BREAKING NEWS: FBI RAIDS TRUMP RESIDENCE IN MAR-A-LAGO FOR CLASSIFIED NUCLEAR DOCUMENTS, AMONG OTHERS

[Zaune]

Hopefully the DOJ finds enough about what he was doing with these classified documents to trigger the 14th amendment and bar him from holding office. I doubt that merely holding them is enough for that.

At which point his fan club collectively shit enough bricks to build that fucking border wall they wanted so badly and attempt to rise up in armed revolt. Again.

If Trump actually has any sort of coherent and thought-out plan beyond hoping his natural talent as a bullshitter can carry the day, it probably hinges on the not-unreasonable assumption that the Biden administration wants to avoid further bloodshed more than it wants to give him his just desserts.

[bilateralrope]

Hopefully the DOJ finds enough about what he was doing with these classified documents to trigger the 14th amendment and bar him from holding office. I doubt that merely holding them is enough for that.

At which point his fan club collectively shit enough bricks to build that fucking border wall they wanted so badly and attempt to rise up in armed revolt. Again.

If Trump actually has any sort of coherent and thought-out plan beyond hoping his natural talent as a bullshitter can carry the day, it probably hinges on the not-unreasonable assumption that the Biden administration wants to avoid further bloodshed more than it wants to give him his just desserts.

That seems likely to depend on which document(s) the DOJ decides to use for any prosecution. The speculation I've seen is that the DOJ is going to pick one or two "goldilocks" documents for any prosecution. Something very damming for Trump, but not too dangerous for the DOJ to publicly reveal. Any documents that they really want to keep secret, or stuff that someone could try to argue shouldn't have been classified, will not be mentioned.

Also, it might depend on who files the 14th amendment complaint. Every opponent Trump faces in the Republican primary is going to have an incentive to file it as soon as they know he's running.

Finally, there is the difficulty in arranging a sizeable riot when everyone is aware it could happen again and there isn't going to be anyone standing in the way of a police/national guard response with Biden in the White House.

[Ralin]

Kinda pointless to worry about his followers rioting and him trying to seize power when they've already done it. Anything he could possibly due is less harmful and less likely to cause bloodshed when he's out of the White House than when he's in it.

Finally, there is the difficulty in arranging a sizeable riot when everyone is aware it could happen again and there isn't going to be anyone standing in the way of a police/national guard response with Biden in the White House.

Other than the police not wanting to.

[Zaune]

Kinda pointless to worry about his followers rioting and him trying to seize power when they've already done it. Anything he could possibly due is less harmful and less likely to cause bloodshed when he's out of the White House than when he's in it.

Other than telling his followers to go out and commit mass shootings until the Democrats fold, because a non-trivial percentage of them would actually do it. I'd like to think that even Trump has enough survival instincts to realise that particular nuclear option would end badly for him, but he's largely got away with it all up to this point and his grip on reality is palpably slipping so who the fuck knows.

It is, unfortunately, a question that the Department of Justice has to consider: How many men walking into a school or a church or a street market with an AR-15 and shooting all the non-white people they can see while the local SWAT team sit around with their thumbs up their arses are they going to have to write off as the cost of nailing Trump on something substantial?

[Ralin]

Other than telling his followers to go out and commit mass shootings until the Democrats fold, because a non-trivial percentage of them would actually do it. I'd like to think that even Trump has enough survival instincts to realise that particular nuclear option would end badly for him, but he's largely got away with it all up to this point and his grip on reality is palpably slipping so who the fuck knows.

It is, unfortunately, a question that the Department of Justice has to consider: How many men walking into a school or a church or a street market with an AR-15 and shooting all the non-white people they can see while the local SWAT team sit around with their thumbs up their arses are they going to have to write off as the cost of nailing Trump on something substantial?

Can't say any of those things would be better if the guy doing it was president again.

Also, like, the Justice Department is supposed to make decisions like that based on whether an actual crime has been committed. Not whether the person who did it will throw a violent tantrum and kill people. If anything that's more of a reason to charge him with something.

[bilateralrope]

Kinda pointless to worry about his followers rioting and him trying to seize power when they've already done it. Anything he could possibly due is less harmful and less likely to cause bloodshed when he's out of the White House than when he's in it.

Finally, there is the difficulty in arranging a sizeable riot when everyone is aware it could happen again and there isn't going to be anyone standing in the way of a police/national guard response with Biden in the White House.

