Avatar: Way Of Water *spoilers*

[Crazedwraith]

Jake Sully joins the Water Tribe. Not that Water tribe Though it's odd the title could still be mistaken for an A:TLA film. So I tagged spoilers so there will be spoilers starting now

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Initial thoughts after just coming back: It's the first film only bigger, underwater, and far too long. That's not entirely fair but... yeah that's kind of the short version.

Jake starts a family has four kids, including an adopted daughter that's played by Sigoury Weaver and is the virgin birth of her Avatar. Earth comes back with a shitload of ships and really opens up shop. Meanwhile Quaritch and some of his redshirts had their minds backed up and uploaded into Avatar bodies. So you may be seeing an issue here; some really contrived means to keep all the original cast (except Trudy I now realise) onboard and bring them back.

Jake was leading a resistance but when Quaritch comes after him, he flees to the water tribes and his family learn their ways. Eventually Quaritch learns where he is, commanders a whaler ship. (the new unobtainiam is super-whale brain-fluid that makes I immortal, I am not kidding). And there's a big ass final battle.

In the end analysis, this film is far too long, and caters far too much to James Cameron's love of the underwater. And it really is far too long, the same plot beats repeat themselves a good few times, which is Jake's kids fuck things up, go where they shouldn't and get in trouble, or get captured by Quaritch or both.

There's a point where his daughter is captured and tied up again and lampshades it. And I was just thinking 'that doesn't help, don't lampshade it, write it better')

And having gone to all the trouble of resurrecting Quaritch they of course don't kill him again. So really the whole film is pretty much awash plotwise and just for sceptical. (There is also the ongoing mystery of the not-Grace daughter for the sequels as well as she seems super connected to Eywa)

But still watchable enough once it gets going but I'd really prefer a intermission or two.

[Tribble]

Any particular reason why the humans didn’t, I don’t Know, agent orange and/or nuke the place? Or develop a bio weapon / virus that could wipe them out (surely if they could create avatars they could do that?)

[Bedlam]

They're certainly not subtle on the 'Human's are bastards' angle this time around, there no attempt to show why the humans are doing what they are doing outside of £Money$. The closest to a sympathetic human (outside of the one raised by Na'vi) is a marine biologist who seems to be mildly uncomfortable about working with space whalers but doesn't really do or even say anything about it.

Even the new unobtainian seems to be in place to make humans worse people, the original wasn't really defined but seemed to suggest some sort of power or spaceflight requirement which might have benefited everyone and although it was mined via the blowing up of giant trees looked like it could have been collected with much less harm the new one stopes aging and is clearly implied that only the very rich could get it and is obtained from the brains of sentient alien whales via killing them.

[Adam Reynolds]

Any particular reason why the humans didn’t, I don’t Know, agent orange and/or nuke the place? Or develop a bio weapon / virus that could wipe them out (surely if they could create avatars they could do that?)

Isn't this the same as the dropping giant rocks argument from the first movie?

Also, given that the MacGuffin is the whales that are also interconnected with the rest of life on the planet, the answer is obvious. It would destroy the very prize they are there to acquire. Whalers wouldn't kill all whales just to make capturing one slightly easier.

[Jub]

Any particular reason why the humans didn’t, I don’t Know, agent orange and/or nuke the place? Or develop a bio weapon / virus that could wipe them out (surely if they could create avatars they could do that?)

Isn't this the same as the dropping giant rocks argument from the first movie?

Also, given that the MacGuffin is the whales that are also interconnected with the rest of life on the planet, the answer is obvious. It would destroy the very prize they are there to acquire. Whalers wouldn't kill all whales just to make capturing one slightly easier.

They could at least send a competent military force that isn't weak to bows and arrows and rocks this time. FFS, even the Russian military isn't as completely awful as what we saw in the first movie.

[Batman]

What I took away from the first movie was that it 'wasn't' the actual Military but a hired mercenary force as the whole thing was an undertaking by a private company.

[Crazedwraith]

Oh god, not this bullshit again. Had enough of this 13 years ago.

To quote every other episode Pitch Meeting: "So the movie can happen".

[Jub]

What I took away from the first movie was that it 'wasn't' the actual Military but a hired mercenary force as the whole thing was an undertaking by a private company.

I don't think that excuses it, given how IRL PMCs operate and equip themselves. They tend to be ruthless and well-equipped, not mustache twirlingly stupid with gear that barely functions.

[Dass.Kapital]

What I took away from the first movie was that it 'wasn't' the actual Military but a hired mercenary force as the whole thing was an undertaking by a private company.

Hullo.

