Would Starfleet still be Starfleet if they had marines?

[Solauren]

Who said anything about the standard load out? Did you not read where I said it would be situational?

I wrote above....
For typical 'Away Missions' we see, the mini-force field would be useful. But most away missions are expected to be non-combat, so more isn't needed. (Or - "We're hoping to diffuse the situation, so we don't want to appear like we want to fight", so more might be a bad idea.)

So, it gets down to "We are going into a combat situation" scenarios.

Standard load out is fine most of the time, especially keeping with Starfleet and Federation policy of non-violence. However, when violence is the situation (i.e during the Dominion War), better load outs are needed.

[Adam Reynolds]

The dialog about the transporter rifle also mentions that Starfleet abandoned it because they got phasers working in those conditions. So not the best example.

I don't see why we should take O'Brien's word at face value when he was so obviously wrong about the nature of that rifle. It makes more sense that he was sprouting propaganda about an obvious assassination weapon.

If that weapon worked fine without the transporter, it really makes no sense that they were not used against the Borg. But then there are plenty of obvious tactics that would defeat the Borg and are never used, so this really isn't any different.

[Crazedwraith]

We should take O'Brien's word as canon, there's no canon evidence the writers intended him as being lying or wrong.

The whole 'it was as an assassination weapon' is the usual 'let's twist things so Trek is grimdark' thing that happened during debates.

[Solauren]

I agree, O'brien probably believed what he spoke.

However, I doubt it was meant as an assassination weapon. Otherwise, why leave it out in public databases? Even ones that are Starfleet restricted?

[bilateralrope]

If that weapon worked fine without the transporter, it really makes no sense that they were not used against the Borg. But then there are plenty of obvious tactics that would defeat the Borg and are never used, so this really isn't any different.

They had the replicator patterns. O'Brien would have noticed if the transporter was part of them. Which means it works fine without the transporter. His engineering knowledge should be enough for him to know the truth of how well current and previous phasers worked under that type of technobabble.

So yes, it would be a good anti-borg weapon. As would any firearm replicators can produce that can penetrate borg cybernetics. But phasers would a better choice for the standard combat loadout. By standard combat loadout, I mean the gear that is sitting in the armory ready to be taken when deploying people on a combat mission.

Who said anything about the standard load out? Did you not read where I said it would be situational?

Sorry about that. I'm just a bit annoyed at how this discussion of if Starfleet should have a better standard combat loadout keeps veering into talking about tech that would only be useful in very specific situations.

[Ralin]

So I don't know off the top of my head how many times ground combat with the Borg was a thing, but like...I'm pretty sure the Borg could adapt to bullets. It's called 'wearing armor.' Assuming they didn't also have some sort of portable forcefield technology that could be adapted against projectiles that isn't part of their standard loud out. It's a good trick to blindside the Borg with if they aren't prepared for it at that particular time, but not switching to bullet-firing weapons (which would require additional training and such) as standard armament to deal with them really doesn't seem like that big of a blindspot.

[bilateralrope]

Maybe the borg can protect themselves to bullets. Maybe not, because we are talking about a faction that sticks to melee combat even when ranged stun weapons would suit their goals. But the borg haven't protected themselves from bullets so far. So it seems worthwhile to at least use bullets until they deploy some protection instead of taking weapons that everyone knows will only work for a few shots. At a minimum, deploying the protection vs bullets will take longer than frequency adapting.

As for the training, that might be an issue. Depending on how many crew members have learned to use bullet weapons on the holodeck for their own amusement. If you're already going to be replicating firearms specifically for the borg, you can afford to give each person on the away team whichever firearm they are most comfortable with.

[Gandalf]

Maybe the borg can protect themselves to bullets. Maybe not, because we are talking about a faction that sticks to melee combat even when ranged stun weapons would suit their goals. But the borg haven't protected themselves from bullets so far. So it seems worthwhile to at least use bullets until they deploy some protection instead of taking weapons that everyone knows will only work for a few shots. At a minimum, deploying the protection vs bullets will take longer than frequency adapting.

To go all risk assessor, the Borg might encounter so few people using bullets as opposed to energy weapons that it's not an issue worth considering on the Collective's side. The type of armour necessary to stop the kinetic attacks might be deemed too expensive materially, too much effort to affix, and might affect other key drone functions.

