How should the Jedi and Republic have been reformed if the Sith had lost ?

[Adam Reynolds]

So I have loosely been thinking about a tabletop RPG campaign that would be a rewrite of the prequel era in which the PCs actually intend to win.

So my main question is about what I should do in terms of the reform question. While it is fairly obvious that the Jedi and whole Republic need to be reformed, I'm debating about how this should have been done.

The Jedi essentially have two choices. The first is to fundamentally change what they are and lose the essence of being Jedi. The second option is smaller changes in which they merely become less dogmatic. I'd probably stick with the latter.

The whole Republic is more complex, and I'm really not sure how that one should play out.

[bilateralrope]

The first question to ask is: How will/did the Sith lose ?

Three possibilities come up in my mind, each causing Order 66 to fail. Without Order 66, the Jedi should be able to kill Palpatine. But there will be other consequences:
- Mace Windu waits until the rest of the Jedi Council get there before confronting Palps. Allowing the Jedi to remove Palpatine before he issues Order 66.
- Palps issues Order 66. The biochips fail to force the clones to obey it. But it still went out, and is still a valid order. Some clones will attempt to follow orders.
- Palps issues Order 66. The biochips fail in a way that swiftly incapacitates/kills the clones before they can obey.

As for what reforms happen, maybe leave it up to the players to decide what to attempt. The rest of the Republic and Jedi try to rebuild what they think the Republic is before Phantom Menace, thinking that removing the Sith is enough.

[Ralin]

If the Sith had lost, and I mean definitively lost as in there are no more Sith in the Banite tradition, I don't think the Republic or the Jedi would need to be drastically reformed because that would have been a massive validation of their way of doing things. I suspect most of the Republic's institutional issues would be much less severe without a secret order of powerful and influential space wizards working for centuries to exacerbate them.


Remember, the Trade Federation only dared to pull that shit on Naboo because their leader was convinced Sidious had their back. The Republic wasn't as inherently weak and unstable as it was made out to be. A lot of effort went into creating the situations that made it seem that way.

[Crazedwraith]

Is there anything in canon whether using politics/corruption to bring down the republic/jedi was a long term goal of the banite sith, or Palpatine's own innovation?

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Is there anything in canon whether using politics/corruption to bring down the republic/jedi was a long term goal of the banite sith, or Palpatine's own innovation?

Apart from James Luceno's Darth Plagueis, which I think is currently non-canon, I don't know of any.

Even so, what Palpatine wrought would not disappear overnight. Thanks in part to his machinations, the Jedi order's public image was thoroughly tarnished. Unless they could can find some very compelling evidence of what Palpatine was up to - and there may be none - then they are in real trouble.

With Palpatine dead (Windu at least was bent on killing him), his conspiracy would likely fall apart; much as the Empire did after his canon death. But as I think was mentioned in the ROTS novelisation, the Jedi would have to take control of the government in order to stop it collapsing. At the very least, this is going to look to a lot of people like an assassination and coup. Certainly a lot o f the senators are going to be suspicious. The Loyalist hardliners will not like their beloved leader being murdered, while the Delegation of 2000 will not be best pleased either; no doubt wondering if one dictator has been replaced with another.

The big issue I see really causing trouble is the biochips. The Jedi will almost certainly have to go public on this, as it's one of the few pieces of evidence they have against Palpatine. The big issue, though, is what to do about them. The safe and humane option would be to remove the biochips immediately; but that could disrupt the war effort. But if they leave the biochips in place out of military pragmatism (with no new clones receiving them), then it opens them to a charge of bad faith. It could also cause a split within the Jedi, with those close to the clones - especially Anakin - demanding the biochips be removed, while others insist that this has to wait. Anti-Jedi senators could jump on this very quickly and stir up trouble.

On top of all that, with both Palpatine and Dooku dead, there is no one managing the Clone War. The Separatist Leaders (and the Parliament) will be free to fight on as they see fit; and from what I understand, the Confederacy was far from beaten.

