How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

[MKSheppard]

Returning to this thread in hope Straha is still around

So in Disney/Marvel's Hidden Empire #1 there's this scene:
Spoiler

Spoiler

[MKSheppard]

Second post because when you use a spoiler, it screws up formatting.

This is something that I think the Disney/Marvel writers really didn't think through.

Knowing that Palpatine knows some of the force isn't that far of a stretch.

Maybe palpatine might be linked to the Sith? His right hand man's called DARTH after all....

But all the above is speculation -- certain things would be so radioactively "hot" that Palpatine would take extreme actions to bury them.

The entire legitimacy of the Empire is founded upon it's enabling acts and founding myth -- that the Jedi tried to coup the elected government of the Republic.

Simply namedropping "Darth Sidious" moves you to the to of the "kill at all costs" list -- Lord Vader will be shortly by to Base Delta Zero the planet you're on.

[Solauren]

I think Maul told her, hoping to use Crimson Dawn against Darth Sidious and Vader.

Maul probably wants to knock them off the throne and take the Empire himself.

[Galvatron]

I'm sure that Yoda and Obi-Wan told Bail Organa, who no doubt leaked it to others he thought he could trust over the decades. But since it was never really safe to identify the source of that leak, it was probably dismissed as a silly rumor by most (even by those who believed it was true).

[Lord Revan]

Second post because when you use a spoiler, it screws up formatting.

This is something that I think the Disney/Marvel writers really didn't think through.

Knowing that Palpatine knows some of the force isn't that far of a stretch.

Maybe palpatine might be linked to the Sith? His right hand man's called DARTH after all....

But all the above is speculation -- certain things would be so radioactively "hot" that Palpatine would take extreme actions to bury them.

The entire legitimacy of the Empire is founded upon it's enabling acts and founding myth -- that the Jedi tried to coup the elected government of the Republic.

Simply namedropping "Darth Sidious" moves you to the to of the "kill at all costs" list -- Lord Vader will be shortly by to Base Delta Zero the planet you're on.

I think namedropping "Darth Sidious" will give you a "nice" visit from inquisitors, BDZ is way too public of a method to deal with someone like that. Having an inquisitor or Vader himself remind the person to not choke in their aspirations and doing it in private doesn't raise as much questions the Emperor doesn't want to answer.

And that's if the Emperor can't just ruin that person's reliability by claiming they're lying, he's after all just a common citizen from Naboo who was raise to his current status by the people.

[MKSheppard]

I'm sure that Yoda and Obi-Wan told Bail Organa, who no doubt leaked it to others he thought he could trust over the decades.

I think the reason they told Bail Organa was simple -- Bail is part of the Imperial Government and has to do social functions. Yoda and Obi-Wan saw how Palpatine corrupted Anakin slowly over the years; and they don't want that to happen to Leia.

So they had to tell Bail pretty much everything that they knew -- That Palpatine was a Sith, Palpatine was the Sith Lord behind the Naboo Crisis, the Sith Lord behind the CIS, etc -- because Bail was not only Leia's guardian, but since Leia was to be adopted into the Alderaanian Royal Family, she was gonna eventually run in the same circles that Palpatine does as Kindly Old Emperor Palpatine.

So Bail has to know so that he can subtly keep Leia from being influenced by Palpatine. Bail's also smart enough to realize that....there's nothing he can do with this information. He can't even tell anyone else (not even his wife); since he doesn't know who or what may be listening in.

About the only thing he can do with this information is that he KNOWS the kindly image of Palpatine is all a sham, a damn lie. Which helps him navigate the tumultuous currents of the immediate early Imperial era.

That's the biggest problem I have with a lot of comic writers -- they almost always come from Marvel or DC where shock value to sell comics is the biggest "should I?" writing test, and not whether it makes sense within the universe itself.

Lucius Fox in The Dark Knight pretty much pointed out everything wrong with the "hidden knowledge drop of doom" trope:

Now, let me get this straight. You think that your client, one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp... and your plan is to *blackmail* this person?

[Lord Revan]

With Palpatine there's also the added "and who would believe you anyway", that's probably one the major reasons why Bail didn't reveal what he knew in public even if he could have done it in a way that wasn't tracked back to him.

Without some damn good evidence (which confessions from neither Maul nor Yoda count as) claiming Palpatine is a Sith lord and also was behind both the Clone Wars and the events that lead up it is a good way to paint yourself as raving lunatic and loose all prestige and influence you had in the Galactic Empire.

