How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

[MKSheppard]

Also, Exegol was home to innumerable Sith cultists that would have been at Palpatine's disposal at least as far back as just after TESB

This is something that the LFL Story Group has always played pretty damn fast and loose with; re: Sith, and it's biting them in the ass.

A graph plotting Palpatine's "at-risk" status probably looks like a bell curve, with different time periods having different risks:

Stage 1: Palpatine the Apprentice

At this point, Palps can freely move around and do dirty deeds -- he's Plagueis' hatchet man at this point -- going around and force choking people who are loose ends. His risk is fairly low -- he hasn't done anything (yet) to rate him high on the Judicial Corps or the Jedi lists of people to look at.

The mysteriousness of the Sith "extinct for a thousand years" plays into his safety here -- the Jedi won't dig too deeply since lol fairy tales. But IF they do think a Sith is really walking around; they're going to squeeze Palps for info to find out who the Sith is. Hence he's at high risk of being liquidated by Plagueis to prevent loose ends, so on one hand, on the other hand etc.

Stage 2: Palpatine the Sith Lord

The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise has occurred, etc. Now Palpatine is Big Boss. Presumably around this time is when he begins his slow rise through the political ranks. It could be that in the new canon the Plagueis/Sidious breakup was a disagreement over methods to achieve the Revenge of the Sith -- Plagueis wanted a traditional "lightsabers at dawn dueling over Coruscant skyline as our troops burn the city" thing, while Palpatine wanted a primitive version of what became Order 66.

Now that he's insulated from direct murders -- he gets other people to do those now -- Palpatine's risk drops, but as he moves up in the political ranks, his risk rises. Why? The average prole isn't going to have a lot of people investigating them, but an upcoming Vice Legate is going to have their history dug into by all sorts of people seeking political dirt.

Stage 3: Palpatine the Senator

It took a lot to become Senator of Chommel Sector (even though it's rather sparsely populated by Republic Standards); so Palpatine is still kind of in debt to his political patrons. Even more people are watching him now, from blackmail gangs (can you imagine the fun he would have had with a Blackmail gang that tried to blackmail him over certain sudden and unexpected deaths?) to other Senators looking to take him down a notch.

Additionally, the Jedi are now watching him somewhat, so he's got to be better at his "force shrouding" skill.

Stage 4: Palpatine the Chancellor

Now that he's Chancellor, he's gained some natural immunity to certain vectors of attack -- "You expect me to believe that Chancellor Palpatine is responsible for five dozen murders? And not once during his rise did anyone find out about them? Not the Royal Naboo Constabulary, the Republic Judicial Corps, or the Jedi?" as pointed out earlier up thread by Lord Revan.

But he's also quite vulnerable -- he has to expend a lot of effort now in using Force Shroud and controlling his emotions now that he has full time Jedi minders around him and he's in direct near-daily contact with the Jedi Council; rather than the low ranking Padawans he had contact with earlier as a Vice Legate, etc.

Stage 5: Palpatine the Galactic Emperor (Early Years)

I believe this is where Palpatine's personal danger quotient peaks. Yes, the Jedi are exinct, their survivors driven into hiding in the swamps of Dagobah or the sands of Tatooine; but politically, his regime is quite weak.

That's always the danger with revolutions -- once you light that tinderbox, it's easy for a counter-revolution or another group of revolutionaries to knock you off your pedestal.

But the main reason is that what was once incredible is now...everyday.

The Jedi trying to coup the Republic?

If that's possible, then other things are possible as well -- i.e. he's now more vulnerable to leaks that prove he did horrible thing x y or z while a small politician on Naboo.

And above that, he has to keep the truth about the final days of the Republic tightly sealed; because the legimitacy of his entire regime rests on the people accepting the public story.

Stage 5: Palpatine the Galactic Emperor (Late Years)

At around fifteen years into his reign, he's in a lot less danger -- everyone who could possibly pose a threat has been carefully neutralized or eliminated and almost an entire generation has grown up with Emperor Palpatine from their first memory.

I believe this is where he started bringing the Sith "out of the shadows", so to speak, with actual Sith Cultists studying semi-hidden on Byss -- i.e. they practice Sith abominations in the open on Byss, without the need to hide it behind euphemisms and ceremonies at midnight; but to the known galaxy, Byss doesn't exist on star maps.

This might be why Vader is so nonchalant about namedropping his line about destroying a planet being insignificant next to the Force on the Death Star in ANH; he's been to Byss and seen what they've been up to.

Stage 6: Palpatine the Sith Emperor (Unrealized)

As mentioned earlier upthread by me -- eventually Palpatine wanted to go "public" with the Sith being the overt rulers of the Empire from the new capital of Byss.

At this point the only thing he'd have to fear is old age or assassination attempts, both of which can be averted through the powers of the Sith; at which point he's Sith-Emperor Palpatine resting on the Durasteel Throne, a thousand force sensitives sacrificed to him every day, etc etc in the Grim Darkness of the Future there is only war...

