What is Eywa's plan?

[madd0c0t0r2]

Twice the humans come to the planet, twice Eywa intervenes to drive them off, but only after the Navi have stirred up enough stimulation of the area.

Is this a function of scale? Eywa is a conscious super computer capable of ordering her cells in detail, but with limited transmission speed and a huge planetary surface to cover thoughts must proceed slowly to allow propagation and prevent fragmentation.

Is this a function of immune system role? The Navi are intelligent, curious, adaptable and territorial. They are basically disposable units of a probe/sensory system that will check out all novel stimulus. If a bunch of their brain signals cut out at once, that signals something bad and Eywa responds to bury it. Rather like us humans tasting a new food, spitting it out if our tounge hurts (disposable sensory cells) and vomiting if the stimulus suggests danger.

Or is Eywa smart and fast thinking, as evidenced by subtle signalling to Navi such as the flower saying 'dont kill Jake' near the start of the first movie? If so, what's the plan? Is she learning about humans by sending Navi amongst them? Is she training the Navi, trying to shift them into a new role? What are her plans?

[Crazedwraith]

Twice? Eywa intervened directly the first time (and it's implied in the second movie this is ongoing, any humans that go near the well of souls gets mobbed. Hence the use of {spoiler} in Avatar bodies) I don't recall her intervening the second time?

Though by the end of the movie I was kinda of exhausted and not paying attention to any finer details. lol.

[madd0c0t0r2]

Twice? Eywa intervened directly the first time (and it's implied in the second movie this is ongoing, any humans that go near the well of souls gets mobbed. Hence the use of {spoiler} in Avatar bodies) I don't recall her intervening the second time?

Though by the end of the movie I was kinda of exhausted and not paying attention to any finer details. lol.

I;'ve not seen the second yet, although [broken spoiler]
now I know why Quarritch has a Navvi avatar, which is nice to know the in-universe reason for. My understanding of the end of the second is giant brain whale eats the humans, is that not an explicit intervention like the first?[/spoiler]

[Solauren]

I don't know what it is, but it's not going to work long term.

Why?

Motivation Spoiler tag for those that haven't seen the movie or read spoilers. Spoiler

Apparently, Earth is no longer habitable (or damn close), and humanity wants to move to a new planet. This was just the first wave

Eventually, humanity is just going to go 'fuck it', and unleash biological weapons on the planet to pacify it's ecosystem, and move towards replacing it with one easier to control and more suitable for life humans are comfortable with.

First on the Well of Souls to heavily damage Eywa. Air-bomb to spread it, and there is no way to intercept. A nice air-borne pathegen that will destroy the global nervous system that Eywa represents.

Follow that up with something more targeted at the Navi.

Let that run it's course, and the eco-system will no longer be co-ordinated, and easier to deal with.

After that, it's just flame throwers and construction equipment.....

[Ralin]

Eventually, humanity is just going to go 'fuck it', and unleash biological weapons on the planet to pacify it's ecosystem, and move towards replacing it with one easier to control and more suitable for life humans are comfortable with.

First on the Well of Souls to heavily damage Eywa. Air-bomb to spread it, and there is no way to intercept. A nice air-borne pathegen that will destroy the global nervous system that Eywa represents.

As noted in the other thread what makes you think Eywa, who clearly has the ability to manipulate and alter organic life on Pandora, can't fend off any biological weapon humanity can come up with?

And can't imagine moving humanity to a new planet isn't massively harder than making the old one habitable. Or even building new habitats nearby.

[Crazedwraith]

Twice? Eywa intervened directly the first time (and it's implied in the second movie this is ongoing, any humans that go near the well of souls gets mobbed. Hence the use of {spoiler} in Avatar bodies) I don't recall her intervening the second time?

Though by the end of the movie I was kinda of exhausted and not paying attention to any finer details. lol.

I;'ve not seen the second yet, although [broken spoiler]
now I know why Quarritch has a Navvi avatar, which is nice to know the in-universe reason for. My understanding of the end of the second is giant brain whale eats the humans, is that not an explicit intervention like the first?[/spoiler]

Shrinking spoilers for movie in kind:

A gaint super whale does intervene at the end but not at the explicit intervention by Eywa. All the whales are sapient creatures capable of verbal communication and the whale in question is a friend and spirit brother to Jake's younger son has attempt to fight the human whalers previously

[bilateralrope]

If the biological weapons work, then humans would need to build a complete ecosystem in whatever is left after the biological weapons have done whatever they are going to do. Hoping that there isn't some plague left over that is very fatal to humans, maybe the weapons humans deployed, maybe some random Pandoran microorganism.