[bilateralrope]

Clone Wars and Bad Batch both have the biochips removed in a Star Destroyer med bay using only the automated systems. So removing the chips shouldn't disrupt the war effort. If the Jedi know about them.

As for the Confederacy, they might seek peace. Or they might figure out that they can ramp up droid production far faster than the Republic can ramp up clone production now that the Sith aren't holding it back.

[Adam Reynolds]

Remember, the Trade Federation only dared to pull that shit on Naboo because their leader was convinced Sidious had their back. The Republic wasn't as inherently weak and unstable as it was made out to be. A lot of effort went into creating the situations that made it seem that way.

While the problem was likely made worse by the Sith throwing gasoline on the fire, the underlying problem of the inequality and lack of governance in the Outer Rim existed in the time of Darth Bane. This was always going to fuel conflict by one means or another.

Is there anything in canon whether using politics/corruption to bring down the republic/jedi was a long term goal of the banite sith, or Palpatine's own innovation?

Besides the Plagueis novel, the Darth Bane trilogy also indicated that this was Bane's long term plan with the Rule of Two. Instead of fighting the Jedi head on, they had to be more subtle. Bane began making connections before his apprentice killed him, at which point she took on the role.

The Plagueis novel also revealed why it took a millennia. One of the Sith in the line (Darth Gravid) was ironically corrupted by the light side, and his apprentice (Darth Gaen) killed him early, at which point she had more or less to start over having lost both the networks and many of the Sith holocrons and other records.

This is all Legends, but as far as I know there isn't anything canon yet.

As for the Confederacy, they might seek peace. Or they might figure out that they can ramp up droid production far faster than the Republic can ramp up clone production now that the Sith aren't holding it back.

Unless Grevious survives and takes over, they are likely too cowardly to keep fighting.

[bilateralrope]

After the Sith are removed and maybe exposed, everyone remaining is going to have to ask two questions:
- What do we want from the war ?
- Is war the best way to get it ?

So I suggest you build your campaign by first going through every major player who will remain after removing the Sith and ask those two questions. They will influence how the war with the Confederacy ends. Maybe with them demanding reforms in exchange for rejoining the Republic, maybe with them remaining separate.

Some of those answers will be things like war profiteering, revenge for {thing the other side did} or other reasons to continue the war. Making those people obstructions your players will need to deal with before any serious peace talks can begin.

[Solauren]

In the Revenge of the Sith novel, when the Jedi Council first discussed removing Palapatine from power (Before he knew he was a Sith) if he refused to step down after Grevious was dead, someone pointed out they'd also have to take over the Senate, and remove the corrupt senators as well.

So, the Jedi thought the only way to reform the Republic was to take it over, and cut the rot out, via force.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

In the Revenge of the Sith novel, when the Jedi Council first discussed removing Palapatine from power (Before he knew he was a Sith) if he refused to step down after Grevious was dead, someone pointed out they'd also have to take over the Senate, and remove the corrupt senators as well.

So, the Jedi thought the only way to reform the Republic was to take it over, and cut the rot out, via force.

The biggest single problem for the Jedi. They're going to have to (at least) arrest a whole bunch of people, some of them important, a number of them senators, on no more authority than the Jedi mandate. Bearing in mind Mace Windu's comment about Palpatine controlling the courts, they might end up shutting down the judicial system too.

This puts the Jedi in a real bind, and it has some serious intrigue potential for stories or RPG. Anyone involved in Palpatine's plot who was not caught in the initial roundup is going to be worried, and will looking for some way to resist or escape. An anti-Jedi faction within the Senate could form quite quickly; accusing the Jedi of killing democracy while trying to save it. The Jedi themselves could split, with hardliners like Mace Windu determined to eradicate the Sith and their pawns no matter the consequences, while moderates like Obi-Wan Kenobi call for restraint. I should point out that the hardliners would not be conventional bad guys here; but good guys in a bad situation and having trouble keeping things in perspective. The Jedi know what even one Sith is capable of, and that knowledge can drive them to extremes. But they're facing resistance from the very system they're trying to protect, in many cases with their own good reasons. Locking people up without trial and shutting down major government institutions are not the sorts of behaviour a democratic government is supposed to just accept.

