Ukraine reacts to fears of Russian invasion as troops build up at the border

[His Divine Shadow]

I am not sure... but I think both sides might be trying to win.

[Solauren]

Most of the world can not afford to let Ukraine lose.

The nations of the world are going to keep putting money, material, and soldiers into the Ukraine.

Eventually, Russia should grin itself out. And then Putin will probably be removed.

Really, it's the only scenario that can be allowed to happen. Otherwise, Putin will probably be emboldened, and start trying to annex all the former Warsaw Pact territories, and anywhere Russia might have a 'historical claim' to.

[Lord Revan]

Most of the world can not afford to let Ukraine lose.

The nations of the world are going to keep putting money, material, and soldiers into the Ukraine.

Eventually, Russia should grin itself out. And then Putin will probably be removed.

Really, it's the only scenario that can be allowed to happen. Otherwise, Putin will probably be emboldened, and start trying to annex all the former Warsaw Pact territories, and anywhere Russia might have a 'historical claim' to.

And the thing is Alaska is one of those places Russia has a "historical claim" to, and you can bet that apart from maybe Trump no US president is stupid enough to just give a state to another country.

Also you can bet that once Russia has reach its historical borders they manufacture claim to the rest of the planet or simply use some drunken boast a Czar once made or something like that to justify a claim.

The idea that Putin would stop his conquest at any point out of his free will is naive at best.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Most of the world can not afford to let Ukraine lose.

The nations of the world are going to keep putting money, material, and soldiers into the Ukraine.

Eventually, Russia should grin itself out. And then Putin will probably be removed.

Really, it's the only scenario that can be allowed to happen. Otherwise, Putin will probably be emboldened, and start trying to annex all the former Warsaw Pact territories, and anywhere Russia might have a 'historical claim' to.

And the thing is Alaska is one of those places Russia has a "historical claim" to, and you can bet that apart from maybe Trump no US president is stupid enough to just give a state to another country.

Also you can bet that once Russia has reach its historical borders they manufacture claim to the rest of the planet or simply use some drunken boast a Czar once made or something like that to justify a claim.

The idea that Putin would stop his conquest at any point out of his free will is naive at best.

The USA did buy Alaska from Russia 150 years ago (and it's a good thing they did), but Putin wouldn't let a fact like that get in his way.

They basically pulled did what the Allies did twice in World War 2, pretending the counterattack was going to happen in one place while launching it in another and taking the enemy by complete surprise.

[The Infidel]

Most of the world can not afford to let Ukraine lose.

The nations of the world are going to keep putting money, material, and soldiers into the Ukraine.

Eventually, Russia should grin itself out. And then Putin will probably be removed.

Really, it's the only scenario that can be allowed to happen. Otherwise, Putin will probably be emboldened, and start trying to annex all the former Warsaw Pact territories, and anywhere Russia might have a 'historical claim' to.

And the thing is Alaska is one of those places Russia has a "historical claim" to, and you can bet that apart from maybe Trump no US president is stupid enough to just give a state to another country.

Also you can bet that once Russia has reach its historical borders they manufacture claim to the rest of the planet or simply use some drunken boast a Czar once made or something like that to justify a claim.

The idea that Putin would stop his conquest at any point out of his free will is naive at best.

He might try to take some non-NATO countries, but the second a Russian soldier sets his foot on a NATO country, including the Baltic ones, he will be at direct war with NATO. Article 5 of NATO stands firm. The General Secretary of NATO have stated this multiple times and Putin knows this.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

GHETTO EDIT: By "they", I meant Ukraine

[Lord Revan]

Most of the world can not afford to let Ukraine lose.

The nations of the world are going to keep putting money, material, and soldiers into the Ukraine.

Eventually, Russia should grin itself out. And then Putin will probably be removed.

Really, it's the only scenario that can be allowed to happen. Otherwise, Putin will probably be emboldened, and start trying to annex all the former Warsaw Pact territories, and anywhere Russia might have a 'historical claim' to.

And the thing is Alaska is one of those places Russia has a "historical claim" to, and you can bet that apart from maybe Trump no US president is stupid enough to just give a state to another country.

Also you can bet that once Russia has reach its historical borders they manufacture claim to the rest of the planet or simply use some drunken boast a Czar once made or something like that to justify a claim.

The idea that Putin would stop his conquest at any point out of his free will is naive at best.