[RogueIce]

This is something that I think the Disney/Marvel writers really didn't think through.

Hardly shocking. The old EU was pretty sloppy over Darth Vader = Anakin Skywalker, with it either being a secret or common knowledge depending on the writer. Eventually they settled on secret except every author with a pet villain decided that their Cool Well-Informed Badass Badguy had deduced it because of course they did.

I'll bet the same shit is going on here and Qi'ra will have absurd plot armor and the whole nine yards.

But then what do you expect when you give Marvel an ongoing comic set during a defined period of time? Vader's going to have more adventures for far longer than he could have possibly been Vader by 2030 or so. And it's just going to get ever more absurd as every author and artist needs to one-up what came before.

[Ralin]

Vader's going to have more adventures for far longer than he could have possibly been Vader by 2030 or so. And it's just going to get ever more absurd as every author and artist needs to one-up what came before.

Isn't that what people are paying for? Who's watching/reading Star Wars and not expecting to see weird, crazy and over the top shit?

[Galvatron]

I'll bet the same shit is going on here and Qi'ra will have absurd plot armor and the whole nine yards.

That ship already sailed. She went one-on-one against Vader and lived to talk about it.

[Gandalf]

I'm not too fussed about people being able to survive combat with Force users. Jedi and such are good, but as we see in the Clone Wars, they're beatable.

[Ralin]

Yeah, and I feel like it opens up more potential for fun action than them being categorically above any non-Force user.

Especially when they're up against someone who has put substantial amounts of effort into planning and training to do exactly that.

[Solauren]

I've always been of the belief when faced with a non-Force user, armed with a melee weapon, that Jedi and Sith duel them more-or-less-fairly (i.e no force powers) to test their martial skills.

So, Vader dueled Qir'na to test himself without the Force, knowing/beleving he could crush her at any time.

[Lord Revan]

I've always been of the belief when faced with a non-Force user, armed with a melee weapon, that Jedi and Sith duel them more-or-less-fairly (i.e no force powers) to test their martial skills.

So, Vader dueled Qir'na to test himself without the Force, knowing/beleving he could crush her at any time.

With both there could also be a degree of intimidation/humiliation in "I don't even need to use my special powers to beat you".

The motivation to do is different but means the same, for Sith it's "you're too weak to beat even if I don't use the Force, it is useless to resist, just submit to your fate!". For the Jedi it's "We both know I could crush you like a bug even without using the Force, so why won't we just talk things over instead of fighting"

[Galvatron]

I'm not too fussed about people being able to survive combat with Force users. Jedi and such are good, but as we see in the Clone Wars, they're beatable.

How times have changed. I remember when the prevailing belief around here was that precognition and telekinesis made Force-users pretty much invincible against any opponent short of Superman himself.

[Solauren]

Someone using the Force with intelligence is probably a near invincible opponent.

Problem with that with the Skywalker Sage period is...
#1 - The Jedi's ability to use the Force was weakened by the 'Shroud of the Dark Side' (ref Attack of the Clones - Yoda and Mace Discussing it)
#2 - Most Jedi and Sith seem to have the tactical ability, creativity, and imagination of a pet rock.

[MKSheppard]

How times have changed. I remember when the prevailing belief around here was that precognition and telekinesis made Force-users pretty much invincible against any opponent short of Superman himself.

Force Precog isn't 100% effective -- there's the famous Palpatine Force Precog failing him in ANH (failing to see DS1 destruction) and ROTJ -- failing to see Vader's double-cross.

You CAN take on a trained force user and win; it's just that you're going to need some prep time and serious thinking -- and that in itself can be a trigger. Like they sense "hatred, anger, anxiety" -- well yeah, it's because you've got five guys dialed in on his position ready to spring the trap.

And at the end of the day, the Jedi or Sith can just go "lmao" and use telekinesis to start messing with you or just straight up force choke you.

So it's really really hard. The only winning move...is not to play.

[MKSheppard]

(double post) edited

[Darth Yan]

I'm sure that Yoda and Obi-Wan told Bail Organa, who no doubt leaked it to others he thought he could trust over the decades.

I think the reason they told Bail Organa was simple -- Bail is part of the Imperial Government and has to do social functions. Yoda and Obi-Wan saw how Palpatine corrupted Anakin slowly over the years; and they don't want that to happen to Leia.