Now to bring this back into perspective. The Jedi Order's best hope of getting the situation under control is to find hard evidence that Palpatine and those they've arrested are guilty. That means they'll be running around trying to find the evidence, and trying to get people onside to help them; including institutions like the Coruscant Police and Coruscant Guard. Of course their political enemies - regardless of their motives - will be doing the same. So the players could very easily get sucked into a complex web of intrigue, caught between equally legitimate institutions and perspectives. The Jedi might want their help in finding information or keeping the Coruscant Police off their backs; while the Senate factions might want the same. There could be some detective story plots in this; but plenty of action possibilities too.

[bilateralrope]

I can't see Palpatine letting himself be arrested. He's going to try to go down fighting, which would likely injure some of the Jedi Masters. That's going to make it very easy for the Jedi to convince people that he's a well trained non-Jedi force user. Like all the darksiders working for the Confederacy. With luck they will be able to find some communication logs between Palpatine and Dooku. That's going to be tricky for Palps to explain, if he even survived the Jedi's arrest attempt.

But taking down the Sith is probably the easy part. All the other people the Jedi think they need to arrest are going to be harder to gather evidence against.

The Jedi Order's best hope of getting the situation under control is to find hard evidence that Palpatine and those they've arrested are guilty. That means they'll be running around trying to find the evidence, and trying to get people onside to help them; including institutions like the Coruscant Police and Coruscant Guard. Of course their political enemies - regardless of their motives - will be doing the same.

Don't forget about the Confederacy. The accusation that the leaders of both sides of the war were working together could easily shock them into a cease fire. Which means more room for intrigue because we also have the organisations within the Confederacy to consider. Some being corrupt, others wanting to expose corruption within one side and/or the other.

With a final possible complication being if corruption within the Confederacy is a factor that's slowing their droid production. If that corruption gets removed, droid production could increase. What does that mean for the cease fire ?

[Ralin]

I can't see Palpatine letting himself be arrested. He's going to try to go down fighting, which would likely injure some of the Jedi Masters. That's going to make it very easy for the Jedi to convince people that he's a well trained non-Jedi force user. Like all the darksiders working for the Confederacy.

As Palpatine says in the novelization, it's not like there's some sort of law against any of that. Most people are taking the Jedi's word for it that Dooku isn't just some rogue Jedi if they even know that much.

Don't forget about the Confederacy. The accusation that the leaders of both sides of the war were working together could easily shock them into a cease fire.

Problem is we're getting into 'too outlandish to be believe' territory without hard proof at best.

[Crazedwraith]

I can't see Palpatine letting himself be arrested. He's going to try to go down fighting, which would likely injure some of the Jedi Masters. That's going to make it very easy for the Jedi to convince people that he's a well trained non-Jedi force user. Like all the darksiders working for the Confederacy.

As Palpatine says in the novelization, it's not like there's some sort of law against any of that. Most people are taking the Jedi's word for it that Dooku isn't just some rogue Jedi if they even know that much.

Considering the number of wars fought between the Sith and Republic, it seems unlikely freedom of religion really covers it. Even if Palpatine wasn't actively committing treason by organising both sides of the war, which he was.

[bilateralrope]

I can't see Palpatine letting himself be arrested. He's going to try to go down fighting, which would likely injure some of the Jedi Masters. That's going to make it very easy for the Jedi to convince people that he's a well trained non-Jedi force user. Like all the darksiders working for the Confederacy.

As Palpatine says in the novelization, it's not like there's some sort of law against any of that. Most people are taking the Jedi's word for it that Dooku isn't just some rogue Jedi if they even know that much.

What's the context of him saying this ?
If he's saying it to someone, we have to ask if he's being honest this time.

Don't forget about the Confederacy. The accusation that the leaders of both sides of the war were working together could easily shock them into a cease fire.

Problem is we're getting into 'too outlandish to be believe' territory without hard proof at best.

Yes, there is a bit of that, depending on the person in question. Some will be convinced by the accusation far too easily, others will never be convinced no matter the evidence. The people in between are where the intrigue lies.