Yes, my takeaway from the first movie was that the Bad Guys were just over teched security guards.

In this Big Green People movie, they kind of plainly state that the bad guys were and always have been actual, professional, ranked military personel.

Hence the costs involved in backing them up.

That at least two of the Valkyrie ships are shown lowering their drive plumes into the atmosphere (With one deliberately shown torching pretty much everything) the humans could, if they wanted to, simply 'Glass the planet with antimatter fire' should they want to expend the fuel.

So many questions which are again unanswered. Yet some more 'Eye candy' easter egg scenery that might get used in the next movie. Though they still haven't explained the floating mountains. All the characters just seem to take that scenery for granted now.

There was 'Some' tweaking of the verti-bird designs. A slightly larger, four-rotor deal. All the human tech is still horribly vulnerable to getting arrows punched through the still seeming HUGE windows.

The addition of the Na'vi Medicine Women having two scenes where 'Native Medicne' is shown working was really cringy. The first scene was actually interesting/neat in showing social/character interaction. The second one? Didn't quite have me walking out of the cinema but, geeze it were annoying.

A movie with amazing technical brilliance. Both in the making and depiction. The plot, however, has all the depth of a kiddie-wading pool, sadly.

Still, my one and the only reason to see the film was answered. Now that we know humans can go all 'Altered Carbon' was the one thing bugging the heck out of me. I'll read other people's comments for the next few.

Cheers.

[Dass.Kapital]

I don't think that excuses it, given how IRL PMCs operate and equip themselves. They tend to be ruthless and well-equipped, not mustache twirlingly stupid with gear that barely functions.

Hullo.

My takeaway is that ALL the characters are moustache-twirlingly stupid.

The blue Na'vi for sitting on their tails and doing nothing but breed for the five to ten-year time it takes for the human ship turnaround.

The Green Na'vi for somehow being ignorant of the sapient ocean singers getting picked off and slaughtered. With one plot driving ocean singer actually being ostracised when their allied tribe of green people fought back and got wiped out (Which is my take away from the mind-meld dream sequence) while also not seeming to take any notice of the blue Na'vi almost getting wiped from existence (Are there more than one tribe of blue Na'vi?) or at least our Hero's tribe getting driven over.

The humans for being irredeemable sapients slaying purely for financial gain monsters.

There is so little plot that the characters are left with so little options due to how moustache-twirlingly stupid events are.

Cheers.

[Tribble]

Any particular reason why the humans didn’t, I don’t Know, agent orange and/or nuke the place? Or develop a bio weapon / virus that could wipe them out (surely if they could create avatars they could do that?)

Isn't this the same as the dropping giant rocks argument from the first movie?

Also, given that the MacGuffin is the whales that are also interconnected with the rest of life on the planet, the answer is obvious. It would destroy the very prize they are there to acquire. Whalers wouldn't kill all whales just to make capturing one slightly easier.

They could at least send a competent military force that isn't weak to bows and arrows and rocks this time. FFS, even the Russian military isn't as completely awful as what we saw in the first movie.

Wait, what?
*reads rest of comments*
So their goal now is to suck out space whale brains? To maybe help slow aging (for the rich)? They flew all the way over just for that? When they already at a level where they can create Navi clones capable of being remotely piloted via brain waves?

While they are at it, why not just have Kanye West as the ambassador? Or since this involves whales, resurrect captain Ahab?

At least in the first movie is was implied that it was all private companies which couldn’t get away with too much lest they get caught. And they weren’t all evilz people being evilz for the sake of evilz. Sounds like this one makes the first film look like Hamlet in comparison.

Who’s the villain this time? I’m guessing it’s not Edward Norton?

Edit: as for the floating mountains, I always thought it had something to do with the raw energon unobtainium on the planet, kinda like that episode of Beast Wars?

[Shroom Man 777]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G29DXfcdhBg[/youtube]

I dig the movie because of the accurate way it presents Americans.

James Cameron is the real man because on one hand he singlehandedly invented big blockbuster US military sci-fi aesthetics (Aliens) on screen but on the other hand he also shits on that ethos, even from the very beginning with the Vietnam allegories (just like Lucas where he intended the evil Empire to represent America). It's the best. And considering the current pace of environmental depletion since the first movie that totally didn't bother to be subtle about its message... I think it's fine to reiterate the message again and again, hamfisted-ness be damned.

The only thing unrealistic about the movies is that we don't see Selfridge melting down by buying a space social media company and holo-tweeting bullshit while weirdo nerds defend his cringey ass and RDA stonks plummet. THE WOKE NAVI MIND VIRUS MUST BE STOPPED!!!!111

Anyway...