He might try to take some non-NATO countries, but the second a Russian soldier sets his foot on a NATO country, including the Baltic ones, he will be at direct war with NATO. Article 5 of NATO stands firm. The General Secretary of NATO have stated this multiple times and Putin knows this.

Putin knows this but he's gambling on the idea that NATO isn't willing start a Nuclear war over retaking the Baltic.

That's one the reasons the Ukrainian counterattack is such a big deal, if Russian isn't able to subjugate and annex the Baltic (and possibly Finland as well) before NATO can gather forces to aid those countries the whole Russian plan breaks down and the Russian army hasn't really been winning awards with their performance lately.

[The Infidel]

And the thing is Alaska is one of those places Russia has a "historical claim" to, and you can bet that apart from maybe Trump no US president is stupid enough to just give a state to another country.

Also you can bet that once Russia has reach its historical borders they manufacture claim to the rest of the planet or simply use some drunken boast a Czar once made or something like that to justify a claim.

The idea that Putin would stop his conquest at any point out of his free will is naive at best.

He might try to take some non-NATO countries, but the second a Russian soldier sets his foot on a NATO country, including the Baltic ones, he will be at direct war with NATO. Article 5 of NATO stands firm. The General Secretary of NATO have stated this multiple times and Putin knows this.

Putin knows this but he's gambling on the idea that NATO isn't willing start a Nuclear war over retaking the Baltic.

That's one the reasons the Ukrainian counterattack is such a big deal, if Russian isn't able to subjugate and annex the Baltic (and possibly Finland as well) before NATO can gather forces to aid those countries the whole Russian plan breaks down and the Russian army hasn't really been winning awards with their performance lately.

Well then. NATO has already moved lots of forces to the Baltic countries and other countries facing Russia. In regular, military capacity, I think NATO is about 2.5 times as powerful as Russia, especially now that the latter has lost so much resources in Ukraine. I don't think using nukes will be necessary to stop current Russia, but NATO also has plenty of nukes, and if Russia starts using nukes, NATO _will_ lob nukes back within 30 minutes. This was the very doctrine of the cold war: A balance of terror. If you use nukes, the opponent have just the time to lob nukes back. Many countries have pledged to help Sweden and Finland if they're attacked before they are full members. NATO won't need to use nukes against a Russian attack on Balticum.

But yes, I absolutely agree. We cannot allow Ukraine to lose this one. Send everything we can to help them.

[Ralin]

Most of the world can not afford to let Ukraine lose.

Most? Really? America, Canada, much of Europe and some of Asia has a distinct interest in Russia losing here. How is the rest of the world particularly concerned beyond wanting food exports and the like to continue?

[Solauren]

Most of the world can not afford to let Ukraine lose.

Most? Really? America, Canada, much of Europe and some of Asia has a distinct interest in Russia losing here. How is the rest of the world particularly concerned beyond wanting food exports and the like to continue?

It's already been discussed, if you read the thread further.

[Broomstick]

And the thing is Alaska is one of those places Russia has a "historical claim" to, and you can bet that apart from maybe Trump no US president is stupid enough to just give a state to another country.

The USA did buy Alaska from Russia 150 years ago (and it's a good thing they did), but Putin wouldn't let a fact like that get in his way.

And some of the talking heads on Russian TV have addressed this, claiming that the US only leased Alaska and failed to return it at the end of said lease, comparing it to Hong Kong. Propaganda is an interesting thing.

Which makes me wonder if anyone saved the receipt from the sale. Maybe in the Smithsonian?

[Khaat]

Which makes me wonder if anyone saved the receipt from the sale. Maybe in the Smithsonian?

On display next to the receipt for the Louisiana Purchase?

[Broomstick]

Presumably there was some sort of documentation or correspondence, it's not like the two governments could have called each other over a telephone and come to a verbal agreement.

[LadyTevar]

Some New Bits of Important news:

MASS EXHUMATIONS AT IZYUM GRAVE SITES
445 new graves since the Russians took over. Men, women, children, many of the adults showing signs of torture, some still have a noose around their necks.

PUTIN SAYS COUNTER-OFFENSIVE WON'T CHANGE RUSSIA'S PLANS
Putin is holding fast to the claim that he's "in no hurry" and that "Russia has yet to deploy all its forces" in the Special Operation (not war, not invasion). But it looks like China isn't buying it, with Putin stating to Xi "we understand you have questions and concerns."