Though the clones will probably trust the Jedi at least enough to investigate it further.

[Ralin]

What's the context of him saying this ?
If he's saying it to someone, we have to ask if he's being honest this time.

[ the following is a transcript of an audio recording presented before the Galactic Senate on the afternoon of the first Empire Day; identities of all speakers verified and confirmed by voiceprint analysis]

PALPATINE: Why, Master Windu. What a pleasant surprise.

MACE WINDU: Hardly a surprise, Chancellor. And it will be pleasant for neither of us. PALPATINE: I'm sorry? Master Fisto, hello. MasterKolar, greetings. I trust you are well. Master Tiin—I see your horn has regrown; I'm very glad. What brings fourJedi Masters to my office at this hour? MACE WINDU: We know who you are. What you are. We are here to take you into custody. PALPATINE: I beg your pardon? What I am? When last I checked, I was Supreme Chancellor of the Republic you are sworn to serve. I hope I misunderstand what you mean by custody, Master Windu. It smacks of treason.

MACE WINDU: You're under arrest.

PALPATINE: Really, Master Windu, you cannot be serious. On what charge?

MACE WINDU: You're a Sith Lord!

PALPATINE: Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime.My philosophical out look is a personal matter. In fact— the last time I read the Constitution, anyway—we have very strict laws against this type of persecution. So I ask you again: what is my alleged crime? How do you expect to justify your mutiny before the Senate? Or do you intend to arrest the Senate as well?

MACE WINDU: We're not here to argue with you.

PALPATINE: No, you're here to imprison me without trial. Without even the pretense of legality. So this is the plan, at last: the Jedi are taking over the Republic.

MACE WINDU: Come with us. Now.

PALPATINE: I shall do no such thing. If you intend to murder me, you can do so right here. MACE WINDU: Don't try to resist.

[sounds that have been identified by frequency resonances to be the ignition of several lightsabers]

PALPATINE: Resist? How could I possibly resist? This is murder,you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you? Master Tiin—you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?

[sounds of scuffle]

KIT FISTO: Saesee—

AGEN KOLAR: [garbled; possibly "It doesn't hurt"(?)]

[sounds of scuffle]

PALPATINE: Help! Help! Security— someone! Help me! Murder! Treason!

[recording ends]

The confrontation in Palpatine's office.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Coming back to how the Republic might change; an idea occurred to me.

A Jedi takeover as described here is going to affect the Grand Army in a big way. The Clones tend to trust the Jedi, yes, but they're not the only ones to consider. On Coruscant, the GAR is represented by the Coruscant Guard and Republic High Command. The former is basically a clone formation like any other (albeit with some special units in some sources), but while it works with Jedi from time to time, it does not seem to have any permanently attached to it; unlike the Jedi Generals out in the Sector Armies. This, I am inclined to argue, means they don't have the same bond with the Jedi as the Sector Army clones do. As for the Republic High Command, it's basically the general staff headquarters; responsible for managing all Republic forces and coordinating the war effort. If the Jedi want to hold the Republic together, they will need the allegiance of both.

The Coruscant Guard could prove very tricky. As far as I can tell they are loyal to the Republic itself; while Palpatine is the legitimate Head of State, and the Jedi are legitimate officers of said state. By all rights, they should not be letting the Jedi walk into Palpatine's office and kill him; but then again, they won't know a thing about it until it's already happened. If Anakin tries to intervene as in canon, and in a panic calls the guards to help him, things could get ugly. Beyond that, it all depends on whether or not the Jedi have some obscure law that lets them do this; in which case the CG will have little choice but to stand aside until the matter is settled. Otherwise, I suspect the Jedi will have to lie to the CG, or Mind-Trick them, to get them out of the way; at least until they can get their takeover properly legalised.