The human presence there being limited in the equipment they can bring is not unrealistic? This is like complaining that conquistadores couldn't bring siege engines.

The very start of the movie shows the human landing party DECIMATING an entire region of the original Navi tribe territories by landing their torch ships in a way that the deceleration burn vaporized vast swaths of land, which they then converted to a forward operating base. Then they expanded their presence more and even built a maglev network. The Navi raids only succeed through forest cover and adding human weapons and moving too fast for human reinforcements that could overmatch them.

The final confrontation only went the Navi's way because the actual military presence was [SPOILER's] special forces scout group that was originally on a recon mission but commandeered a whaling craft not equipped for actual combat in order to pursue their target. The military presence in the final battle was actually LESS than that of the first movie climax which resulted in mass Navi casualties and was actually won by the humans before literal deus ex machina.

Anyway... the RDA gear isn't the actual reason for their defeat? In any conventional encounter RDA forces and equipment have the advantage. So that's an irrelevant point to bellyache about.

[Crazedwraith]

You just need to take the s out of https, mate.

and... sorry?

[Steve]

There was 'Some' tweaking of the verti-bird designs. A slightly larger, four-rotor deal. All the human tech is still horribly vulnerable to getting arrows punched through the still seeming HUGE windows.

No. No. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!! I can't take another decade of MUH GLASS CANOPIES! memes!



Here, go imagine you're piloting this around setting fire to Pandora while Navi arrows plink harmlessly off the cockpit rated to resist sustained 50mm autocannon fire for at least 15 seconds. Leave me alone! AAAAAAAAAGH!

[Crazedwraith]

The final confrontation only went the Navi's way because the actual military presence was [SPOILER's] special forces scout group that was originally on a recon mission but commandeered a whaling craft not equipped for actual combat in order to pursue their target. The military presence in the final battle was actually LESS than that of the first movie climax which resulted in mass Navi casualties and was actually won by the humans before literal deus ex machina.

Now I'm not double posting. I'll say that this is bang on in my opinion.

In this film there are significantly less forces involved in the final battle and the Na'avi forces are still almost wiped out without the intervention of a honking great sapient super-whale.

In the first film, it gave every advantage there was, massively outnumbering them, forcing them to go slow through favourable terrain to ambush them where their scanners didn't work, The only time we see the glass canopies get penetrated is when they are diving from above and the sensor blind flying rock location is literally the only place where that can happen.

(The second movie is looser about this but again they only really beat choppers with human weapons or from ambush or when they massively outnumber. The person taking out the gunships is Neytiri who has a lot of practice.)

And the only jury rigged barely junction equipment they have is the shuttle used as a bomber. Fancy that the mining company didn't bring dedicated strategic bombers to another planet for some reason.

I didn't want to re-litigate this again all these years later but... urgh.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yeah, Neytiri always has to maneuver higher than the VTOLs which were flying low this time as they were mowing down sea-skimming Na'vi water tribes... but the I don't think the water tribe forces were entirely decimated?

As for the glass canopies, again the prime resource extraction areas for minerals (which remains valuable and they still harvest) that cause EM interference and literally make mountains float. And that's another complication - there's terrain in the sky itself!

The vehicles that have glass canopies tend to be those that have to maneuver around challenging terrain in EM-heavy environments.

Those that DON'T rely on glass canopies are more ponderous ones that don't maneuver around, like the dozers in the first movie.

Anyway FFS we Jake's jungle forces use MANPADs and remote charges now so...

[Bedlam]

Yeah, Neytiri always has to maneuver higher than the VTOLs which were flying low this time as they were mowing down sea-skimming Na'vi water tribes... but the I don't think the water tribe forces were entirely decimated?

I don't think it's entirely clear what happens to most of the water tribe, they start the fight, take some casualties and then sort of vanish as the rest of the story focuses only on Jake's family. They mostly turn up again at the end so it looks like they just retreated at some point.

[Adam Reynolds]

So their goal now is to suck out space whale brains? To maybe help slow aging (for the rich)? They flew all the way over just for that? When they already at a level where they can create Navi clones capable of being remotely piloted via brain waves?

My follow up question would be why they don't just have digital immortality at this point given that they have brain uploading with Avatars for someone who very clearly died. Why cant they do the same with vat-grown human bodies for the ultra-wealthy a la Altered Carbon?

But again it comes back to the problem that we need a movie.

[Shroom Man 777]

So their goal now is to suck out space whale brains? To maybe help slow aging (for the rich)? They flew all the way over just for that? When they already at a level where they can create Navi clones capable of being remotely piloted via brain waves?

