D&D: Honor Among Thieves

[LadyTevar]

New clip.

57 seconds. If you see them, you see them (and yes, later in the clip they show up again!)

OMG That's Just AWESOME Fan Service!
I also like how they're showing the Displacer Beast "displacing" itself. Ingenious use of their tentacles.

[Solauren]

New clip.

57 seconds. If you see them, you see them (and yes, later in the clip they show up again!)

OMG That's Just AWESOME Fan Service!
I also like how they're showing the Displacer Beast "displacing" itself. Ingenious use of their tentacles.

considering an event from one of their campaign is CANON in wider D&D, that's not a huge surprise.
(It involved the fate of one of Vecna's relics)

[LadyTevar]

57 seconds. If you see them, you see them (and yes, later in the clip they show up again!)

OMG That's Just AWESOME Fan Service!
I also like how they're showing the Displacer Beast "displacing" itself. Ingenious use of their tentacles.

considering an event from one of their campaign is CANON in wider D&D, that's not a huge surprise.
(It involved the fate of one of Vecna's relics)

Wait.
One of the plots of the cartoon is CANON!? And I'm only JUST NOW finding this out?!
BTW: was chatting up the lil brother and mentioned the cameo, and he HAD NO CLUE WHO I WAS TALKING ABOUT. I said "you know! The 80s cartoon?" and he said Oh... never watched it. DUDE, YOU WERE IN THE ROOM WITH ME!

Hmph. Maybe I should make lavender colored short dress to wear with my blue cloak for the next Con I get to...

[Batman]

Wait. There's a canon for D&D? There's like 17 different realities things can happen in (and that's WITHOUT counting different dimensions within one).

[Rogue 9]

Wait. There's a canon for D&D? There's like 17 different realities things can happen in (and that's WITHOUT counting different dimensions within one).

There's canon for the various campaign settings (in this case Greyhawk, I believe). Ed Greenwood really messes with that, though, by connecting every other setting there is to the Forgotten Realms cosmology. Mordenkainen canonically plane shifts over to hang out in Waterdeep so he can have a night out on the town without being recognized by all and sundry.

[Batman]

'Within' setting canons I am aware of. I didn't know there was an OVERALL one.

[Rogue 9]

The game itself is just a set of rules; it can't have a canon any more than any other math and randomization system can by itself.

[Batman]

I know that, I just thought they might have established a subset of stuff they deemed canon for ALL settings (like 'These gods exist everywhere' or something like that).

[Lord Revan]

This movie is "Forgotten Realms" story (aka same setting as the Baldur's Gate games)

[Solauren]

The original D&D Cartoon is canon. I do not believe it was set in Greyhawk. I believe it has a Mystara connection of some sort (didn't Warduke show up in the D&D Cartoon at one time?). Or it could be one it's own campaign world. I'd have to dig out my Handbook for said series.

The published novels all form a large, interconnected canon, as do all the sourcebooks, accessories, and many of the published adventures. Stuff from Dragon and Dungeon Magazine, and even Polyhedron, are on a case by case basis.
i.e An article updating the timeline of the Forgotten Realms would be considered "event canon", but an article detailing a new form of magic that doesn't show up in the novels or a setting books probably is not.

Individual campaigns just tweak that to their own timeline. (Example - my wife and mine home campaign the reclaimation of Cormanthyr was done by our characters large family and resources, which also took the place of the Crusade to defend Evermeet. We also plan to not have Mystra 'die' in 1385, so no Spell Plague, merging, sundering, etc.)

Critical Role's online campaigns also have elements in them that are now part of the larger D&D canon.
In one case, a player character stole the Hand of Vecna out from the other characters noses, and planeshifted away.
The character's player (actor Joe Manganiello) then gave a semi-dramatic exit from the 'stream'. It legitimately shocked the other players. (I watched that part of the stream, and it's actually damn cool, and pretty hilarious).

In a recent WOTC published book, that character, a servant of Tiamat, is in hell, serving her, and has the Hand of Vecna.