Questions and Concerns? Let's start with this:
RUSSIAN RETREAT EXPOSES MILITARY WEAKNESSES
They're Crowd-funding for SOCKS. For Flak Jackets. For 2-way Radios.
They're now raiding prisons for conscripts because they can't get young men to sign up to go fight. Those that do seem to be getting maybe a WEEK of training before being shipped to Ukraine.

[Lord Revan]

To be honest Russia seems to be thinking they won't get caught in their lies when pretty much anyone isn't buying it.

While we should remember that news from Ukraine might not be 100% truthful it seems like they're closer to the truth then the Russian side of things due things Ukrainians have said being something you could confirm via outside sources.

[Captain Seafort]

To be honest Russia seems to be thinking they won't get caught in their lies when pretty much anyone isn't buying it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the real audience (i.e. the Russian population) is buying it, because they're getting the overwhelming majority of their information from state TV/radio.

[Solauren]

One has to wonder if China, watching Russia's epic failure, is going

"You know, maybe we need to loose ties with Russia, and strengthen them with the US and NATO...."

[LadyTevar]

One has to wonder if China, watching Russia's epic failure, is going

"You know, maybe we need to loose ties with Russia, and strengthen them with the US and NATO...."

I know I would be. Especially since Russia had to buy weapons back from North Korea. One would think the Russians would not need that kind of aid, but more and more there's several signs that Russia is a Paper Tiger and Ukraine is the Scissors.

As for Ukraine, yes they are also bragging, but for the Serious Issues, like the graves in Izyum, they're bussing in Foreign Correspondents to make sure it's Documented. Ukraine wants everyone to see what Russia has done.

Now, that's not to say that the Ukrainians couldn't be torturing Russian prisoners 'tit for tat', but I think Ukraine is trying to keep the High Moral Ground here.

[Ralin]

One has to wonder if China, watching Russia's epic failure, is going

"You know, maybe we need to loose ties with Russia, and strengthen them with the US and NATO...."

I think the national government considers that a non-viable option for a variety of reasons and sees themselves in a position where they have to lean towards supporting Russia as an ally despite probably privately thinking the war was a dumbass and terrible move that has made the world a worse place.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

One has to wonder if China, watching Russia's epic failure, is going

"You know, maybe we need to loose ties with Russia, and strengthen them with the US and NATO...."

I think the national government considers that a non-viable option for a variety of reasons and sees themselves in a position where they have to lean towards supporting Russia as an ally despite probably privately thinking the war was a dumbass and terrible move that has made the world a worse place.

Apparently Putin's meeting with Jinping didn't go as well as he hoped it would so that's not out of the question.

[Bedlam]

Now, that's not to say that the Ukrainians couldn't be torturing Russian prisoners 'tit for tat', but I think Ukraine is trying to keep the High Moral Ground here.

Ukraine as a government might be, I don't know if each individual soldier is likely to think quite the same. I suspect quite a few 'collaborators' (i.e. people who helped the Russians, and people who didn't have a choice, and people I never really liked all that much for various reasons) might go missing in the recaptured areas and I doubt journalists will be getting bussed to where they end up.

[Broomstick]

Regrettably, that sort of thing is a feature of any war-torn area. Probably less so these days, what with all sorts of ways to get evidence and documentation, but it will still happen because people are people and some of those people are shits.

[LadyTevar]

Regrettably, that sort of thing is a feature of any war-torn area. Probably less so these days, what with all sorts of ways to get evidence and documentation, but it will still happen because people are people and some of those people are shits.

People are people, and there is a lot of anger towards Russia at this moment. Bad things happen when people are angry.

It still doesn't explain why the Russians were deliberately targeting civilians for torture, why they have been deporting Ukrainian children to "foster homes", and why several Ukrainian civilians and captured soldiers have "gone missing".

[Zwinmar]

I'm waiting for the horror of the Russian concentration camps to come out. I suspect there is a Buchenwald or Auschwitz analog were they shipped the people from Mariupol and other areas to.

[LadyTevar]

I'm waiting for the horror of the Russian concentration camps to come out. I suspect there is a Buchenwald or Auschwitz analog were they shipped the people from Mariupol and other areas to.

A few pages back in this thread, I shared a link from BBC News where a Ukrainian Civilian had been kidnapped alongside his elderly father, taken to a Russian prison camp, and tortured daily alongside the other prisoners, all of whom were being accused of being Nazi sympathizers. forget if he escaped or was set free, but however he got home, he has no idea what happened to his father.

The camps are there. I'm sure we will find several massive gravesites full of Ukrainians who died under torture. The question is -- will we find out WHY, and will we be able to punish those responsible.