[MKSheppard]

We should also remember that Maul was in the Galactic scale a nobody before becoming the leader his crime syndicate.

This is where Filoni screwed up. If he'd had Maul re-emerging to the wider galactic scope of things a few years post-Revenge of the Sith, things would have made more sense, because the Jedi at this point have been killed or driven into hiding. So the re-emergence of a one time Sith Apprentice would be lost in the noise of the Empire's Growing Pains.

But re-emerging in the middle of the Clone Wars?

Remember these scenes?

MACE WINDU
There is no doubt. The mysterious warrior was a Sith.

YODA
Always two there are....no more...no less. A master and an apprentice.

MACE WINDU
But which one was destroyed, the master or the apprentice?

And this from AOTC:

MACE WINDU
It's been ten years, and the Sith still have no shown themselves. Do you think they are behind this?

YODA
...Out there, they are. A certainty that is.

Then fast forward to ROTS where we have this fun scene:

ANAKIN:
I've just learned a terrible truth. I think Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord.

MACE WINDU:
A Sith Lord?

ANAKIN:
Yes. The one we have been looking for.

MACE WINDU:
How do you know this?

ANAKIN:
He knows the ways of the Force. He has been trained to use the dark side.

Mace is ready right then and there to basically GTFO and coup Palpatine right then and there over a mere "he knows the ways of the Force!" from a Jedi Padawan.

What do you think Maul reappearing and fighting Obi Wan Kenobi publicly during the siege of Mandalore will do to 2 very influential votes (Windu and Yoda) on the Jedi Council?

They're gonna say "send a mission at once to find this Sith and waterboard him until he tells us everything."

[Ralin]

Mace storming into Palpatine's office wasn't just on the word of 'a Jedi Padawan.' Anakin was a established war hero at this point. He was experienced, and may have had his reliability issues but he wasn't likely to be lying or deceived about something like that. He was radiating fear and general emotional anguish so hard Mace could almost physically feel it. He had an established relationship with Palpatine. And this was all happening in the context of the Jedi Council already being Extremely Concerned that Palpatine had basically made himself king of the Republic in all but name.

Which isn't to say that hearing about Maul resurfacing wouldn't have been something they'd take an immediate interest in. They'd look into it as much as they could, definitely. But the fact that Mace immediately hatted up to arrest Palpatine doesn't mean they would have dropped what they were doing in the middle of a war to hunt Maul down if they did. And they only had so many resources to throw into finding him.

[Galvatron]

ANAKIN:
I've just learned a terrible truth. I think Chancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord.

MACE WINDU:
A Sith Lord?

Jackson's line delivery always sounded odd to me in that scene.

"A Sith...Lord??"

As if the Jedi council already suspected that Palpatine may be affiliated with the Sith in some way, but never that he might actually be the full-fledged Sith Lord they've been searching for all those years. Maybe he was just so impossibly effective at concealing his strength with the Force that they completely dismissed the possibility.

[Lord Revan]

It's possible that there were some Sith affiliated cults and what not, so Sith affiliation wouldn't be that odd but a full member of the Sith Order was totally another matter.

One is essentially an amateur dabbling with things they probably don't fully understand, the other is someone who is at the same threat level as a Jedi.

and IIRC Palpatine had known interest in Sith artifacts and history.

[Crazedwraith]

Nitpick: Windu was already hatting up to take down Palps when Anakin let him know about the Sith.

The Jedi considered the death of Grievous as the point he should give up Emergency powers and were off to demand that.

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe he was surprised that it is the full title of a Sith? A Sith Lord? Maybe he was expecting a Sith... Captain? A Sith Colonel. Like he was imagining the Sith came with rank insignias like any other boring ass generico American science fiction thing imagined by Americans so Lord, not being a military rank and actually cool sounding, flummoxed him.

[MKSheppard]

Jackson's line delivery always sounded odd to me in that scene.

"A Sith...Lord??"

As if the Jedi council already suspected that Palpatine may be affiliated with the Sith in some way, but never that he might actually be the full-fledged Sith Lord they've been searching for all those years. Maybe he was just so impossibly effective at concealing his strength with the Force that they completely dismissed the possibility.

While at work; I was thinking over this and remembered Gandalf's points made in 2021 and reiterated a bit earlier here by him once more:

When the various Sith all talk to each other over the holophone, and then fly about on secret Sith business, someone needs to do the paperwork, record tampering, and shonky accounting to make sure that said Sith Lord isn't discovered.

It would be odd if they contracted that out to the nearest Saul Goodman and friends. So it makes some sense for each Sith Lord to have a group of underlings who while part of the Sith organisation, will never be full Lords. However, they still live well as a Sith consigliere or similar. When Palpatine takes over in ROTS, his Sith cronies can install themselves at the head of the Imperial Public Service, and ensure continuity for his own works.

