A Debate

[Khan Jackal Moreau]

So the power of the SW universe is based off of the movies and related books alone, yes? The novels and the screenplays as well?

Do books count? Any of the non-movie books?

And for ST, what counts? Aired episodes and movies?

I'm seeking a common ground, something to which the discussion can be tied. Are these the basic rules for argument?

[TheDarkling]

SW.

Canon
Movies
Screenplays.
Books of the Films.
Radio Dramas.

Official
EU Books.

Canon overrules official but official counts where canon doesnt contradict it.

ST
Episodes/Films.
2 Books - Pathways and Mosaic.

[Cpt_Frank]

We don't need to discuss that, its already established.
Read the announcement for newbies, IIRC it contains the canon policies of Lucas Arts and Paramount.
For SW, we take the Lucas Arts canon policy, which means all official material (EU books, ICS) are true as long as they are not directly contradicted by canon(movies, novels, radioplays).
For ST, we take Paramount's canon policy: official material is not true, only screen canon is.

As for canon sources themselves, the visuals are more important than dialogue.

[Cpt_Frank]

Oh Darkling was faster.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

In canonical order:



SW:
Canon:
SE movies
Old Movies
Screenplays
Novelizations
Radio Dramas

This means if in the SE movies, Luke wears a blue shirt, but in the novel it says he's wearing green, Luke is wearing blue.

Official (canon unless directly contradicted by above)

ICS (I place is here because it's based on the movies alone)
Books
Essential Guides (because they are based on the novels)

[Mr Bean]

Indeed

This is the rule of the land, Books, Movies and Manuals for SW, Shows only for ST(Consdering the Number of Words in all the Books and movie scripts VS the scripts of ST it acutal works out to be almost equal but every Season pushs the gap a bit bigger, But don't worry with B&B in charge each season is a repeat of the previous so it all works out in the end)

[Master of Ossus]

Note that the videogames and comics are not official or canon. They have no relevence to these debates.

[DarkStar]

Those are the rules of canonicity for this group. However, those statements do not reflect the actual Star Wars canon policy. For more information, go here:

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWCanon.html

Specifically, you'll want to click the "Star Wars Canon" link, but the rest might also be helpful to you.

[Master of Ossus]

Those are the rules of canonicity for this group. However, those statements do not reflect the actual Star Wars canon policy. For more information, go here:

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWCanon.html

Specifically, you'll want to click the "Star Wars Canon" link, but the rest might also be helpful to you.

Are you still talking about that? The policy we gave is the official policy of LFL. That should be all that matters, as the policy of LFL is the reason why we use that policy.

Incidentally, I know that your particular website disregards official information. Apparently your website also occasionally disregards canonical evidence, as well. That is why when the two of us were squaring off I refrained from using official material, except when I noted that it was official and was only using it to support other points. And you still could not even come close to beating me. So stop bringing up your utterly bizarre interpretation of canon, because it really changes nothing.

[Mr Bean]

Note the Village Idiot in DarkStars Title its there for a reason

His wall or preputal ignorance is one of the fun things on this board

That and SirNitrim found out you can set him on fire and he does not notice!

[Ender]

Again DarkStar, your personal opinions do not override reality.

[DarkStar]

Khan,

I apologize for the behavior of the other posters. I hold the opinion that one is free to make up one's own mind on the subject (as suggested within the SW canon policy to begin with). However, for the purposes of debate, we must naturally find one interpretation and run with it.

Unfortunately, the chosen interpretation of the canon in many in these debates is way off base, as a perusal of the references provided on my "Star Wars Canon" page demonstrate.

If your question on canon policy referred strictly to that used by this group, then the directions they propose are correct. However, if you were looking for the canon policy as it exists for the rest of civilisation, I trust you will ignore their efforts to poison the well of discourse, and instead take a look at the issue for yourself.

I will say, though, that should you choose to accept the actual Star Wars canon policy (as opposed to the chosen variant of this group), you may not want to argue for it here. If you do, the same sort of insults, slander, well-poisoning, and so on will be directed toward you.