My follow up question would be why they don't just have digital immortality at this point given that they have brain uploading with Avatars for someone who very clearly died. Why cant they do the same with vat-grown human bodies for the ultra-wealthy a la Altered Carbon?

But again it comes back to the problem that we need a movie.

That's not a plot hole? I mean in these very forums we have already argued the point of who is the most realest "you," is the current "you" more "you" than the one recreated from stored memory after You #1 gets killed/atomized by transporters, etc. Who is the true Quarritch, etc. since Quarritch 1 has memories of being impaled by arrows and then he died whereas Quarritch 2 has no such memories since that was beyond the point of recording.

Plus would these Space Musk types WANT to entrust their memories to subordinates? They might be afraid that the Space Twitter WOKE MOB LEFTIST technicians might program WOKE MIND VIRUSES into their brain upload drives. And there's also issues of data entropy over time (of course meat brains have this too).

So clearly the Earth elite WANT biological immortality and prefer it over uploads. The United States has couped countries for banana companies and oil companies when switching to nuclear and EVs would've been the more natural option. A superpower with nuclear power capability making itself beholden to desert fundamentalists who monopolize an inferior form of energy from petrified dino bones and getting itself embroiled in regional conflicts for decades and using VTOLS defeated by paltry peasants? WHAT A PLOT HOLE UNREALISTIC DANCES WITH JARHEAD RIPOFF one note character they had the main villain pose in front of a MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner before withdrawing years later as the conflict continues/expands/worsens HOW HAMFISTED BOOO

Anyway I think there are no plotholes the main antagonists are Americans so this is logically consistent with other in-universe American actions throughout history so excellent thorough detailed worldbuilding by James Cameron as usual, we see his engineering background and meticulousness translate to excellent hard sci-fi

[Tribble]

So their goal now is to suck out space whale brains? To maybe help slow aging (for the rich)? They flew all the way over just for that? When they already at a level where they can create Navi clones capable of being remotely piloted via brain waves?

My follow up question would be why they don't just have digital immortality at this point given that they have brain uploading with Avatars for someone who very clearly died. Why cant they do the same with vat-grown human bodies for the ultra-wealthy a la Altered Carbon?

But again it comes back to the problem that we need a movie.

That's not a plot hole? I mean in these very forums we have already argued the point of who is the most realest "you," is the current "you" more "you" than the one recreated from stored memory after You #1 gets killed/atomized by transporters, etc. Who is the true Quarritch, etc. since Quarritch 1 has memories of being impaled by arrows and then he died whereas Quarritch 2 has no such memories since that was beyond the point of recording.

Plus would these Space Musk types WANT to entrust their memories to subordinates? They might be afraid that the Space Twitter WOKE MOB LEFTIST technicians might program WOKE MIND VIRUSES into their brain upload drives. And there's also issues of data entropy over time (of course meat brains have this too).

So clearly the Earth elite WANT biological immortality and prefer it over uploads. The United States has couped countries for banana companies and oil companies when switching to nuclear and EVs would've been the more natural option. A superpower with nuclear power capability making itself beholden to desert fundamentalists who monopolize an inferior form of energy from petrified dino bones and getting itself embroiled in regional conflicts for decades and using VTOLS defeated by paltry peasants? WHAT A PLOT HOLE UNREALISTIC DANCES WITH JARHEAD RIPOFF one note character they had the main villain pose in front of a MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner before withdrawing years later as the conflict continues/expands/worsens HOW HAMFISTED BOOO

Anyway I think there are no plotholes the main antagonists are Americans so this is logically consistent with other in-universe American actions throughout history so excellent thorough detailed worldbuilding by James Cameron as usual, we see his engineering background and meticulousness translate to excellent hard sci-fi

So I guess the plot is basically “evilz Americans come to do evilz because they are evilz and enjoy doing evilz, come watch if you wanna see evilz Americans get killed after doing evilz by the natives lead by the One Good American…and by whales!”

I mean, I’ll probably still watch on a cheap night just to see the graphics in a theatre as they are no doubt spectacular, but still.

I’d hardly call the first movie a masterpiece of of deep philosophical debate, but at least the humans were taking sides to varying degrees (like the main character for instance). Guess that was too subtle for Cameron this time

[Crazedwraith]

How dare a film... have bad guys?

Interestingly they repeat the oft assumed thing that Earth is dying so they have to come to Pandora but rather than unobtainium being crucial to saving Earth they now just want to move to Pandora full time. I was assuming RDA was out and this as a real effort at colonisation from EarthGov at first.

Except then it introduces the super-whale brainfluid immortality serum as the real reason and money earner so it's a little confused.

