zenos is entirely right, or only partly right.

And, I mean, he is partly right, in that the WoL is an adventurer, and adventure means challenge, danger, etc. But that doesn't mean one's WoL wants to keep fighting deadly enemies for the sake of filling some void in their heart, or out of a lust for battle. You can be a WoL for whom combat is just part of adventuring, not feared but not gleefully sought out. You can be more like what Emet-Selch proposed: an explorer, a traveler, looking for new sights, expanding your horizons and learning of the world. Or you can be a knight errant who travels to find wrongs to right. These are just as much potential aspects of the Warriof of Light as Zenos' view that you're an adrenaline junkie trying to fill a void in your heart by seeking greater foes to challenge and defeat.

My interpretation is that the Warrior DOES ultimately fight to protect people they love and care for and to help the weak; even Zenos admits as much. The issue is that taking joy in combat or overcoming foes is not the same as mindless slaughter; it can exist alongside compassion. I think it's fair to say that there is a small part that likes fighting even if at the end of the day they ARE a kindhearted hero.

Fenix seems to think that taking joy in fighting and overcoming foes is the same as bathing in people's blood and loving slaughter and carnage. That....is rather far fetched I think,

The Midgardsormr stuff is part of a similar pattern of close mindedness; people have given ample reasons for why his stance is understandable and they just go "nu uh he's just a big meanie." So I feel entirely comfortable making those accusations.

[Steve]

I'm intentionally avoiding the Midgardsormr issue so that Tev doesn't modhammer me like I'm 8-bit Black Mage pulling something naughty.

I think it's easy to be misunderstood here if you're talking about how Zenos is right. Zenos' opinons on the WoL are still rooted in his own nihilistic interaction with the world. Zenos himself can't conceive of living aside from being in conflict, being pushed to his limits. He sees others in the same light; it was a major breakthrough for him to come to understand the WoL is different, but how different, that's for the player to judge.

[TheFeniX]

You really don't look at the authors though. In fact you've gleefully ignored what the authors actually say when it contradicts your own headcanon (hence your refusal to acknowledge aspects of the Warrior of Light's character, or that Zenos is actually entirely right about the fact that there is a part of the warrior that enjoys fighting even if their desire to protect people is stronger.)

What the ever loving fuck are you on about? You're gonna quote my entire post.... and then just ramble about some dumb bullshit from what.... 5 months ago? Of which, a mod said "drop it."

Also: You win, I retract my statement from an earlier post. I no longer think you're not a bootlicker.

The Midgardsormr stuff is part of a similar pattern of close mindedness; people have given ample reasons for why his stance is understandable and they just go "nu uh he's just a big meanie." So I feel entirely comfortable making those accusations.

Legit the most specific defense of his actions I can cobble together from this shitshow "he's grumpy" and "his daughter died." This somehow justifies murder and genocide. Well, this IS still a Sci-Fi forum, and damn does sci-fi live and breathe in those types of themes.

People like you are why we can't have villains like Zenos, Darth Vader, Homelander et al. Cuz you will be too busy jerking your dick to them for how awesome murderous psychopaths are to realize you aren't supposed to empathize with them at all. TBF: the writers DO try and get me, multiple times mind you, to find some common ground with a POS mass-murdering psychopath like Zenos who exists solely because he has the authority of violence. But I never took the bait, cuz I'm not a fuckin' fascist.

But your continued assertion of "Hitler had some good points" is def something I would have gone into 5 months ago, due to how fuckin' hilarious it is. Oh well.

EDIT: I almost forgot, I hope I make the edit window. I made that previous post while really drunk. Upon rereading while sober: I regret nothing.

[Darth Yan]

First off you're falling into the trap that a lot of people fall into, namely by diluting the definition of fascism to the point it's utterly meaningless. Fascism has a VERY specific definition (the key part is that ALL people forgo individuality and submit to the will of the state; there is NO individuality in fascism). Merely using violence to exert your will isn't fascist in and of itself. So you're already demonstrating a child's understanding of the word by throwing it around carelessly. Kinda par for the course.