...

In the same way that criminal organisations have accountants and lawyers, the Sith might presumably have some people on the payroll to help with their bureaucratic needs, but have no force powers.

For example, who paid for, registered, and maintains Maul's ship? In order to be a full time Sith, he farms out the task to a Saul Goodman, who knows which Republic office holders won't ask questions and can let things go in the right way for a small fee in untraceable credits. To pay for the ship, said criminal lawyer helps them set up a small income stream. And so on.

Once Palpatine becomes Chancellor, he can stop relying as much on these guys, or possibly just bring them into the fold as paid advisors.

Consider what Palps has in his office:

• Great Hyperspace War Mural depicting Jedi vs Sith Conflict (and also hiding his lightsabre until needed)

• Four Sages of Dwartii statues (sith lore)

• Sith Chalice right out in the open

Surely the Jedi would have investigated this -- and all Palpatine has to do is go:

"oh, those? Gifts from a employer who I helped a long time ago back on Naboo with some troublesome things. He was so grateful that he granted me these...gifts. Dreadful, aren't they? I keep them here to remind me who I was, before all the politics, back when I was a simple barrister."

So the Jedi immediately think that Sheev is a slightly crooked Saul Goodman (no shortage of them in the Republic) who may have unknowingly worked for the Sith that they're looking for -- and they go down a hall of mirrors wild goose chase.

I can even see the Jedi Council arguing something like this behind closed doors:

"Palpatine, a Sith? Impossible. The ego of a Sith is absolute. They would never debase themselves to being a politician, having to answer for favors granted decades ago by patrons."

[Ralin]

Nitpick: Windu was already hatting up to take down Palps when Anakin let him know about the Sith.

The Jedi considered the death of Grievous as the point he should give up Emergency powers and were off to demand that.

Yeah but the key word there is demand. They weren't at the point of having decided to arrest him or stage a coup if he didn't. They were still hoping confronting him would be enough to get him to back down without the Jedi having to commit to crossing that line.

[Gandalf]

I can even see the Jedi Council arguing something like this behind closed doors:

"Palpatine, a Sith? Impossible. The ego of a Sith is absolute. They would never debase themselves to being a politician, having to answer for favors granted decades ago by patrons."

Also "If he was a Sith, we would have sensed it." Wacky Jedi arrogance.

[Galvatron]

Well, they kinda did...



Maybe they only thought he was being controlled by the Sith though, even unwittingly.

[Gandalf]

Yeah, that's such a weird line. Does the force "surround" muggles often?

[Ralin]

Pretty sure the Force surrounds everyone and everything.

Even ysalamiri. Just not quite as closely.

[Gandalf]

Yeah, in the context of Yoda's line about how the Force surrounds everyone, Mace Windu's line becomes more interesting.

It makes me wonder if the dark side of the Force surrounding people just means they perhaps have "dark fates," which would explain Palpatine but raise questions elsewhere.

[Ralin]

I think it's probably more that 1) Windu has a premonition that a plot is afoot to destroy the Jedi, 2) the Sith are presumably behind it and they use the Dark Side and 3) Palpatine seems to be involved somehow, probably as a tool but who knows exactly and 4) he is 'surrounded by the Dark Side' as a figure of speech for being somehow part of all that.

[Solauren]

It also might have something to do with Mace's ability to see 'Shatterpoints'

[Lord Revan]

One of the EU novels explained it, it was pretty much exactly how Ralin said it. Jedi knew of Darth Sidious (not their identity just that they existed) and had tracked down evidence to the apartment complex where Palpatine lived and had concluded that Sidious was someone connected to Palpatine but who they weren't able to solve before the Separatist attack on Corusant and were thus actively hunting Sidious during ROTS.

We got remember while the ability to see the future is a powerful tool it isn't flawless, like Yoda said in Empire Strikes Back the future is always in motion and it'll be hard to see a specific thing especially if that thing is rather vague to begin with.

[Ralin]

And there's a difference between being arrogant and not giving enough credence to the idea that their arch-nemesis is hiding in plain sight and meeting with them personally on a regular basis. Which would be a pretty out there idea if it didn't happen to be true, and not in keeping with what they knew or thought they knew about how the Sith operate.

They also mention at one point in the novelisation that the main reason he isn't a suspect is because he pretty much already ruled the galaxy. So the thought did cross their mind, and as mentioned before they did come around to the idea pretty quickly once they had proof (Anakin informing them).

We got remember while the ability to see the future is a powerful tool it isn't flawless, like Yoda said in Empire Strikes Back the future is always in motion and it'll be hard to see a specific thing especially if that thing is rather vague to begin with.

I expect they're also not always sure whether something is a genuine magical insight into the future or their own gut instinct/feelings. Seems like that would be the sort of thing that blends into the other.