[bilateralrope]

To go all risk assessor, the Borg might encounter so few people using bullets as opposed to energy weapons that it's not an issue worth considering on the Collective's side. The type of armour necessary to stop the kinetic attacks might be deemed too expensive materially, too much effort to affix, and might affect other key drone functions.

It's possible that deploying kinetics against them will force them to reevaluate those calculations. But that still leaves bullets giving the advantage for a short time.

Plus seeing how long it takes the borg to deploy anti-kinetic defenses seems like useful information on their shipboard manufacturing capability.

[madd0c0t0r2]

What's the envisioned role for these marines?

Classic American regime change? Saving the galaxy from the domino of commie sphere of control?

[youtube]http://youtu.be/eFvxqQTh3m4[/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

[Tribble]

To go all risk assessor, the Borg might encounter so few people using bullets as opposed to energy weapons that it's not an issue worth considering on the Collective's side. The type of armour necessary to stop the kinetic attacks might be deemed too expensive materially, too much effort to affix, and might affect other key drone functions.

It's possible that deploying kinetics against them will force them to reevaluate those calculations. But that still leaves bullets giving the advantage for a short time.

Plus seeing how long it takes the borg to deploy anti-kinetic defenses seems like useful information on their shipboard manufacturing capability.

One thing they could try is an initial round of volley fire rather than randomly shooting; everyone picks their own drone and they all shoot at once. That should give the Borg less time to analyze the algorithms being used and they may be able pick off a few more drones before adaptation sets in.

After that, another tactic is concentrating their firepower and shooting a Borg drone with more than one weapon at the same time. Unless being next to a deflector dish / warp core, set phasers to full power and random settings, concentrate all firepower on a couple of drones until they go down, then go after the next. Borg adaptation has its limits, and if Borg ships can be eventually overwhelmed despite adaptation it stands to reason so can the drones.

[bilateralrope]

One thing they could try is an initial round of volley fire rather than randomly shooting; everyone picks their own drone and they all shoot at once. That should give the Borg less time to analyze the algorithms being used and they may be able pick off a few more drones before adaptation sets in.

I have some memory from TNG of them setting each phaser to a different frequency, so that the borg have to adapt to each phaser separately. Which sounds like it would be more useful in the tight corridors of a starship than trying to coordinate volley fire.

After that, another tactic is concentrating their firepower and shooting a Borg drone with more than one weapon at the same time. Unless being next to a deflector dish / warp core, set phasers to full power and random settings, concentrate all firepower on a couple of drones until they go down, then go after the next. Borg adaptation has its limits, and if Borg ships can be eventually overwhelmed despite adaptation it stands to reason so can the drones.

That's worth trying. But there are two questions:
- How many phasers need to be targeting the same drone to overcome adaption ?
- How many phasers can Starfleet hit a single drone with simultaneously ?

In space, a borg ship can be attacked from all directions. But the corridors of a starship limit how many people can have line of sight to a single target, possibly preventing Starfleet from getting enough phasers hitting the same drone.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I should point out that in Archer's time they did have MACOs, which are marines in everything but name.

[Tribble]

I have some memory from TNG of them setting each phaser to a different frequency, so that the borg have to adapt to each phaser separately. Which sounds like it would be more useful in the tight corridors of a starship than trying to coordinate volley fire.

I was thinking more along the lines of STFC when they are trying to get access to Engineering and there was a bunch of Borg standing / regenerating outside. Since the crew ought to have known the Borg would attack at some point, IMO when Picard went to try and access the door they should have tried shooting all the drones at once rather than fire at them one / two at a time. Although it was confined corridors, they should have been able to hit more drones than they did. Every second counts when it comes to adaptation.

That's worth trying. But there are two questions:
- How many phasers need to be targeting the same drone to overcome adaption ?
- How many phasers can Starfleet hit a single drone with simultaneously ?

In space, a borg ship can be attacked from all directions. But the corridors of a starship limit how many people can have line of sight to a single target, possibly preventing Starfleet from getting enough phasers hitting the same drone.

The tactic was never tried IIRC so we don’t know. But I imagine at some point multiple phasers with different frequencies hitting a drone’s shield simultaneously should bring it down. Plus hitting it with multiple weapon types (phasers and phaser rifle shots etc) should help.