The High Command is equally tricky, but creates its own possibilities. Whereas the CG is made up of clones, the RHC is made up of non-clone officers, possibly with some clone subordinates. They could be forgiven for becoming confused or panicking in a situation like this. The storyline I had in mind is that Admiral Tarkin steps up, keeping his cool and banging heads together, and emerging as the effective leader of the RHC. This creates a dilemma for the Jedi; they probably don't trust him, but taking him on could be dangerous. By the same token, Tarkin does not think much of the Jedi, and is bound to be suspicious of their motives; but might be persuaded to work with them to maintain order.

The result would likely be a compromise. Tarkin would agree to work with the Jedi for the sake of order and unity, but would insist that the Jedi give up their military ranks and role. The Jedi would probably be okay with this - as they never wanted that job anyway - but they might insist on some compromises. For one, they would want their pre-war mandate and freedoms back. For another, they might insist that the GAR be formally split into a separate army and navy; with Tarkin getting command of the navy. Tarkin would probably agree to all this; as I don't think he would be ready to pull a Napoleon, at least not at that stage.

[Adam Reynolds]

Was Tarkin in any way guilty of crimes before the rise of the Empire? Exposing his war crimes along with the others who were more directly involved in Palpatine's schemes might be a means of taking him out.

Tarkin was so quick to embrace Palpatine's plans that it really seems odd that he wasn't at least partially aware of them. As I understand he was considered one of Palpatine's agents in Legends, but in canon he seems to be in the clear at least on paper.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Was Tarkin in any way guilty of crimes before the rise of the Empire? Exposing his war crimes along with the others who were more directly involved in Palpatine's schemes might be a means of taking him out.

Tarkin was so quick to embrace Palpatine's plans that it really seems odd that he wasn't at least partially aware of them. As I understand he was considered one of Palpatine's agents in Legends, but in canon he seems to be in the clear at least on paper.

As far as I know, he never did anything illegal throughout his pre-Empire career. He did things the Jedi are unlikely to have approved of - notably his treatment of Qanah - but that doesn't seem to have been illegal, or harmed his career in any way. The only other thing I can think of is that Palpatine helped him to become Governor of Eriadu. That would attract Jedi suspicion, but it doesn't mean there's anything they can use against him.

On reflection, the Jedi would be deeply worried by Tarkin's rise to power. They would see a capable but utterly ruthless officer, with a mean streak a mile wide. There's also the matter of Ahsoka Tano's trial, but the Jedi didn't exactly cover themselves in glory there either. It would not be implausible for one or more Jedi hardliners to decide that he's too dangerous to be left alive; though killing him carries its own risks.

[Lord Revan]

Being a jerk with authorial mentality isn't a crime by itself and the Jedi would want to avoid any in suspicion that they would revert the Ruusan Reformation (it's semi canon IIRC as in the name and details might not be canon but there was a major reformation around 1000 years before the clone wars) or that the Jedi Council would replace the Senate long term.

Because of that a Purge of all people involved with Palpatine isn't really a realistic option and the Jedi would know this. Obviously this wouldn't mean those people wouldn't be monitored but imprisonment or death solely due to being associated with Palpatine isn't something that could be done without causing so much disruption within the Republic that damage would outweigh any potential benefits.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

The Ruusan Reformations are back in canon. The only detail mentioned is that they limited the powers of the Supreme Chancellor; said limits being overturned by Palpatine. There's also the Ruusan Armistice, which set standards for humane behaviour in wartime; standards which Saw Gerrera cheerfully broke, and for which Mon Mothma censured him.

The only thing complicating a re-canonization of the Battle of Ruusan - and the material surrounding it - is the fact that Ruusan is no longer a mystery planet. Anakin visited it (or at least a moon) during the Clone Wars, and Dooku mentioned it while trying to recruit Tarkin for the Separatists. It's a known world, though I suppose the Valley of the Jedi might not be.

Because of that a Purge of all people involved with Palpatine isn't really a realistic option and the Jedi would know this. Obviously this wouldn't mean those people wouldn't be monitored but imprisonment or death solely due to being associated with Palpatine isn't something that could be done without causing so much disruption within the Republic that damage would outweigh any potential benefits.

That, as they say, is about the size of it. The Jedi could find the Republic disintegrating under them, or a new, hostile government arising to challenge them.