Other than the police not wanting to.

Put them in place guarding a political event that's likely to be targeted by a Trump mob before the mob gets there and the mob will likely attack them to get inside. Forcing them to defend themselves.

[Rogue 9]

Also, it might depend on who files the 14th amendment complaint. Every opponent Trump faces in the Republican primary is going to have an incentive to file it as soon as they know he's running.

Anyone in the Republican primary who does that will immediately lose the entire base. If you go at it from the angle of Trump being personally too tainted but you're going to pick up the MAGA mantle, you might pull it off. If you directly attack Trump, his base will not vote for you; see Liz Cheney.

[Ralin]

Anyone in the Republican primary who does that will immediately lose the entire base. If you go at it from the angle of Trump being personally too tainted but you're going to pick up the MAGA mantle, you might pull it off. If you directly attack Trump, his base will not vote for you; see Liz Cheney.

So what you're telling me is that the other Republican primary candidates need some sort of fall guy to do it for them?

[GrosseAdmiralFox]

Other than the police not wanting to.

It should be noted that the Capital Police did what they could. The problems were 1) their boss was a Trump pastie, and 2) they were caught flat-footed due in part to 1 and just the sheer size of the riot in question. Remember, riots are something to be feared for good reason, and why there is a specific type of police utilized in such situations.

[Zaune]

Also, like, the Justice Department is supposed to make decisions like that based on whether an actual crime has been committed. Not whether the person who did it will throw a violent tantrum and kill people. If anything that's more of a reason to charge him with something.

So how many dead kids do you consider an acceptable price for seeing Trump get his?

I'm not saying that letting him off lightly in return for not starting a war won't also have consequences, and potentially worse ones in the long run. But the potential for collateral damage is not something the prosecutors can afford to completely ignore either.

[Ralin]

So how many dead kids do you consider an acceptable price for seeing Trump get his?

I'm not saying that letting him off lightly in return for not starting a war won't also have consequences, and potentially worse ones in the long run. But the potential for collateral damage is not something the prosecutors can afford to completely ignore either.

I'm not convinced it will lead to an increased number of dead kids, and holy crap are we really saying that someone should potentially get a pass on major crimes if they have people standing by to shoot up a school or mall in retaliation? Is that really a route you want the US to go down? Because imagine what that could turn into once it starts being used by people who actually have dedicated shooters and an organization to send them instead of Trump shouting into the void and hoping some random follower makes it so.

[Ralin]

It should be noted that the Capital Police did what they could. The problems were 1) their boss was a Trump pastie, and 2) they were caught flat-footed due in part to 1 and just the sheer size of the riot in question. Remember, riots are something to be feared for good reason, and why there is a specific type of police utilized in such situations.

They did that time, yeah. Kudos were in order. Not going to assume that'll be true in the future.

[bilateralrope]

Also, it might depend on who files the 14th amendment complaint. Every opponent Trump faces in the Republican primary is going to have an incentive to file it as soon as they know he's running.

Anyone in the Republican primary who does that will immediately lose the entire base. If you go at it from the angle of Trump being personally too tainted but you're going to pick up the MAGA mantle, you might pull it off. If you directly attack Trump, his base will not vote for you; see Liz Cheney.

Ok. So maybe they wait until it's only them and Trump left in the primary.

Or they get a friend to file it and then claim that any links to the person who filed is a lie.

Other than telling his followers to go out and commit mass shootings until the Democrats fold, because a non-trivial percentage of them would actually do it. I'd like to think that even Trump has enough survival instincts to realise that particular nuclear option would end badly for him, but he's largely got away with it all up to this point and his grip on reality is palpably slipping so who the fuck knows.

The first time Trump even tries saying that, I expect a lot of people will file to get a court to order him off the internet. That might not work. But every shooter who follows Trump's instructions there makes Trump being forced to shut up more likely.

If he ignores that court order, that's going to force the courts to do something to silence him.

[bilateralrope]

Newest addition to Trump’s legal team sidelined in Mar-a-Lago search case

By Kaitlan Collins, CNN
Updated 2:55 PM EDT, Tue September 27, 2022

The newest addition to former President Donald Trump’s legal team, Chris Kise, has been sidelined from the Mar-a-Lago documents investigation less than a month after he was brought on to represent Trump in the matter, two sources familiar with the move tell CNN.