[TheDarkling]

The canon policy here (and in most Vs debates) has been stated hjowever if you want to know the real Lucas film policy see the above and also read Darkstars quote then make up your own mind on what it means.

Comics arent official?? what about the World devastators? or majority of Fett adventures.
The emperor reborn etc etc.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

If two EU books contradict each other, there should be a compromise, or if a compromise can't be reached, one is disregarded, based on which one is most accurate to canon events.

[Master of Ossus]

DarkStar, for the last time you are not ostracized because you don't agree with us. You are ostracized for believing and saying stupid things. No one here makes fun of Darkling, because even though Darkling disagrees with us on many issues he is actually reasonably intelligent, and a rational person. You, on the other hand, are a complete idiot who fails to comprehend even the most basic material and who ignores evidence. Also, you don't appear to have any real knowledge about either ST or SW, and when you come here spewing your woefully ignorant and pitiable reasoning, we make fun of you because we consider you stupid. Blaming it on us does not mean absolve you of guilt in the matter, and while I will not discount the possibility that someone has been unreasonably abusive towards you, that also does not mean that you deserve none of what you get.

In short, straighten up and start thinking. Then one of two things will happen.
1. You decide that we are right on most or all of the points we have been arguing about.
Or,
2. You come up with new, reasonable evidence for why we are wrong, which you will present us with.

Either way, you come out ahead. You will not be flamed nearly so much if you present either a reasonably compelling case, or you will believe that we are right on most issues and stop bothering us with your slanderous and deceitful comments.

[Mr Bean]

Ossus you realy don't need to say anything

Instead simply point to the numrous DarkStar Posts they speak for themselves and add in theft of materials from Wongs Site(Who does not care because he plans to Give the Imperial Smack Down(TM) to Darkstar at some point) and you have more than enough reason to discredit Dark-Star



Besides can you name somone else who has a new Logic Fallasy named after him?

(Aka-The Darkstar wall of Preputal Ignorance, He's not just repeating himself, He's still repeating himself, From Post to Post To Post, Some of which are so similar it looks like he hit Radnomise on the Thesourace between each post as he never changes his position in the Slightist)

However one more thing can be said

If everyone from a Borderline Nazi to a Rule by the Bible Religous guy think Dark-star is an idiot, maybe just maybe he is?

[DarkStar]

DarkStar, for the last time you are not ostracized because you don't agree with us. You are ostracized for believing and saying stupid things.

. . . where your concept of "stupid things" = that which does not agree with your chosen interpretations.

2. You come up with new, reasonable evidence for why we are wrong, which you will present us with.

Given the observed behavior in reference to my 'old, reasonable evidence', I find it unlikely that "new, reasonable evidence" will somehow produce a different result.

You will not be flamed nearly so much if you present either a reasonably compelling case,

Again, same problem. Your idea of "compelling" = anything which falls in line with current Warsie doctrine.

or you will believe that we are right on most issues

Which is impossible, given that my idea of "compelling" = anything which falls in line with canon fact and the use of this evidence, mixed with good old-fashioned reason.

[Sea Skimmer]

Which is impossible, given that my idea of "compelling" = anything which falls in line with canon fact and the use of this evidence, mixed with good old-fashioned reason.

That strategy would be just fine if you had any capacity for reason.

[Khan Jackal Moreau]

*smacks himself in the face*

So, I take it there is some degree of discord on what is and is not "real"?

What about situations where there is contradiction? What counts? Earliest fact?

What I don't get is this. Alot of the argument seems to be based around bad writing (such as "this hand weapon does 30 watts of damage") or lousy special effects (looks at that, it hits the other spaceship and then the other spaceship dissapears).

If that's the case, then somebody who is a fan of the Lensmen, or Harry Seldon, or Superman could come in and rule the day.

