SW Galactic Empire amd W40K Imperium of Man vs. Orion's Arm Sephirotic Civs and ST Federation

[Composeure]

As the title says. (Ps feel free to delete, move, or correct this post if the format is somehow wrong, this is my first time posting a thread like this)

Assume that somehow, someway, the SW Galactic Empire and W40K Imperium of Man have encountered each other and have decided to do battle with the Orion's Arm sephirotic civs (whom the IoM would likely see as horrific "abominable intelligences" keeping man in a state of near slavery, and the GE probably as well to a lesser extent) and the ST Federation.

The Orion's Arm sephirotic civs (they occupy little enough of their galaxy that we can handwave them as being in the same one as ST Feds) have also encountered the ST United Federation of Planets and decided to ally with them against the maniacal "meat salad" empires (from their perspectives anyway) bent on their destruction.

Setting: Milky Way Galaxy (assume SW forces have a way to travel here, and that W40K forces were in the same galaxy anyways-- assume it and the Orion's Arm sephirotics replace the main Delta Quadrant and Gamma Quadrant races-- this is basically a handwave for this imaginary hypothetical scenario anyways)

Tech sharing is allowed.

Each faction works with the allied faction reasonably well.

The W40K Warp is mainly inactive but is still unstable enough that Warp Travel is not greatly improved. The SW Force is not overly active either.

No other factions allowed.

Victory is determined by surrender or destruction of opposing factions

Round 1: SW Galactic Empire and W40K Imperium of Man vs Orion's Arm Sephirotic Civs and ST United Federation of Planets (TNG era/24th century)

Round 2: SW Galactic Empire and Golden Age("DAoT") Imperium of Man vs O's a Sephirotic Civs and 29th century ST United Federation of Planets

[NecronLord]

Ultimately while the Empire and IoM can be argued to be K2 or even K3 civilizations by energy expenditure, they're both limited in their numbers to tens of millions of combat vessels or less. The Sephirothic Empires aren't, while most OA stories don't dwell on this it's clear that there's tremendously many weapons systems available to the Archailects and they can deploy these in tremendous numbers.

Round 1: SW Galactic Empire and W40K Imperium of Man vs Orion's Arm Sephirotic Civs and ST United Federation of Planets (TNG era/24th century)

With tech sharing this is simply a non-issue, the Sephirothics will very quickly get quantum slipstream, transwarp, protostar drive or other high speed FTL working, at which case we're taking serious K2 civs just drowning their enemies in high speed weapons platforms. Given the major limitation on slipstream is synthesis of beanamite crystals, and the Sephirothic Empires have industry far beyond any of these cultures, it'll be a solved problem even if they can't make a more stable slipstream drive, they can just roll coal until they win and dedicate a dyson cloud or two to synthesising slipstream engines.

That's not even counting what a K2+ can do with treknology generally; the DMA from Star Trek Discovery Season 4 springs to mind.

Round 2: SW Galactic Empire and Golden Age("DAoT") Imperium of Man vs O's a Sephirotic Civs and 29th century ST United Federation of Planets

Humiliatingly for the Dark Age of Technology humans, they fall faster than the Imperium.

Pax Imperialis by Gordon Rennie. Published in Issue 36 of Warhammer Monthly, November 2000, features a confirmation from an (insane) AI from that time period that hacking/subversion was its preferred method of operation. So the DAoT period was clearly not immune to such things. The Sephirothic Empires are going to be better than them at that almost by definition given their access to an innumerable set of transsapient intelligences I don't think we need to elaborate on, which haven't been shown for the DAoT, which means a lot of droids (various droid revolts have shown the possibility exists for SW too) and men of iron (and stone perhaps) are going to be defecting almost immediately.

People hype up the DAoT ships we've seen, but they're not that impressive compared to IoM ones- they can one-shot single enemy vessels but they're hardly wiping out thousands of ships, we saw that the Adeptus Mechanicus had chased Spirit of Eternity off with weight of numbers and while it was able to single-shot an AdMech ship later it still ran from a second engagement despite having restored main power. We've no indication they had industry able to deal with the Sephirothics dropping a billion warships on any resistance.