So they had to tell Bail pretty much everything that they knew -- That Palpatine was a Sith, Palpatine was the Sith Lord behind the Naboo Crisis, the Sith Lord behind the CIS, etc -- because Bail was not only Leia's guardian, but since Leia was to be adopted into the Alderaanian Royal Family, she was gonna eventually run in the same circles that Palpatine does as Kindly Old Emperor Palpatine.

So Bail has to know so that he can subtly keep Leia from being influenced by Palpatine. Bail's also smart enough to realize that....there's nothing he can do with this information. He can't even tell anyone else (not even his wife); since he doesn't know who or what may be listening in.

About the only thing he can do with this information is that he KNOWS the kindly image of Palpatine is all a sham, a damn lie. Which helps him navigate the tumultuous currents of the immediate early Imperial era.

That's the biggest problem I have with a lot of comic writers -- they almost always come from Marvel or DC where shock value to sell comics is the biggest "should I?" writing test, and not whether it makes sense within the universe itself.

Lucius Fox in The Dark Knight pretty much pointed out everything wrong with the "hidden knowledge drop of doom" trope:

Now, let me get this straight. You think that your client, one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp... and your plan is to *blackmail* this person?

Bail also saved them when Order 66 went down; he'd proven trustworthy with the knowledge.

Qi'ra knowing makes sense; she was trained by Maul, who was Palpatine's first apprentice. Maul letting her know makes sense. Maul knew, and he told his protege.

[MKSheppard]

Hardly shocking. The old EU was pretty sloppy over Darth Vader = Anakin Skywalker, with it either being a secret or common knowledge depending on the writer. Eventually they settled on secret except every author with a pet villain decided that their Cool Well-Informed Badass Badguy had deduced it because of course they did.

IIRC, in old canon Tarkin and Thrawn figured it out; due to some associations with Anakin way back then.

I believe the main reason(s) Tarkin and Thrawn wisely decided to keep their mouths shut; was that this knowledge was a "fuck it I have nothing else to lose" card to play with Palpatine.

Vader/Anakin is too emotional to use the card on; he'd kill you -- but you can negotiate with Palpatine.

There's a what if for you -- Tarkin evacuates in his shuttle with Bast and survives the DS1 disaster; and is recalled to Imperial Palace to explain how the fuck this happened to Palpatine himself. Normally, Tarkin would be fucked; but if he plays the knowledge card right with Palpatine, he can survive with a forcible retirement to Eriadu -- contingent on him keeping his mouth shut.

Naturally, Tarkin then disappears shortly after arriving on Eriadu in disgrace -- several hours before assassin droids blow up his residence and he doesn't pull a Dave fucking Filoni like Maul did. He just....disappears until one day; 30 years later, an old man dies somewhere on the Outer Rim.

[MKSheppard]

Qi'ra knowing makes sense; she was trained by Maul, who was Palpatine's first apprentice. Maul letting her know makes sense. Maul knew, and he told his protege.

You know, when you look at Maul's Wookiepedia entry; you end up scratching your head a lot thanks to Dave Filoni; causing me to repost this meme:



For all the talk about how Filoni is so faithful to the canon -- i.e. Anakin and Grevious never meeting directly in Clone Wars because of that line "You're shorter than I expected." he doesn't do a lot of thinking over how his actions impact the greater universe.

There's a great James Cameron quote on this (related to Aliens Vs Predator):

JAMES CAMERON: Yeah. Ridley and I talked about doing another ALIEN film and I said to 20th Century Fox that I would develop a 5th ALIEN film. I started working on a story, I was working with another writer and Fox came back to me and said, "We've got this really good script for ALIEN VS PREDATOR and I got pretty upset. I said, "You do that you're going to kill the validity of the franchise in my mind." Because to me, that was FRANKENSTEIN MEETS WEREWOLF. It was Universal just taking their assets and starting to play them off against each other.

...

JAMES CAMERON: Well, it starts to become a video game. It's like, "Okay, that can be in him and that can show up over here..." It becomes more metaphorical or more comic book. I don't mean comic book in a negative way, I just mean that it's working at a kind of mythic, metaphoric level as opposed to really trying to immerse you in reality. I mean, I felt when I was making Aliens I think the same thing Ridley was doing with Alien, which is... “I'm going to make you think this is real.” Even though it is completely ridiculous deep space adventure. We were going to make you feel like it's real. It's a question of does the film take itself seriously or not.