[Lord Revan]

The original D&D Cartoon is canon. I do not believe it was set in Greyhawk. I believe it has a Mystara connection of some sort (didn't Warduke show up in the D&D Cartoon at one time?). Or it could be one it's own campaign world. I'd have to dig out my Handbook for said series.

The published novels all form a large, interconnected canon, as do all the sourcebooks, accessories, and many of the published adventures. Stuff from Dragon and Dungeon Magazine, and even Polyhedron, are on a case by case basis.
i.e An article updating the timeline of the Forgotten Realms would be considered "event canon", but an article detailing a new form of magic that doesn't show up in the novels or a setting books probably is not.

Individual campaigns just tweak that to their own timeline. (Example - my wife and mine home campaign the reclaimation of Cormanthyr was done by our characters large family and resources, which also took the place of the Crusade to defend Evermeet. We also plan to not have Mystra 'die' in 1385, so no Spell Plague, merging, sundering, etc.)

Critical Role's online campaigns also have elements in them that are now part of the larger D&D canon.
In one case, a player character stole the Hand of Vecna out from the other characters noses, and planeshifted away.
The character's player (actor Joe Manganiello) then gave a semi-dramatic exit from the 'stream'. It legitimately shocked the other players. (I watched that part of the stream, and it's actually damn cool, and pretty hilarious).

In a recent WOTC published book, that character, a servant of Tiamat, is in hell, serving her, and has the Hand of Vecna.

Thanks to Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, Exandria(aka the CR setting) itself could be considered a "canon" D&D setting since IIRC there's not a single canon setting but a set of those.

[Solauren]

In this case, I'm referred to 'canon' as 'connected to something published by TSR/WOTC, and acknowledged by such'

[Formless]

'Within' setting canons I am aware of. I didn't know there was an OVERALL one.

They kinda have had since second edition. Planescape and Spelljammer were both exercises in explaining how characters can get from the Realms to Krynn or Grayhawk or Mystara (you can go through portals in the city of Sigil, or you can hop aboard a spelljammer and fly through space to get there), and when they expanded Ravenloft into an entire larger setting, they used the mists as an excuse to give it crossover aspects as well; the mists can appear on any world and take player characters to the domains of dread, allowing any party composition you want. Among the many beings trapped there besides Strahd, you also had Lord Soth from Dragonlance, at least until an adventure path set him free to return to Krynn. Spelljammer was also used to help explain how Tahkisis was able to steal Krynn away from the other gods for a brief period of time: she literally moved the solar system away from where it was, and I guess that's all it took to confuse the other gods. The lich Vecna also started life on one world (Grayhawk, I believe), before his machinations moved him to full deity and effecting not just the Grawhawk pantheon, but the Realms as well.

Of course, this always ran into problems, and those problems had a name-- Dark Sun. Dark Sun wasn't supposed to be a D&D product originally, the designers wanted it to be a standalone wargame, but the idiots in charge of TSR insisted that it wouldn't sell if it didn't have the D&D branding on it and rules for using it as a campaign setting. The problem was that Dark Sun's themes were post-apocalyptic (inspired in part by Barsoom), and so the question was if its so easy to jump on a spelljammer and leave a world behind, why hasn't Athas been completely evacuated already? So they had to make up excuses for why Athas was inaccessible by either of the established world hopping methods that they had created. This wasn't just a thematic problem either, you didn't want a Darksun character appearing in Ravenloft because Darksun had its own rules allowing characters to be much higher power level for level than normal D&D characters. Not only did the setting make it easier to get psionic powers, they used a different method for determining their stats, which allowed them to have greater than average ability scores. This was fine as long as you played these characters on Darksun, because the setting had unforgiving survival rules, class restrictions, healing was hard to come by, and equipment was deliberately kneecapped. But as soon as you let a Darksun character leave the setting, none of those things were applicable anymore, and your class balance was screwed. It really was a completely different game, despite the branding, but corporate couldn't be argued with.