Secondly, the arguments about Midgardsormr were more along the lines of "my children were exploited and murdered repeatedly over the centuries" and "the war against my kids was not only started by the mortals, they're still at it AND lying about the cause of the war". The Holy See could have easily owned up to the truth at any point in those 1000 years and given an apology (which when it does happen most of the dragons ultimately DO accept); they didn't, and instead perpetuated the lie all the while killing his OTHER children because the leaders were too chickenshit to admit that their founding father was a treacherous murderer who got what he deserved. Tellingly, when they DO finally do the right thing and own up to the past (even when it causes a lot of upheaval) most dragons (Midgardsormr included) accept it and are willing to try and work together to make a better solution (Nidhogg and his crew not withstanding). That's the kind of thing that DOES give him a legitimate reason to look down on mortals.

To give a real world comparison, if Israel fully admitted that their claims of the Palestinians leaving to make way for genocidal hordes was a lie and that they only left because the Israelis deliberately expelled them out of racial hatred and a belief that their suffering mattered more, gave a formal apology AND actually made concrete steps to address the problem a lot of Palestinians would probably be willing to let go of the anger and try to work to build a better future. Israel's refusal to do so, and the fact that they're STILL ethnically cleansing Palestinians, is a major reason why a lot of Palestinians still hate their guts and don't trust them.

Thirdly, no, you're blatantly ignoring what the story is actually saying with Zenos. It's made VERY clear that he's a monster but also that a.) the fucked up situation involving his upbringing played a pretty big role in him being a sociopath b.) these circumstances combined with his station as Crown Prince meant he never was able to form meaningful bonds with others (which only made the sociopathy worse) c.) his prodigious strength meant he not only was more isolated (and thus fell further into being a monster) but never really had any goal to aspire to. The Warrior of Light is the very first person to match him, and thus the first person to really give him something to work towards. Those are the kind of things where even if the character is utterly evil you can still sympathize with them, if only because they never had the chance to be anything but a monster given the circumstances (sorta like how the Homelander is an utter piece of shit but never had a chance to be better because he was raised by an evil megacorporation in complete isolation).

If anything, the fact he actually has to COMPROMISE and try to understand the Warrior's point of view in order to get what he wants actually subverts a lot of Nietzschean Ubermensch philosophy.

I bring this up because it's part of a pattern. YOU interpret the story a certain way; multiple people told you that you were wrong, and gave evidence showing that the story itself disagreed with you. Rather than gracefully admit that you might have been wrong, you doubled down and insisted that anyone who disagreed must be wrong (Sort of like Darkstar from the Wars v Trek days) and or evil.

Grow up, you utter child.

[LadyTevar]

You really don't look at the authors though. In fact you've gleefully ignored what the authors actually say when it contradicts your own headcanon (hence your refusal to acknowledge aspects of the Warrior of Light's character, or that Zenos is actually entirely right about the fact that there is a part of the warrior that enjoys fighting even if their desire to protect people is stronger.)

Your accusation aside, Zenos' position that the WoL yearns for the next challenge, the next brush with death, is up to us to decide for our own WoL characters. We can agree, we can disagree and treat Zenos like a chore to be dealt with so he doesn't hurt anyone else, or we can reject him entirely and want him dead for all the misery and suffering he's caused, including to our character and others. While the format necessitates they give the WoL some characteristics outside player control, the idea that the WoL is seeking "ever mightier foes" to push them "closer to the precipice", seeking one that will finally "fill the void", is something left up to the player. The player can decide if Zenos is entirely right, or only partly right.

And, I mean, he is partly right, in that the WoL is an adventurer, and adventure means challenge, danger, etc. But that doesn't mean one's WoL wants to keep fighting deadly enemies for the sake of filling some void in their heart, or out of a lust for battle. You can be a WoL for whom combat is just part of adventuring, not feared but not gleefully sought out. You can be more like what Emet-Selch proposed: an explorer, a traveler, looking for new sights, expanding your horizons and learning of the world. Or you can be a knight errant who travels to find wrongs to right. These are just as much potential aspects of the Warriof of Light as Zenos' view that you're an adrenaline junkie trying to fill a void in your heart by seeking greater foes to challenge and defeat.

While yes, I did look forward to the next challenge, Zenos was totally reading his own worldview into the WOL. He had a void, and yes his upbringing did contribute, but his decision on how to fill that void was to go looking for a way to kill himself. Unfortunately, he was too good a fighter and so he started seeing all those he fought as "lessers" because they couldn't kill him.