But I'm getting ahead of myself here.

So Darth Maul survives being cut in half with a lightsaber in TPM; albeit driven mad with insanity from the pain.

That's not too implausible, hate = dark side = will to live, etc and lightsabers can cauterize wounds, so he wouldn't die from blood loss.

But what becomes increasingly implausible is Maul taking a sidepiece in the Clone Wars -- duelling with Obi Wan Kenobi, siege of Mandalore, etc.

Then we have a Maul vs Sidious showdown at the height of the Siege of Mandalore:

Maul held his own better than Opress, but was ultimately outclassed by the more experienced and skilled Dark Lord of the Sith and disarmed. Sidious telekinetically assaulted Maul multiple times, throwing him against walls and smashing him into the ground, severely weakening him. Maul pleaded for mercy, but Sidious riposted that in the Sith, there was no mercy and began to sadistically torture him with blasts of Force Lightning. The Sith Lord revealed he had no intention of killing his former apprentice and still had uses for Maul.

Let's stop here for a moment and do a cost/benefit analysis for Sidious/Palpatine of letting Maul live.

Maul did a lot of Sidious' dirty work leading up to TPM; and was a key lynchpin in the entire Naboo crisis; and can definitely link Kindly Old Man Palpatine with Darth Sidious.

Palpatine is still at this time a mere Chancellor of the Republic (which brings me to a point -- how does the Chancellor of the Republic disappear during the Clone Wars long enough to catch a flight to Mandalore, beat up Maul, and get back to the Chancellery on Coruscant without anyone noticing -- yes, I know, he'd have access to ships that would make the Millennium Falcon look slow; but it stretches plausibility) and he's still possible to bring down via scandal -- being connected to a ton of murders via Maul would do that.

In the movie canon, Sidious/Palpatine cleverly manipulated Anakin into cleaning up the loose end that was Count Dooku -- as Dooku provided a direct link from Chancellor Palpatine/Darth Sidious to the CIS. His death ensured there wouldn't be any complications to Palps becoming Emperor.



So....once Palpatine knows for sure that Darth Maul isn't dead....

"Sub Governor Tarkin, there's a dangerous Confederate criminal on the moon of Scuuthe. Destroy it utterly. Base Delta Zero is authorized."

[Lord Revan]

Well the difference here is that before becoming a Sith Dooku was high ranking member of the Republic hierarchy (either as Jedi Master or as the Count of Serrano) and for the most part sane. Maul on the other hand was a nobody who at best of time was only barely at control of his sanity and would often totally loose that control.

It would be far easier for Dooku to get hold of someone in a position to bring down Palpatine and be taken at his word at least long for this to be investigated and the skeletons Palpatine tried to hide be found.

If anything thanks to his questionable lucidity Maul might even act as barrier against others making Palpatine's status as Sith Lord public without very good evidence you don't want to be branded as raving lunatic after all.

[MKSheppard]

Maul's simple existence is a very dangerous loose end, irregardless of his sanity (Filoni had him regain it through Dathomir tricks); I would expect Sheev Palpatine to be at least as competent as Dai Li LINK

Backstory: While flipping through "Kempetai: A history of the Japanese secret service" by richard deacon, I found this passage regarding him from a former Japanese intelligence official:

Tai Li (aka Dai Li in some transliterations) actually was working for the Chinese Communists at one point from 1923-1927. Power Gamer move, since he was part of Chiang's secret police since 1925 -- not out of any real ideology, but to safeguard his position if Chiang failed in power games.

But what really stood out for me was this assertation:

"But we found much else about his early life of which he wished to keep Chiang in ignorance. Do you know that he burned all records of his early life and actually ordered the murder of people who knew him in his teens."

tfw when a random chinese spymaster is more ruthless than Sheev Palpatine.

[Gandalf]

It looks like once Palpatine got into the big chair, he lost the competitive edge that got him there, instead relying on the trappings of his new role to carry him through. It's like Rocky III.

[Ralin]

Or one of Palpatine's goals was specifically to get to the point where that sort of concern didn't matter. From his perspective, how is it 'UNLIMITED POWER' if you have to constantly play deniability games and worry about good PR?

Long-term I'm sure he would have eventually wanted to transition to openly ruling as the immortal Sith God-Emperor with absolute authority. Presumably after he'd permanently moved into his Death Star mobile oppression palace and had the Last Order ready to go.