Then there is the issue of whatever makes Pandora's atmosphere toxic to humans. I forget what that is, so I'm not sure if it's from a biological or geological source.

[Solauren]

As noted in the other thread what makes you think Eywa, who clearly has the ability to manipulate and alter organic life on Pandora, can't fend off any biological weapon humanity can come up with?

And can't imagine moving humanity to a new planet isn't massively harder than making the old one habitable. Or even building new habitats nearby.

We haven't seen any indication that Eywa works at a microscopic level. That doesn't mean it's not possible.

I'm saying that is what humanities plan might become.

Either that, or just air-bomb the largest nuclear bomb they can.


As for moving humanity - yeah, it is. Unless you're only moving the elites and leaving the rest to die.

[Ralin]

We haven't seen any indication that Eywa works at a microscopic level. That doesn't mean it's not possible.

I'm saying that is what humanities plan might become.

Humanity's plans would have to take into account that they also don't know the full extent of whatever magic bullshit Eywa is capable of and that at this point it'a been proven to making assumptions there is a bad idea.

Surely Space Elon Musk can find a planet to live on that does not actively wish to kill him.

[Solauren]

Humanity's plans would have to take into account that they also don't know the full extent of whatever magic bullshit Eywa is capable of and that at this point it'a been proven to making assumptions there is a bad idea.

Well, at this point, they haven't seen anything that defies physics as Humans (at the time) understand it. So, orbital assault should still work.
(Rail Guns, Nukes, bio-weapons, chemical weapons). They just have to do it at the right scale/vector of attack.

Surely Space Elon Musk can find a planet to live on that does not actively wish to kill him.

Actually, they raises an in-universe question - Have they found any other planets that would be suitable?

[LadyTevar]

Then there is the issue of whatever makes Pandora's atmosphere toxic to humans. I forget what that is, so I'm not sure if it's from a biological or geological source.

Why can’t humans breathe in Pandora?
The high concentration of carbon dioxide in the Pandoran atmosphere makes it extremely poisonous to humans, rendering them unconscious in about 20 seconds and causing death in about 4 minutes when they venture out unprotected by specialized breathing masks.

[bilateralrope]

We haven't seen any indication that Eywa works at a microscopic level. That doesn't mean it's not possible.

I'm saying that is what humanities plan might become.

Humanity's plans would have to take into account that they also don't know the full extent of whatever magic bullshit Eywa is capable of and that at this point it'a been proven to making assumptions there is a bad idea.

Surely Space Elon Musk can find a planet to live on that does not actively wish to kill him.

Which brings up speculation I saw around the first movie that the mind linking tendrils suggest that life on Pandora look like something evolution would select against. Therefore it's likely that someone else engineered the entire ecosystem.

Which is something humans should investigate before doing too much damage to Pandora because, if that someone else exists, they probably aren't someone humans would want to anger.

[Ralin]

Well, at this point, they haven't seen anything that defies physics as Humans (at the time) understand it. So, orbital assault should still work.
(Rail Guns, Nukes, bio-weapons, chemical weapons). They just have to do it at the right scale/vector of attack.

And to be clear, the idea is that the people doing this want to live there afterwards?

Which brings up speculation I saw around the first movie that the mind linking tendrils suggest that life on Pandora look like something evolution would select against. Therefore it's likely that someone else engineered the entire ecosystem.

Which is something humans should investigate before doing too much damage to Pandora because, if that someone else exists, they probably aren't someone humans would want to anger.

Honestly I was thinking that at least some of the humans are going to rub their brain cells together enough to decide that they'd be better off throwing in with Eywa.

[bilateralrope]

Honestly I was thinking that at least some of the humans are going to rub their brain cells together enough to decide that they'd be better off throwing in with Eywa.

Maybe the best option if they intend to live on Pandora. Depending on what Eywa wants.

[Solauren]

Which is something humans should investigate before doing too much damage to Pandora because, if that someone else exists, they probably aren't someone humans would want to anger.

Clearly the people in charge are not smart enough to realize that.

[Solauren]

Well, at this point, they haven't seen anything that defies physics as Humans (at the time) understand it. So, orbital assault should still work.
(Rail Guns, Nukes, bio-weapons, chemical weapons). They just have to do it at the right scale/vector of attack.

And to be clear, the idea is that the people doing this want to live there afterwards?

Biodomes.