Also, they really kinda went overboard making two different campaign settings just to justify adventurers going to and from Grayhawk and Krynn or wherever else they came from, and ultimately people remember Spelljammer and Planescape more for being their own settings rather than being transitional settings like was intended. They put a lot of work into them, when they could have just designated the shadow plane or something as the part of the cosmology you go through to go from world A to world B (which was what they suggested in third edition instead). Still, it seems Wizards today has a different opinion of how to handle these things in 2023 than they did in 1999, because not only did they resurrect Spelljammer, they are currently working on Planescape, and even introduced a new piece of lore (which some people hate) that all the settings originate from one sort of platonic ideal setting known only as the "First World", so that they can say that certain deities like Tiamat and Takhisis (which are both evil hydras with all five chromatic dragon heads) are actually the same god (you can imagine how much this pisses off Dragonlance fans in particular). So they want to have their cake and eat it too again. Spelljammer has been modified so that now instead of having crystal spheres and phlogiston (which people just found weird), its part of the Astral plane. This might also make it clash less with Planescape. No more Darksun, though not because it clashes with the rest of the game-- at least, the claim is that its content is too "problematic" for the company to feel comfortable updating it in 2023. Pretty much everyone assumes they're talking about all the slavery and genocide that is part and parcel of Dark Sun, and that even if they could fix it, they don't want to open it up for DM's guild and provoke fans of Gor or whatever to start posting that and worse in the guild. I actually can't say I blame them.

But yeah, that's how the various worlds of D&D have been canonically connected in second edition, took a break from that in third and fourth, and are returning to a multiverse in fifth.

However, confusing things is that Wildmount/Exandria is still the copyright of Matt Mercer and Amazon, and they've made statements exempting the three Magic: the Gathering worlds that they have published D&D setting books for, because Magic already has its own multiverse.

[Lord Revan]

However, confusing things is that Wildmount/Exandria is still the copyright of Matt Mercer and Amazon

I thought Critical Role LLC. is the sole owner of the Critical Role (and related material) copyright and was founded party for that purpose?

[Rogue 9]

The international trailer has a couple of new scenes in it.


Spoiler

What's interesting is that we've seen the same spellcaster character now cast both speak with dead and dimension door, which don't overlap on any class spell lists in D&D. (The witch in Pathfinder can do it, but that's obviously not the answer in a D&D branded property.)

[Lord Revan]

Spoiler

The speak with Dead is from an item, WOTC released the character (NPC) sheets from the movie characters and that said the Simon is a) A sorcerer and b) can cast "speak with dead" if he's holding a special item. It would explain why he's not certain if the spell worked as he's casting it thru an item rather then it being naturally part of his spell list

[Formless]

However, confusing things is that Wildmount/Exandria is still the copyright of Matt Mercer and Amazon

I thought Critical Role LLC. is the sole owner of the Critical Role (and related material) copyright and was founded party for that purpose?

Well yes, but that's a detail. Mercer owns the company, therefore Mercer has effective ownership of the copyrights. WotC can't tell anyone what is canon to Exandria because Explorers Guide to Wildmount was (ironically, given recent events) printed under license.

[Solauren]

Still, it seems Wizards today has a different opinion of how to handle these things in 2023 than they did in 1999, because not only did they resurrect Spelljammer, they are currently working on Planescape, and even introduced a new piece of lore (which some people hate) that all the settings originate from one sort of platonic ideal setting known only as the "First World", so that they can say that certain deities like Tiamat and Takhisis (which are both evil hydras with all five chromatic dragon heads) are actually the same god (you can imagine how much this pisses off Dragonlance fans in particular). So they want to have their cake and eat it too again. Spelljammer has been modified so that now instead of having crystal spheres and phlogiston (which people just found weird), its part of the Astral plane. This might also make it clash less with Planescape.

Spelljammer had a partial conversion to 3e in Polyhedron. unfortunately, WOTC Vehicle combat rules were horrible.
(Home campaign uses Pathfinder's vehicle/ship combat rules with stuff from Spelljammer.org tossed on).

Tiamat = Takhisis, and interconnecting the settings predates 2e (2e just did it much bigger).

With Tiamat -
1E Manual of the Planes mentions that Tiamat, when acting as Takhisis, spends a great deal of effort to conceal the existence of the Nine Hells from the world of Krynn and her followers, or the existence of other Archdevils. (Back when she was considered an Archdevil and ruler of Layer 1 of the Nine hells).