[Composeure]

Fwiw, I figured the tremendous amount of wank about the DAoT IoM and other W40K groups was just that: wank.

I also figured that the IoM would be the weak link in this alliance mostly due to the anemic/pathetic industrial capibility of most W40K factions (which gets ignored by most W40K wankers as well as a variety of other things but let's not dwell on that) the same way I figured the ST factions would be reduced to basically a warehouse of assorted Trek-tech for its "ally".

However, I must dispute your conclusion. First off, the majority of Trek tech noted is either a one off that was never duplicated (and in some cases, tech the UFP never even developed) or dangerously unsafe to use. Frankly, I find the sudden efficacy of TNG era Trek tech to be rather facetious due to the amount of evidence this site has gathered to the contrary on their general capabilities (also isn't the Protostar being taken on a joyride by some alien teens? Hardly in the best spot for use). I also don't think that "being smarter/having larger industry" somehow allows one to make specific ST bullshitonium out of nothing. Most of the most "reliable" stuff is not in large use anyways, and would still be slower.

Also, it must be noted that, due to the nature of Orions arm (a post whatever you want pseudo wiki) it has accomplished the rather challenging goal of making W40K lore look consistent. Numbers may change from post to post, new pieces of wanktech might cease to exist in one "canon" of the writers to another, and so on.

(Incidentally, on a slightly off topic note, I recall that site has an immense amount of nerd snobbery coupled with an equally large amount of downplay of scifi the writers dislike-- some examples being placing themselves near to the top of their own made up "scifi hardness scale" and the tremendous downplay concerning the capabilities of various mainstream scifi on their forums and even some posts.)

In addition, a thread on this subject has already been written (named SW Galactic Empire vs Orions arm Sephirotic civs) and it was concluded there more or less the GE would win (note that practically all of the posters there have on both sides have become inactive, though all the posters had working knowledge of the factions concerned).

Ps: Also, I frankly think the "Kardashev scale" is a practically useless means of measurement, especially when it comes to "debates". It fails to consider many many things, such as special factors, "tech level", and a bunch of other stuff that could possibly be relevant to scifi, and even real life.

[bilateralrope]

In addition, a thread on this subject has already been written (named SW Galactic Empire vs Orions arm Sephirotic civs) and it was concluded there more or less the GE would win (note that practically all of the posters there have on both sides have become inactive, though all the posters had working knowledge of the factions concerned).

From memory about other OA discussions, they lack any form of FTL. That is a major strategic disadvantage.

One you have removed in this scenario.

[Adam Reynolds]

However, I must dispute your conclusion. First off, the majority of Trek tech noted is either a one off that was never duplicated (and in some cases, tech the UFP never even developed) or dangerously unsafe to use. Frankly, I find the sudden efficacy of TNG era Trek tech to be rather facetious due to the amount of evidence this site has gathered to the contrary on their general capabilities (also isn't the Protostar being taken on a joyride by some alien teens? Hardly in the best spot for use). I also don't think that "being smarter/having larger industry" somehow allows one to make specific ST bullshitonium out of nothing. Most of the most "reliable" stuff is not in large use anyways, and would still be slower.

The intellectual output of the Federation relative to Sephirothic civs is like comparing the intellectual output of ancient Athens alone against all of modern Earth collectively. With its anti-transhumanist mindset and limitations of the development of artificial intelligence, the Federation is extremely limited in what they can accomplish in terms of scientific development. Sephirothic civs don't have these imitations and can devote comparatively unlimited intellectual output towards the various problems, at which point at least one of the more exotic approaches is bound to work, which would negate the speed advantage that the opposition would otherwise have.