It's easier to build them in a dead environment, full of what is now effectively compost (I'm assuming the human forces can clean up the contaminates), then in an overpopulated environment with limited resources.

[Ralin]

If overpopulation and limited resources are the problem it should still be way easier to kill a bunch of people on Earth.

[NecronLord]

Biodomes.

It's easier to build them in a dead environment, full of what is now effectively compost (I'm assuming the human forces can clean up the contaminates), then in an overpopulated environment with limited resources.

It's also easier to build them on Mars, or Titan, or anywhere else, than the one environment with an actively malicious ecosystem they know of.]

Entirely killing off Pandora's ecosystem and then resettling the planet would cost at least as much as just settling any other random planet.

As noted in the other thread what makes you think Eywa, who clearly has the ability to manipulate and alter organic life on Pandora, can't fend off any biological weapon humanity can come up with?

And can't imagine moving humanity to a new planet isn't massively harder than making the old one habitable. Or even building new habitats nearby.

This was in fact in the draft of Avatar, but was removed:

Marcia does her last downlink to Earth. Josh, on camera, tells whoever is watching that the natural defenses, the immune system, of Pandora will not allow humans to set foot here again. Just like the cold and flu counterviruses were created, a new virus will be created.

It will be a virus lethal to humans. An airborne hemorrhagic fever. A flesheating virus from Hell. If it gets back to Earth as a result of future expeditions here, the whole human race will die screaming. Pandora is off-limits for all time.

Marcia and Trudy hug Josh and head for the airfield. The shuttle takes off, its sun-bright lance of fire climbing into the evening sky.

NORMAN CHEESEMAN
There's not really a virus like that is there?

JOSH
(with a little smile)
It could happen.

This was the end of the draft script; not actually canon, but I wouldn't be utterly surprised if Cameron revisits the idea as a lot of other stuff in it hews quite close to the finished film.

[Solauren]

Biodomes.

It's easier to build them in a dead environment, full of what is now effectively compost (I'm assuming the human forces can clean up the contaminates), then in an overpopulated environment with limited resources.

It's also easier to build them on Mars, or Titan, or anywhere else, than the one environment with an actively malicious ecosystem they know of.]

Entirely killing off Pandora's ecosystem and then resettling the planet would cost at least as much as just settling any other random planet.

Agreed. But these humans seem especially stupid or determined in that regard.

The only advantage (beyond planetary scale compost) I can see would be if the entire Earth Solar System was fucked up, or they tried it and found without Earth level gravity, people developed health problems beyond their medical technology to handle.

[LadyTevar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jake lose his legs because he was in a warzone?

So the people of Earth are having wars over resources?

[Solauren]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jake lose his legs because he was in a warzone?

So the people of Earth are having wars over resources?

Yes.

That would make setting up a colony offworld even more appealing then. The elites and there people go, set up, and don't have to worry about Earth.

Also, since the RDA ships can only travel at 70% the speed of light, if you can monitor and detect their launches (satelites), you have a few years to set up anti-space craft defenses to shot them down.

[LadyTevar]

Of course, this is assuming Eywa *can* plan. That "she" *can* think ahead, and not just react to the feedback from the Navi and other 'children'.

[Solauren]

Very true.

For all we know, to take the Well of Souls out, all you'd need to do is drop a 10 meter asteroid at it from orbit.

[bilateralrope]

Very true.

For all we know, to take the Well of Souls out, all you'd need to do is drop a 10 meter asteroid at it from orbit.

Maybe that works. Maybe Eywa has enough redundancy, or other defenses, to survive that. Maybe an attack like that wakes something else up.

Have humans done any exploration of the other bodies in the system ?

[NecronLord]

That would make setting up a colony offworld even more appealing then. The elites and there people go, set up, and don't have to worry about Earth.

Also, since the RDA ships can only travel at 70% the speed of light, if you can monitor and detect their launches (satelites), you have a few years to set up anti-space craft defenses to shot them down.

This is one of my predictions for these sequel movies in fact, we get told that the humans have now brought automated assemblers to Pandora and I do wonder if the boffins that defected aren't going to wait for them to construct some sort of planetary defence and then try to hack those, as a possible resolution of the movies.

Who knows though.

Maybe that works. Maybe Eywa has enough redundancy, or other defenses, to survive that. Maybe an attack like that wakes something else up.

Have humans done any exploration of the other bodies in the system ?

We've not been told anything significant about them that I know of no. If I were the RDA I would be very concerned that USB planet is the experiment of a superior technology species though, yes.