Kise is expected to remain on Trump’s legal team but is not leading the work related to the federal government’s investigation into how the former President handled 11,000 documents seized from his Florida home in August following a lengthy effort by the government to retrieve them. The reason for the shift in Kise’s role remains unclear and he may instead focus his efforts on the other investigations Trump is facing, which range from his business practices to the January 6 insurrection.

The move is notable given Kise, the former solicitor general for Florida, was brought on to the team after a weeks-long search and struggle to find someone willing to take on the case who was also experienced in Florida law. The legal strategy for fighting the Justice Department following the August seizure of over 100 documents marked as classified was also in disarray.

Kise’s hiring came with an unusual price tag of $3 million, paid for by Trump’s outside spending arm. The retainer fee, paid upfront, raised eyebrows among other lawyers on Trump’s team, given the former President has a developed a reputation for not paying his legal fees.

His sidelining will likely be read as another setback for Trump as he faces multiple investigations.

Trump spokesman Taylor Budowich said: “Chris Kise’s role as an important member of President Trump’s legal team remains unchanged, and any suggestion otherwise is untrue.”

Kise did not respond to a request for comment.

Kise had been viewed among Trump contacts as a serious white-collar attorney and trial lawyer, with Florida court chops. Before he came aboard, other lawyers on Trump’s team were perceived in legal circles to have made serious missteps in the investigation, such as not fully recognizing the legal risk of the documents investigation before the search of Mar-a-Lago, telling investigators all classified records had been turned over, missing opportunities to argue for executive privilege and having an appeals court deliver a drubbing against Trump’s bid to block classified documents in the investigation.

So far, Kise doesn’t appear to be deeply involved Trump’s other most serious criminal investigative risk – the Justice Department’s January 6 investigation. Kise was not present in a DC federal courthouse last week alongside three other Trump attorneys who are arguing for confidentiality around Trump’s conversations at the end of his presidency. They are attempting to block a federal grand jury from gathering information from an expanding circle of close Trump aides about his efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

Kise left his large law firm that he had been with for more than a decade, Foley & Lardner, to take the job as a solo practitioner. He previously worked for Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis’ transition team and has won four cases before the Supreme Court.

This is a lawyer who knew enough about Trump to demand payment before joining his legal team. A level of competence not often shown by Trump's lawyers. Suddenly he's not working on the classified documents issue. I wonder why. Did he anger Trump by advising him to shut up ?
Or does he want to focus on issues where he might be able to accomplish something ?

[LadyTevar]

This is a lawyer who knew enough about Trump to demand payment before joining his legal team. A level of competence not often shown by Trump's lawyers. Suddenly he's not working on the classified documents issue. I wonder why. Did he anger Trump by advising him to shut up ?
Or does he want to focus on issues where he might be able to accomplish something ?

I'm betting he saw that "I can declassify things by THINKING about it" and Noped right out of it.

[Ralin]

I'm betting he saw that "I can declassify things by THINKING about it" and Noped right out of it.

I dunno. That's not exactly a surprise to anyone who's been paying attention for the past several years, and he apparently was paying attention if he knew enough to demand payment in advance. These are both 'Can see Mount Tai' level things.

[Lord Revan]

I'm betting he saw that "I can declassify things by THINKING about it" and Noped right out of it.

I dunno. That's not exactly a surprise to anyone who's been paying attention for the past several years, and he apparently was paying attention if he knew enough to demand payment in advance. These are both 'Can see Mount Tai' level things.

Well it could be he sort of knew it but didn't realize it was actually meant as valid defense and not just "pandering to the base" comment and that along with the "if the president does it, it's not illegal" way of thinking was too much, and he left.

[Lost Soal]

I'm betting he saw that "I can declassify things by THINKING about it" and Noped right out of it.

I dunno. That's not exactly a surprise to anyone who's been paying attention for the past several years, and he apparently was paying attention if he knew enough to demand payment in advance. These are both 'Can see Mount Tai' level things.

Well it could be he sort of knew it but didn't realize it was actually meant as valid defence and not just "pandering to the base" comment and that along with the "if the president does it, it's not illegal" way of thinking was too much, and he left.

Oh he knew that was Trumps defence, he just had no intention of pleading it himself and getting censured. That's why every utterance of it in the 11th circuit was argument (completely legal) and zero evidence or affidavits.