I'd still have liked the option after we kill Metrion to look Zeon in the eye and say "no, you're not worth it". The last fight would still happen, because to him I "owed him that fight". Which was all it was in the end, him wanting that last chance to prove he was better. I didn't have anything to prove to him. I didn't NEED to prove myself to him.

But that's not how it worked out so "Eh".

[Darth Yan]

You really don't look at the authors though. In fact you've gleefully ignored what the authors actually say when it contradicts your own headcanon (hence your refusal to acknowledge aspects of the Warrior of Light's character, or that Zenos is actually entirely right about the fact that there is a part of the warrior that enjoys fighting even if their desire to protect people is stronger.)

Your accusation aside, Zenos' position that the WoL yearns for the next challenge, the next brush with death, is up to us to decide for our own WoL characters. We can agree, we can disagree and treat Zenos like a chore to be dealt with so he doesn't hurt anyone else, or we can reject him entirely and want him dead for all the misery and suffering he's caused, including to our character and others. While the format necessitates they give the WoL some characteristics outside player control, the idea that the WoL is seeking "ever mightier foes" to push them "closer to the precipice", seeking one that will finally "fill the void", is something left up to the player. The player can decide if Zenos is entirely right, or only partly right.

And, I mean, he is partly right, in that the WoL is an adventurer, and adventure means challenge, danger, etc. But that doesn't mean one's WoL wants to keep fighting deadly enemies for the sake of filling some void in their heart, or out of a lust for battle. You can be a WoL for whom combat is just part of adventuring, not feared but not gleefully sought out. You can be more like what Emet-Selch proposed: an explorer, a traveler, looking for new sights, expanding your horizons and learning of the world. Or you can be a knight errant who travels to find wrongs to right. These are just as much potential aspects of the Warriof of Light as Zenos' view that you're an adrenaline junkie trying to fill a void in your heart by seeking greater foes to challenge and defeat.

While yes, I did look forward to the next challenge, Zenos was totally reading his own worldview into the WOL. He had a void, and yes his upbringing did contribute, but his decision on how to fill that void was to go looking for a way to kill himself. Unfortunately, he was too good a fighter and so he started seeing all those he fought as "lessers" because they couldn't kill him.

I'd still have liked the option after we kill Metrion to look Zeon in the eye and say "no, you're not worth it". The last fight would still happen, because to him I "owed him that fight". Which was all it was in the end, him wanting that last chance to prove he was better. I didn't have anything to prove to him. I didn't NEED to prove myself to him.

But that's not how it worked out so "Eh".

I rather liked that he actually had to compromise in order to get what he wanted. He actually takes the time to consider the Warrior's point of view and what drives them, and his willingness to let the warrior walk away shows growth on his part. It's even implied that he's the one who wished for the transporter to take the dying warrior back to the ragnarok.

Whatever his motives he DID help save the universe.

[LadyTevar]

I rather liked that he actually had to compromise in order to get what he wanted. He actually takes the time to consider the Warrior's point of view and what drives them, and his willingness to let the warrior walk away shows growth on his part. It's even implied that he's the one who wished for the transporter to take the dying warrior back to the ragnarok.

Whatever his motives he DID help save the universe.

Yes, he did.
So the WOL would have time to stop and give him the fight he wanted.

[Darth Yan]

Indeed, utterly selfish.

The whole thing about a lot of ubermensch wannabes is that they want to force their wills on everyone and never ever compromise. Zenos being made to actually compromise to get what he wants was a nice subversion of that

[Steve]

I think the complaint here is that we weren't allowed to say no, and the ways we say yes are, to Fenix, worded badly, in ways that give Zenos validity he doesn't deserve. As if the writers want him to be seen as having validity.

[LadyTevar]

I think the complaint here is that we weren't allowed to say no, and the ways we say yes are, to Fenix, worded badly, in ways that give Zenos validity he doesn't deserve. As if the writers want him to be seen as having validity.

Yes. That's a good way to put it.

In other news MOOGLE TIME!!