As for the Dark Queen stealing Krynn, yeah, that was screwy as hell. I blame the Dragonlance Saga system authors for that.

With the interconnected settings -
You had named spells from Greyhawk showing up in the Realms, mentions of traveling to other worlds in City of Greyhawk Boxed Set, the Realms 1e boxed set, and a few others. Dragonlance 1e's hardback even mentioned that clerics from other worlds don't get spells on Krynn because the local deities block them.

No more Darksun, though not because it clashes with the rest of the game-- at least, the claim is that its content is too "problematic" for the company to feel comfortable updating it in 2023. Pretty much everyone assumes they're talking about all the slavery and genocide that is part and parcel of Dark Sun, and that even if they could fix it, they don't want to open it up for DM's guild and provoke fans of Gor or whatever to start posting that and worse in the guild. I actually can't say I blame them.

A good comparison would be to say D&D was made up of dog breeds. if that was the case, Dark Sun would be a Timber Wolf with rabies.

But yeah, that's how the various worlds of D&D have been canonically connected in second edition, took a break from that in third and fourth, and are returning to a multiverse in fifth.

More accurate - Connected pre2e but it was barely acknowledged, rather prominent in 2e, back to barely acknowledged in 3e, no idea about 4e, and fan demand is restoring the acknowledgement in 5e.

[Rogue 9]

Final trailer.

[LadyTevar]

SCA friend of mine down in Florida now got the Amazon Prime tickets for the Pre-Release.

He enjoyed it -- good use of monsters and other D&D tropes, snappy dialogue, and fun fights. He did say that it wasn't LotR, but it was "great for a night out".

[Lord Revan]

That's what I've been hearing for the few reliable vids I've seen, nothing ground breaking but a fun action movie in a fantasy setting.

[LadyTevar]

That's what I've been hearing for the few reliable vids I've seen, nothing ground breaking but a fun action movie in a fantasy setting.

TBH, I wasn't expecting "Ground-breaking". I want a fun action movie that will let me escape for a while. So far, that's what we seem to have.

[Lord Revan]

That's what I've been hearing for the few reliable vids I've seen, nothing ground breaking but a fun action movie in a fantasy setting.

TBH, I wasn't expecting "Ground-breaking". I want a fun action movie that will let me escape for a while. So far, that's what we seem to have.

I think only people who were expecting something ground breaking are the ones looking for an excuse to bash this film

[Rogue 9]

Or people who are still mad about the OGL. For my part, Hasbro surrendered, so there's no need to continue the boycott.

[Dass.Kapital]

Or people who are still mad about the OGL. For my part, Hasbro surrendered, so there's no need to continue the boycott.

Hasbro surrendered?

Like they changed after their treatment of Judges Guild or Palladium back in the day? Or how they pushed out Gygax, and then the corporate bankers drove the company into the ground. (Yes, I know it was TSR back in these prehistoric times, which leads onto =>) Or how Wizards created a whole new, not backward-compatible game (3.0) with the whole 'Buy all the books again" business model?

Only to have them try the same compounded trick, not just seven years later with 4th edition? A whole new game involving the "Buy all the gooks again" model. Except that enough in the industry pushed the boundaries of their license, and D20 continued to roll onwards without them, causing Hasbro to...

Again, falling back into their now seeming old habits (Since Paizo then came to dominate the market), causing yet another "Completly change the game+"Buy all the books again" drive. This time with a rule set that was B/X/3.X mashup reversion. (Never admit any wrongdoing. Just bull sheet forwards) so as to claw back those who'd continued on with Paizo.

Only to again seek to subsume all possible profits from the movie release earnings (Including doing things like screwing companies over such that Hasbro stifled any productions other than the one from which they would wring the most money) by throwing yet another "Take it all (Plus buy more books again)" ploy (One D&D)?

Hasbro is a corporation. It can't be reasoned with. It can't be bargained with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will. Not. STOP... Ever. Until all other I.P.s are dead.

Please enjoy the movie. I won't be giving Hasbro any money, personally.

Cheers.