Lore's renegades aside, the drones aren’t exactly known for their stealth and dodging abilities so hitting them shouldn’t be much of a problem (focus on the ones in front?). And if accuracy is a problem maybe have multiple phaser firing at max settings on wide beam?

Basically the idea is concentrating fire and lighting the drones up till they drop. Given that in “the Raven” 7 of 9 had shields without her full exoskeleton their shield generators can’t be that large. There’s got to be a capacity limit that could be overwhelmed even if they had adapted.

[bilateralrope]

Every second counts when it comes to adaptation.

I don't recall adaption ever being about "you have x seconds from the first shot", more "you get y shots before the phaser becomes ineffective"

And if accuracy is a problem maybe have multiple phaser firing at max settings on wide beam?

Accuracy is not the problem. The problems would be:
- Getting enough people with simultaneous line of sight to the drone.
- Communicating which drone they are to shoot
- Being able to move from one drone to another quickly enough when nobody has had any training or drills in this tactic.

Oh and since we are talking about pumping as much energy as possible into a drone, wide beam is a terrible idea. Same strain on whatever part of the phaser limits max output, but the energy is spread across the width of the beam.

There’s got to be a capacity limit that could be overwhelmed even if they had adapted.

Sure. But if that requires more than 3 or 4 people shooting at the same drone, it's going to get tricky to get enough people to focus fire at the same drone in the corridors of a starship.

[Adam Reynolds]

I should point out that in Archer's time they did have MACOs, which are marines in everything but name.

This is an interesting example, because MACOs are ditched as soon as Starfleet becomes Starfleet proper. They almost feel like they were treated as a necessary evil. Which probably isn't a bad idea for this sort of thing.

We also see in Star Trek Beyond that Krall was a transformed Starfleet officer who was once a MACO, and who believed that modern Starfleet had become too soft. Star Trek Beyond really was underrated in a lot of ways. It was by far the best of the reboot series, probably because it was made by someone who seems like they actually liked Star Trek.

[Tribble]

I don't recall adaption ever being about "you have x seconds from the first shot", more "you get y shots before the phaser becomes ineffective"

Time should still be a factor though.

If were purely a matter of y shots before phaser becomes ineffective with time having no impact, and (for example) it took 2 shots before they adapted, that would mean that if 5 Borg were shot at the same time with a frequency they had never adapted to, 3 would automatically survive, even though they had no time to analyse the frequency and adjust their shields.

To me it makes more sense that Borg adaptation is a function of number of shots they have been exposed to and the amount of time they have had to analyze each hit.

Pure speculation though as we haven't seen anyone try shooting a bunch of them at the same time.

Accuracy is not the problem. The problems would be:
- Getting enough people with simultaneous line of sight to the drone.
- Communicating which drone they are to shoot
- Being able to move from one drone to another quickly enough when nobody has had any training or drills in this tactic.

We know your typical star trek corridor (especially in a Starfleet ship) seems to allow for at least for 3-4 people abreast. If there is enough time, you could have people crouching / lying in front as well.

For they volley fire tactic, the leader of the group could indicate that every member picks a drone then fires at the leaders command. The Borg generally don't react quickly, don't tend to use long range weapons and tend to stick to walking speed.
For concentrated fire, perhaps designate 1-2 members per group who shoot first to direct the beams.
And ya, the effectiveness of these tactics would depend on them being practiced... which is why they should be practiced, if they do indeed work. But they should at least be attempted first, especially the ladder after the Borg have adapted to being hit from a single weapon.

Oh and since we are talking about pumping as much energy as possible into a drone, wide beam is a terrible idea. Same strain on whatever part of the phaser limits max output, but the energy is spread across the width of the beam.

True, though that may work both ways, since the Borg drone will technically also have to try and cover more of its body with several wide beams of differing frequencies at the same time. IIRC we've never seen wide beams from hand phasers hit shields, and for that matter, we haven't seen what would happen if several wide beams are fired at once in a confined corridor on a single target.

Sure. But if that requires more than 3 or 4 people shooting at the same drone, it's going to get tricky to get enough people to focus fire at the same drone in the corridors of a starship.

True, and we don't know if it works since its never been tried. Though I imagine though the odds of success should be better than switching over to melee and/or running away the moment phasers lose their effectiveness, especially if it only takes 2-3 people shooting at the same drone. Unless you are Worf or Data of Course.