I've already ran 9 Prae runs and got the Round and Warring Lanniers. That leaves me TWO MORE Lanniers to go!
Pity Prae is only giving 7 Tomestones per run this time. However, running Ultima (Porta Decimius) gets you 3 Tomestones. So if you run Prae and run Ultima, you get 10 just like before it was split.
But just running Prae is easier. It's also leveling my WHM, who's in that annoying spot between 70-80.

To get the Lunar Kamuy (50 tomes), I need at least 7 more runs. That will just leave the Hallowed Kamuy to get. Then another 7 runs for the Ufiti (Gorilla) mount (another 50 tomes).

Then, if I want the Minions, I'll need one run each for the Hedgehoglet and the Tora-Jiro (7 tomes each), and another 7 runs for the Elvaan (50 tomes). 9 Runs.

Then there's the Orchestrations. eScape is another 50 tomes, 777Whiskers is 7. Another 8-9 Runs.
Then there's a new Hairstyle (50) and the new Dance (50).... 14 runs for those....

*sigh*
Good thing my WHM needs leveled, I'm going to be doing Prae for some time...

[Darth Yan]

I think the complaint here is that we weren't allowed to say no, and the ways we say yes are, to Fenix, worded badly, in ways that give Zenos validity he doesn't deserve. As if the writers want him to be seen as having validity.

Maybe; I don't particularly mind not being able to say no. The guy DID develop an understanding of the warrior, and as mentioned earlier he does actually show a willingness to compromise his views and even let the Warrior of Light walk away at the very end. That counts for something in my mind. There's even implications he's the one who saves the warrior at the end by making the teleporter appear and take them back to the Ragnarok.

The other issue is that it's part of a general pattern with Fenix. They lock into their own interpretations of the story, and if anyone disagrees with it they dig and accuse the other person of not getting it even if the other party presents ample evidence that Fenix's view is wrong. That they also felt the need to call me a fascist bootlicker further undermines any sympathy for their position. LadyTevar felt somewhat similarly but was far less obnoxious about it so I can respect her arguments even if I personally disagree.

[TheFeniX]

First off you're falling into the trap that a lot of people fall into, namely by diluting the definition of fascism to the point it's utterly meaningless. Fascism has a VERY specific definition (the key part is that ALL people forgo individuality and submit to the will of the state; there is NO individuality in fascism). Merely using violence to exert your will isn't fascist in and of itself. So you're already demonstrating a child's understanding of the word by throwing it around carelessly. Kinda par for the course.

Pedantic shit like this is why Murrican's get butthurt when you even call actual Nazis, Nazis.

Secondly, the arguments about Midgardsormr were more along the lines of "my children were exploited and murdered repeatedly over the centuries" and "the war against my kids was not only started by the mortals, they're still at it AND lying about the cause of the war". The Holy See could have easily owned up to the truth at any point in those 1000 years and given an apology (which when it does happen most of the dragons ultimately DO accept); they didn't, and instead perpetuated the lie all the while killing his OTHER children because the leaders were too chickenshit to admit that their founding father was a treacherous murderer who got what he deserved.

I don't try and justify real world governments/people stepping on the necks of innocents for the sins of their leaders, why the fuck would I bother in a video game? It's hilarious I'm supposed to believe immortal dragons aren't assholes for murdering non-combatant men/women/children because they didn't get an apology. And this is funny too because that wasn't even my original point that you went after using Lore that didn't even exist at the time.

If dragons were making it a point to eat Dragoons or anyone wearing "the colors" of Ishgard. I mean, maybe we could have something out.

That's the kind of thing that DOES give him a legitimate reason to look down on mortals.

Yea, fake Gods tend to get butthurt for any ol' reason.

Thirdly, no, you're blatantly ignoring what the story is actually saying with Zenos. It's made VERY clear that he's a monster but also that a.) the fucked up situation involving his upbringing played a pretty big role in him being a sociopath b.) these circumstances combined with his station as Crown Prince meant he never was able to form meaningful bonds with others (which only made the sociopathy worse) c.) his prodigious strength meant he not only was more isolated (and thus fell further into being a monster) but never really had any goal to aspire to. The Warrior of Light is the very first person to match him, and thus the first person to really give him something to work towards. Those are the kind of things where even if the character is utterly evil you can still sympathize with them, if only because they never had the chance to be anything but a monster given the circumstances (sorta like how the Homelander is an utter piece of shit but never had a chance to be better because he was raised by an evil megacorporation in complete isolation).