[madd0c0t0r2]

So I guess the plot is basically “evilz Americans come to do evilz because they are evilz and enjoy doing evilz, come watch if you wanna see evilz Americans get killed after doing evilz by the natives lead by the One Good American…and by whales!”

I mean, I’ll probably still watch on a cheap night just to see the graphics in a theatre as they are no doubt spectacular, but still.

I’d hardly call the first movie a masterpiece of of deep philosophical debate, but at least the humans were taking sides to varying degrees (like the main character for instance). Guess that was too subtle for Cameron this time

Wellll, you can always watch a documentry on American actions around Korea/Vietnam (avatar 1), the Philippines (Avatar 2), Gulfwar1up to Somalia Black Hawk Down (Presumably Avatar 3 will be a desert tale, with giant floating jellyfish oil, solar scarabs, hive mind motile dune coral and purple navi), Afghanistan/Iraq(set on Pandora's moon, with different navi tribes kept intentionally divided and squabbling and dependent on human tech to breathe while the mining corp attempts to build a stargate to minimise shipping times and a navi resistance movement work with their planetary mind to try and 'terraform' human cyberspace. We see more of earth, and the effects that PTSD human miners have with their dreams of jungles and slow obsession with recreating pandora at home to try and reduce the dissonance they have with their memories.)

[Shroom Man 777]

So I guess the plot is basically “evilz Americans come to do evilz because they are evilz and enjoy doing evilz, come watch if you wanna see evilz Americans get killed after doing evilz by the natives lead by the One Good American…and by whales!”

That's not a plot synopsis you're just describing real life lol. Pretty accurate depiction of America, though the functional space program is a plot hole

I’d hardly call the first movie a masterpiece of of deep philosophical debate, but at least the humans were taking sides to varying degrees (like the main character for instance). Guess that was too subtle for Cameron this time

There remain a few Americans helping the Na'vi, they're a credit to their kind

Anyway fine to be fair and to pause from shitting on America, what's the big deal? It's not like Ukraine has superconducting ores in the soil or have whales that have juices that will stop Putin from succumbing to terminal illness, and Yemen doesn't have some McGuffin minerals or some immortality potion for MBS, yet the Russians and Saudis have sent considerably MORE VTOLs with glass canopies to get shot down by the locals there. WHAT A PLOT HOLE!!!

We also see Quarritch not give a shit about his upload and not regard it as actually himself, likewise nu-Quarritch doesn't care for his predecessor. So culturally there they don't see the upload/reconstruction as a continuation of self.

For all we know Earth elites are iffy about the upload process (sans utilitarian purposes like ensuring the company gets work done). Maybe the upload tech uses 5G! So obviously the elites prefer to use NAVIMECTIN!

For all we know whale juice NAVIMECTIN health craze is a grift the prices are jacked up because of holo-podcasting morons who allege the Battle of Home Tree was a false flag and all the dead there were CRISIS UPLOADS!

Maybe Avatar 5 concludes with Jake Sully heroically rallying the NAVI HOOK survivors to sue Space Alex Jones into bankruptcy ending the NAVIMECTIN grift.

[Shroom Man 777]

Wellll, you can always watch a documentry on American actions around Korea/Vietnam (avatar 1), the Philippines (Avatar 2), Gulfwar1up to Somalia Black Hawk Down (Presumably Avatar 3 will be a desert tale, with giant floating jellyfish oil, solar scarabs, hive mind motile dune coral and purple navi), Afghanistan/Iraq(set on Pandora's moon, with different navi tribes kept intentionally divided and squabbling and dependent on human tech to breathe while the mining corp attempts to build a stargate to minimise shipping times and a navi resistance movement work with their planetary mind to try and 'terraform' human cyberspace. We see more of earth, and the effects that PTSD human miners have with their dreams of jungles and slow obsession with recreating pandora at home to try and reduce the dissonance they have with their memories.)

I mean, right? The main criticism is that it's derivative of works that... describe shit that actually happened or that lecture on real-life tragedies (US imperialism, the environment, etc.). Yet I don't think that's really a bad criticism? One note villains? lol their country IS a one note villain.

Wonder if Germans ever whine and blubber about one note villain portrayals lol

[Steve]

Obviously the issue that goads everyone is that the Na'vi are backward primitive savages who cheat because their planet's god-hivemind keeps coming to their rescue whenever they succumb to the greater firepower of the American MUHREENS.

Also it's blasphemous because it implies that the Na'vi god is stronger than America's God. Someone call the 700 Club, it's time to see the Avatar series for what it really is with its anti-American, anti-CHRISTIAN messaging!