If the next Star Trek movie has a throwaway line like "hand phasers can be overcharged to damage the surface of distant planets" in the background, would that really change what you thought of the power level of the show?

If the next Star Wars movie features the Suncrusher, wouldn't you feel ashamed going into a discussion arguing the power level of the Empire based on THAT? You would become like the Scarlet Witch, who somebody gave the power of "infinite percentage management" never considering the implications.

Bah. But there must be a baseline, yes? True? So there you have it. The baseline allows the inclusion of all "canon" facts.

So what defense does anyone have against Franklin Richards? Bad writing on the part of Marvel gives him the power of "infinite change at infinate range to any part of the universe to an infinate level of complexity". And what defense does Star Trek have against Star Wars when special effects budgets and authors give the weapons arbitrarily high damage and simply allow things to blow into dust rather than create a more expensive chunky explosion?

And honestly, to be fair, what Star Wars fan can defend against Star Trek with the power of weekly solutions to problems, done with lousy writing, so that every few months a new generation of "super device" comes along, with no thought to the logical implications (phase cloak anyone?)?

*cough cough*

But regardless. If we take fiction as written as the base of our dialouge, with no regard to the quality of the writing, then all shall fall to the mighty men (and women) of Marvel. They're the worst writers of them all.

[TheDarkling]

And honestly, to be fair, what Star Wars fan can defend against Star Trek with the power of weekly solutions to problems, done with lousy writing, so that every few months a new generation of "super device" comes along, with no thought to the logical implications (phase cloak anyone?)?

Anything not seen often is called lost tech and is therefore no longer availble to the federation (or whoever else), but exactly what constitutes lost tech is debatable ("I have heard that a tech must be shown once a season" to "aslong as theres no evidence proving its lost then it isnt lost.")

SF ability to use technobabble to win the day is also disregarded since it isnt easy to factor into a debate, these two facts do hamstring ST abit as does the fact that alot of people view SFX > Dialogue *(which would be reasonable in RL yet an argument for the other side can be found, that being when the dialogue and SFX clash Dialogue is what the writer wanted and is thus more valid).

[TheDarkling]

Also Marvel is a high powered universe but alot of them would go bye bye if their planet was destroyed, on the other hand some of the high powers of marvel are uber and would eat ST/SW for lunch.

[Cpt_Frank]

SF ability to use technobabble to win the day is also disregarded since it isnt easy to factor into a debate, these two facts do hamstring ST abit as does the fact that alot of people view SFX > Dialogue *(which would be reasonable in RL yet an argument for the other side can be found, that being when the dialogue and SFX clash Dialogue is what the writer wanted and is thus more valid).

Just btw the technobabble cop out relies on a crucial weakness a system has, such as shield frequency modulation etc.
SW tech usually doesn't have such extreme flaws.

[TheDarkling]

Cpt_Frank: We all know they would use some shield mods to make plasma weapons ineffective or use some weird beam to disbale ISD's.

I actually like that shield mod to make Plasma weapons less effective, may have been done but I dont feel like a flame fest so I will leave it for now.

[Ender]

*smacks himself in the face*

So, I take it there is some degree of discord on what is and is not "real"?

No, DarkStar just like to use an out of context quote from GL to say there was an official change in policy.

TRANSLATION: DarkStar is a liar.

What about situations where there is contradiction? What counts? Earliest fact?

Contradiction is usually rationalized away (IE KJA overturning the ending of Jedi vs Sith as the last issue was going to print). In the cases where it can't, THAT'S where the GL quote applies.

[Cpt_Frank]

Cpt_Frank: We all know they would use some shield mods to make plasma weapons ineffective or use some weird beam to disbale ISD's.

I actually like that shield mod to make Plasma weapons less effective, may have been done but I dont feel like a flame fest so I will leave it for now.

Yep you're right, that'd be the way it would be on a ST show.
However, the debate is taking place in reality ie were the good guys aren'T destined to win.
And btw TL are not just pure plasma, there's also the invisible portion that travels at c.

See? I didn't flame you!