[bilateralrope]

EXCLUSIVE: Trump considers allowing federal investigators to search Mar-a-Lago again

By Sara Murray, Kristen Holmes and Gabby Orr, CNN
Updated 10:11 PM EDT, Wed October 19, 2022

Donald Trump’s legal team is weighing whether to allow federal agents to return to the former President’s Florida residence, and potentially conduct a supervised search, to satisfy the Justice Department’s demands that all sensitive government documents are returned, sources tell CNN.

In private discussions with Trump’s team as well as court filings, the Justice Department has made clear that it believes Trump failed to comply with a May subpoena ordering the return of all documents marked as classified and that more government records remain missing.

Some in Trump’s inner circle aren’t convinced there are any remaining government documents, after the FBI seized nearly 22,000 pages when they executed a search warrant at Mar-a-Lago in August.

The possibility of allowing federal officials to return to Trump’s property – likely with Trump’s own lawyers present – is just one option on the table as the Trump team grapples with how best to protect the former President from legal jeopardy. No firm decisions have been made while sources familiar with the situation say Trump’s legal team is continuing to weigh how accommodating or adversarial they should be toward the Justice Department.

“It’s a risk to invite a DOJ lawyer to lunch let alone back to Mar-a-Lago,” said a person close to Trump.

In the throes of multiple legal battles and hoping to alleviate some of the pressure he is facing, Trump has recently signaled to aides and allies that he is open to a less adversarial approach toward the Justice Department – one that might swiftly resolve the records issue after weeks of contentious court proceedings, according to people familiar with the situation.

The approach comes even as Trump continues to indulge legal theories that the records he took with him at the end of his presidency are his personal property, an argument his team is making in court and that he first heard from conservative judicial activist Tom Fitton.

“The general belief in Trump World is that this is much ado about nothing and the sooner we get past it the better,” said a person close to Trump, adding that the former President has told allies he “wants to move on.”

Trump’s compliance with the grand jury subpoena potentially poses a distinct legal risk amid legal wrangling over whether the former President mishandled classified documents he retained after leaving the White House. In earlier court filings, prosecutors claimed that Trump’s team had not fully complied with a subpoena served in May and “efforts were likely taken to obstruct the government’s investigation.”

At least some of the battle to secure their return has been playing out behind the scenes in a court proceeding that is under seal, according to people familiar with the situation. One potential resolution could involve the Justice Department asking a judge to issue an order compelling the Trump team to work with DOJ to arrange for another search.

The Justice Department did not respond to a request for comment.

Trump could be reconsidering approach

Sources close to Trump said that the former President has become more amenable to the cooperative approach being advocated by some of his more experienced lawyers, including former Florida Solicitor General Chris Kise, who joined his legal team following the FBI search in August. Kise had faced headwinds from Trump and some of his more aggressive advisers.

Trump has favored a more pugilistic approach, even accusing federal investigators at one point of planting evidence during their search at Mar-a-Lago – a claim he has never substantiated in court.

As the midterm election draws closer and Trump grapples with his next political move, he and allies are eager for some relief from his web of legal troubles.

“He is worn down,” one source close to the former President said. “Getting one thing off his plate” would help him move forward.

A spokesperson for Trump declined to comment

Among the complicating factors has been Trump’s personal views on the document dispute. He initially claimed that his team had been fully cooperative with investigators and insisted on social media “ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS ASK,” for documents to be returned. Trump has since argued, on social media and in court filings, that the Mar-a-Lago documents are his property. “I want my documents back!” the former President said in early October.

As recently as last Thursday, Trump complained to donors at a roundtable at Mar-a-Lago that federal investigators “got to see everything” when they searched his residence and were conducting a “complete sham” investigation, according to a person familiar with his comments.

Trump has continued to complain to advisers and allies that he is being treated unfairly and different than past presidents, multiple sources said.

Legal risks for Trump attorneys

Some Trump allies also worry that the legal jeopardy lawyers currently face could grow worse the longer the records issue drags on.