[Lord Revan]

The Ruusan Reformations are back in canon. The only detail mentioned is that they limited the powers of the Supreme Chancellor; said limits being overturned by Palpatine. There's also the Ruusan Armistice, which set standards for humane behaviour in wartime; standards which Saw Gerrera cheerfully broke, and for which Mon Mothma censured him.

The only thing complicating a re-canonization of the Battle of Ruusan - and the material surrounding it - is the fact that Ruusan is no longer a mystery planet. Anakin visited it (or at least a moon) during the Clone Wars, and Dooku mentioned it while trying to recruit Tarkin for the Separatists. It's a known world, though I suppose the Valley of the Jedi might not be.

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me at all if the old battle fields were something "only a mad man enters" to the local population of Ruusan and the Valley of the Jedi is "lost" that way. It's not some commonly known tourist attraction but rather something deep within an area you generally don't want to enter (or at least is seen that way), only referred to in passing in some text.

Not mention the Jedi Order and the Republic government would have an interest at keeping the Location of the Valley of Jedi hidden as to not have to deal with (non-Sith) dark side users boosting themselves to near godlike powers with the help the Valley as for the Sith again it wouldn't surprise me at all if the location of the Valley was something Darth Bane kept to himself and no later Sith knew.

[NecronLord]

As Palpatine says in the novelization, it's not like there's some sort of law against any of that. Most people are taking the Jedi's word for it that Dooku isn't just some rogue Jedi if they even know that much.

We can pretty much discount this dueterocanonical source as it stands in apparent contradiction to a full on numbered movie, where Republic laws on the Sith are so strict that protocol droids are forbidden to so much as translate their language.

[NecronLord]

The Ruusan Reformations are back in canon. The only detail mentioned is that they limited the powers of the Supreme Chancellor; said limits being overturned by Palpatine. There's also the Ruusan Armistice, which set standards for humane behaviour in wartime; standards which Saw Gerrera cheerfully broke, and for which Mon Mothma censured him.

The only thing complicating a re-canonization of the Battle of Ruusan - and the material surrounding it - is the fact that Ruusan is no longer a mystery planet. Anakin visited it (or at least a moon) during the Clone Wars, and Dooku mentioned it while trying to recruit Tarkin for the Separatists. It's a known world, though I suppose the Valley of the Jedi might not be.

That, as they say, is about the size of it. The Jedi could find the Republic disintegrating under them, or a new, hostile government arising to challenge them.

This isn't a substantial change from the Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight lore, mind. The Old Jedi built the Valley over the battle-site and buried it - the thought bomb mound was in a sealed underground cavern and buried half a mile deep by the victorious Jedi in the game and likely they planned to finally disarm the Thought Bomb and free the spirits when it was safe to do. It was a profoundly unsafe area, and Yun (as one of Jerec's apprentices) had to shield the troopers and remant labourers digging the place out.

The location was known to the Jedi, Morgan Katarn got the map from Rahn, a Jedi survivor, and custodian of the map. Anakin going there as a Jedi and Dooku knowing about the place doesn't stop that being recanonized, as the Jedi order already had the route to go there in the original story.

The tie in novellas (which are excellent!) At the immediate aftermath of the battle, releasing the trapped spirits (or taming them for power as Jerec planned) was impossible and only became possible pretty much at the time that Jerec and Kyle Katarn went there.

I'd presume the Jedi regularly visited to do feasibility studies on releasing the spirits from torment. If Order-66 happened it would probably be a event for the the Archives of the Order. 'On this day the High Council visited Ruusan and excavated the Valley of the Jedi, bringing peace to its spirits' or something. Given they took the time to build a tiered arena around the thought bomb mound, I'd presume they planned to return as a group. (Of course, if you are a GM looking for content post Order-66, you could absolutely send your jedi player characters, it's a whole underground complex with traps and mad spirits, the works).

Really the Jedi were pretty responsible with the thing in the DF2JK lore, as far as sealed evils in a can went. They went out of their way to prevent travelers entering its zone of madness and so on.