Zenos had every opportunity to improve himself, unlike many of the likely millions he murdered. Are their sympathetic aspects of Zenos? Sure. Except no one goes on about that. As a player and character, I am never allowed or forced to combat his upbringing or his crimes. To take it or him to task. Instead, I am forced to listen to him vomit garbage dialog with no justification, all done from a position of power, and forced to just mean-mug the camera. After fuckin' too long of that bullshit: What I AM FINALLY given is a choice from the devs to COMPLETELY validate his world-view at worst. And AT BEST, pick two evasive answers that don't attack it at all.

If anything, the fact he actually has to COMPROMISE and try to understand the Warrior's point of view in order to get what he wants actually subverts a lot of Nietzschean Ubermensch philosophy.

"AND NO OTHER REASON"
Such Subverion. Much writing. Am impressed.

This whole scene was stupid and could have been fixed with a dialog of "I'm walking away" and Zenos attacking you anyways, thus selling the point that he's a moronic hypocrit and deny him the validation he (and the writers) are desperate for from a worthless character that should have stayed dead when I killed him the last time. What a fuckin' trainwreck that shits on an otherwise pretty stellar expansion, that also somehow manages to shit on the point of ShB. God damn would FFXIV be a much better game having never bothered shitting out Emo-Mc-Wish-I-Was-Sepiroth. And God damn, his fanboys... a whole other shit sandwich of cringe bullshit.

But your comments about his bullshit actually mirror the circle-jerking in the youtube comments section, so you want to add them to your tally of "people with bad opinions think FeniX is wrong" list?

I bring this up because it's part of a pattern. YOU interpret the story a certain way; multiple people told you that you were wrong, and gave evidence showing that the story itself disagreed with you. Rather than gracefully admit that you might have been wrong, you doubled down and insisted that anyone who disagreed must be wrong (Sort of like Darkstar from the Wars v Trek days) and or evil.

Multiple bad opinion don't make a good one. Also, "evidence" is pretty funny.

Grow up, you utter child.

I bet you picked the first dialog choice.

[Darth Yan]

1.) Misusing words is dangerous; the right tries to CONSTANTLY redefine words to suit their needs, as does the left. If it's about something as serious as fascism than yes I'm going to call it out because it risks making the word meaningless (sort of like how "SJW" has been twisted into a snarl word).

2.) It actually doesn't necessarily validate Zenos at all. The entire reason he agrees to help you is because he realizes that fundementally the Warrior of Light DOES like helping people more than combat, and that his refusal to understand that was a big reason why you wouldn't give him the time of day (that and there's more pressing shit to deal with). I notice you left out the part of the dialogue where he acknowledges that about you, and where he gives you the opportunity to walk away at the end.

3.) Again, you dismiss any opinion that isn't yours as wrong or bad, and yes you do shamelessly ignore any evidence that disagrees with your interpretation (the dark knight quest in Shadowbringers repeatedly hits home that there is a part of the warrior that likes the thrill of combat, overcoming a powerful foe and pushing themselves to the limit.). You just choose to ignore it because it contradicts your head canon and personal values. Something I fully expect you to repeat.

So no, it DIDN'T shit on Endwalker or Shadowbringers. You were just too dense to listen to the story and than doubled down rather than admit your interpretation was wrong. That you arrogantly dismiss anyone who disagree (unlike Tevar who just says she wishes we had an option to refuse and leaves it there) only makes it worse.

Edit: While the Dravanian Horde attacking civilians is obviously bad, that's the thing about war. It corrupts both sides over time and makes them more vicious and nasty (as seen with Nidhogg and his crew). Thordan and his followers drew first blood, lied about the cause, and perpetuated the lie all the while killing dragons who hadn't done anything just because they didn't want to admit the painful truth that Thordan was a cowardly monster.

Does it justify killing civilians? No. But it does explain why. It's like how even if I can't approve of Palestinian terrorist attacks I totally understand why they don't particularly care about killing Israeli civilians.

[LadyTevar]

FENIX.

I SAID DROP IT.

Otherwise you're just proving Yan right.

Yan, stop poking the Fenix.