Also, maybe lure some drones into the Shuttlebay entrance and start blasting them with the Shuttlecrafts' weapons; I imagine they wouldn't fare too well against that lol.

[Crazedwraith]

If you want to hit a drone with multiple phase beams at once. Rather than coordinate mutliple redshirts at once, build some kind of phaser volley gun. Strap the guts of seven hand phases to a stock and call it a day.

If we were going full on fanwank equip federation marines type deal. I'd give them some kind of very reliable firearm as a base and give it and underbarrel phaser for the diversity of effects and stun option if needed.

[NecronLord]

Are we moaning about the lack of body armour in 2022?

Away Team Body Armour/Harness
Low profile textured security uniforms in use by bodyguards
And a range of EVA suits.

As to ergonomics, that was principally fixed with the First Contact rifle many years ago, and other eras don't use the dustbuster at all.

What tickles me about these conversations, is why they come up much more often than why starfleet doesn't use probes more.

There was an episode of Discovery recently where they decided to send one of their DOTs into a negative space wedgie and the audience had to watch the cute robot scream, rather than someone saying 'launch a type V probe.'

And of course, every away team should be preceded by a probe, as someone mentioned Stargate, something like a MALP or an goa'uld or imperial probe droid would be ideal.

That would however make it harder for the away teams to get into danger.

If that weapon worked fine without the transporter, it really makes no sense that they were not used against the Borg. But then there are plenty of obvious tactics that would defeat the Borg and are never used, so this really isn't any different.

The borg habitually wear body armour, the majority of the suit comes off, and is clearly intended to have a protective function. This isn't counting tactical drones, even. The Carassians and Klingons also have body armour as part of their battledress too.

Picard killed Ensign Lynch with a tommy gun at short range with sustained fire, that doesn't mean that every scenario will go like that, particularly if the borg simply note it down and bring more tactical drones next time.

It just doesn't do shit against phasers.

[Crazedwraith]

I did mention both MACOs and Discovery's gear in my first post.

^ Harder but not impossible. SG Teams still run into issues every week after all.

[NecronLord]

The SG teams run into issues because the MALP can be defeated by stairs, of course. A probe with the tech level of the DOT or an Exocomp would be a lot more useful.

They also have to get back to a fixed location to bug out, or did until they got the asgard transporters, and even those are only sometimes available.

Mind, if the show comes back I expect a lot more drone use in line with RL military developments. That'll be interesting!

But yeah, lack of probe use is a LOT more of a Suspension of Disbelief problem given Starfleet's mission if you think about it.

[madd0c0t0r2]

Isn't SG also constrained by the gates? They can send a robot through and get data back, but can't just scan the area through the gate. Some gates go to instant death situations like black holes, while Star Trek, generally, is teleporting people down onto a planet that's been remote scanned to an inch of it's life for atmosphere, lifesigns ect.

[NecronLord]

Isn't SG also constrained by the gates? They can send a robot through and get data back, but can't just scan the area through the gate. Some gates go to instant death situations like black holes, while Star Trek, generally, is teleporting people down onto a planet that's been remote scanned to an inch of it's life for atmosphere, lifesigns ect.

Yeah they've got environmental conditions generally OK but in terms of seeing if there's angry mugato near the beam in site or so on, a probe would be incredibly useful.

[madd0c0t0r2]

Isn't SG also constrained by the gates? They can send a robot through and get data back, but can't just scan the area through the gate. Some gates go to instant death situations like black holes, while Star Trek, generally, is teleporting people down onto a planet that's been remote scanned to an inch of it's life for atmosphere, lifesigns ect.

Yeah they've got environmental conditions generally OK but in terms of seeing if there's angry mugato near the beam in site or so on, a probe would be incredibly useful.

Memory alpha has a good one:

According to Commander Jack Ransom, at some point prior to 2380, "horned gorillas, sentient tar, [and] spores that make you hook up with your best friend's sister" were all types of disasters that he had personally experienced on away missions that should have been a walk in the park. (LD: "Temporal Edict")

Thing is, unless the Mugato actually attacks the probe, do we have any clarity that the sensors on the probe would give more assurance than the ship sensors from orbit?

[Crazedwraith]

Are jokes from the joke show really considered reliable sources of information?