Trump lawyer Christina Bobb had to hire her own lawyer after signing an attestation in June which declared that Trump’s team had conducted a “diligent search” to comply with the Justice Department’s subpoena and returned all documents with classified markings. Bobb, who was Trump’s custodian of records at the time, recently told federal investigators in a voluntary interview that the attestation had been drafted by another Trump lawyer, Evan Corcoran, for her to sign. A source with knowledge of the event said Bobb was rushed to Mar-a-Lago to sign the attestation, but she insisted on first adding a line that her knowledge was “based upon the information that has been provided” to her.

Two months later, the FBI searched Mar-a-Lago, recovering thousands of additional government documents, including more than 100 with classified markings.

Corcoran has insisted to colleagues that he does not believe he faces any legal risk and has not hired a lawyer, according to sources familiar with his situation.

A third Trump lawyer, Boris Epshteyn, had his cellphone seized by the FBI last month and has testified in front of a Georgia grand jury investigating efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

In her conversation with federal investigators, Bobb also discussed Epshteyn, said a source briefed on the matter.

Trump's team didn't have a choice the last time the DOJ searched Mar-a-Lago. So I don't understand why they think they will have a choice if the DOJ wants to conduct any further searches of Trump properties.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Not sure if this merits a separate thread but there would be a lot of overlap between the two as it concerns Big Orange:
January 6 insurrection: Donald Trump ordered to testify to US Capitol riot committee.

The US congressional committee investigating last year's Capitol riot have issued a formal command demanding Donald Trump provides a testimony under oath over his role in the events on January 6.

The nine-member panel issued a letter to Trump’s lawyers, demanding his testimony by November 14 and outlining a request for a series of corresponding documents, including personal communications between the former president and members of Congress as well as extremist groups.

“We recognise that a subpoena to a former president is a significant and historic action,” Chairman Bennie Thompson and Vice Chair Liz Cheney wrote in the letter to Trump.

Donald Trump ally Steve Bannon sentenced to jail for contempt of Congress
Nancy Pelosi seen saying she wanted to 'punch' Trump in January 6 footage
“We do not take this action lightly.”

Lawmakers say the former president “personally orchestrated” a multi-part effort to overturn the results of the 2020 election.

It is unclear how Trump and his legal team will respond to the subpoena. He could comply or negotiate with the committee, announce he will defy the subpoena or ignore it altogether. He could also go to court and try to stop it.

The subpoena is the latest and most striking escalation in the House committee’s 15-month investigation of the deadly January 6, 2021 insurrection, bringing members of the panel into direct conflict with the man they have investigated from afar through the testimony of aides, allies and associates.

The committee writes in its letter that it has assembled “overwhelming evidence” that Trump spread false allegations of widespread voter fraud, “attempting to corrupt” the justice department and pressured state officials, members of Congress and his own vice president to try to change the results.

But lawmakers say key details about what Trump was doing and saying during the siege remain unknown.

According to the committee, the only person who can fill the gaps is Trump himself.

The panel - comprised of seven Democrats and two Republicans - approved the subpoena for Trump in a surprise vote last week.

Every member voted in support.

The day after, Trump posted a lengthy memo on Truth Social, his social media website, repeating his false claims of widespread election fraud and expressing his “anger, disappointment and complaint” that the committee wasn’t investigating his claims.

He made no mention of the subpoena.

I can't wait to see how this plays out!

[Solauren]

Trump will either
#1 - Do whatever he can to avoid it, including but not limited to ; lawyers, medical issues (real or fake), not leaving the country.
#2 - If he is ever in front of them, he'll bitch and complain, and do everything in his power to avoid answering the questions.

[Lost Soal]

He'll just do what he did at his last deposition.
5th.
5th.
5th.

[LadyTevar]

He'll just do what he did at his last deposition.
5th.
5th.
5th.

If he's SMART, he'll do that. If he's well-coached by his Lawyers, he'll do that.
But if Pelosi is able to get him worked up, Trump will suddenly have diarrhea of the mouth and either self-incriminate or say enough shit that gets him jailed for Contempt anyway.
After all, he's not Clinton, able to take 8hrs of questioning with no emotion.

[bobalot]

This entire raid and it's aftermath is an example of the power of money and reluctance of American society to deal with law breaking by the Republican party and it's base.

Anybody else would already be in jail.

[LadyTevar]

This entire raid and it's aftermath is an example of the power of money and reluctance of American society to deal with law breaking by the Republican party and it's base.

Anybody else would already be in jail.

It's also a case of the law taking its time to make sure it's got it's ass covered before hitting them.