(Incidentally, on a slightly off topic note, I recall that site has an immense amount of nerd snobbery coupled with an equally large amount of downplay of scifi the writers dislike-- some examples being placing themselves near to the top of their own made up "scifi hardness scale" and the tremendous downplay concerning the capabilities of various mainstream scifi on their forums and even some posts.)

It's because they obsess over FTL issues being the end all be all of realism. On one hand they are mostly correct in the sense that FTL is one of the few science fiction ideas we can say is more or less impossible, but on the other hand their take on transhumanism has more than a few scientific problems of its own.

[Composeure]

Yeah I recall a few specialists on this forum went over the site and found out that their claims of ""hardness"" are false and the setting itself is sitting at a rating that is practically gaseous. Especially so when you note that, due to the very nature of the site, it's laughably easy to write up some kind of "amazing new capability" (or ignore one for that matter). Which now that I think of it probably damages its usability for debates to some extent.

Fwiw the FTL is still shitty. And it wasn't like it was the only thing preventing a victory-- quite a bit of debate in that other thread revolved around dredging up facts about "firepower", ship capabilities, g-forces, and such.

Incidentally, I have no idea where we are getting IoM fleet numbers being so high-- wank aside, I recall the number is notably lower.

[NecronLord]

Fwiw, I figured the tremendous amount of wank about the DAoT IoM and other W40K groups was just that: wank.

I also figured that the IoM would be the weak link in this alliance mostly due to the anemic/pathetic industrial capibility of most W40K factions (which gets ignored by most W40K wankers as well as a variety of other things but let's not dwell on that) the same way I figured the ST factions would be reduced to basically a warehouse of assorted Trek-tech for its "ally".

However, I must dispute your conclusion. First off, the majority of Trek tech noted is either a one off that was never duplicated (and in some cases, tech the UFP never even developed) or dangerously unsafe to use. Frankly, I find the sudden efficacy of TNG era Trek tech to be rather facetious due to the amount of evidence this site has gathered to the contrary on their general capabilities (also isn't the Protostar being taken on a joyride by some alien teens? Hardly in the best spot for use). I also don't think that "being smarter/having larger industry" somehow allows one to make specific ST bullshitonium out of nothing. Most of the most "reliable" stuff is not in large use anyways, and would still be slower.

They built a new Protostar, for what it's worth, there's likely reasons they're not going to keep using that drive technology, but how much they'd apply here is questionable.

This site is generally very outdated, given the new material we've seen, certainly the main site, and we can see just how much the limited FTL of star trek is a near nonissue to an AI of superhuman intelligence in Star Trek Discovery's Season 2, where all indications are that Control would very rapidly become a galaxy spanning force, likewise we see that the borg rely on their intellectual abilities to regulate transwarp hubs in Voyager, and there are no shortage of other examples.

According to the Prodigy creators, the real USS Dauntless does have a limited form of slipstream drive, and we know from ST Discovery that it pans out by the 31st century to the point where small courier ships are equipped with the drive and only a shortage of the crystals limits it. We also see that the USS Dauntless can cross the galaxy to reach the Diviner's headquarters in the Delta Quadrant in a reasonable time, and that's a deployed ship in service that Admiral Janeway is using.

Also, it must be noted that, due to the nature of Orions arm (a post whatever you want pseudo wiki) it has accomplished the rather challenging goal of making W40K lore look consistent. Numbers may change from post to post, new pieces of wanktech might cease to exist in one "canon" of the writers to another, and so on.

That's verging on an ad hominem. It does have canon rules, as I recall, and we can disscuss it.

(Incidentally, on a slightly off topic note, I recall that site has an immense amount of nerd snobbery coupled with an equally large amount of downplay of scifi the writers dislike-- some examples being placing themselves near to the top of their own made up "scifi hardness scale" and the tremendous downplay concerning the capabilities of various mainstream scifi on their forums and even some posts.)

Off topic for sure, it's not uncommon for authors to trash talk, even where that can be disputed - GRRM constantly trash talks JRRT and the optimistic outcome of LotR without addressing that LotR comes with extensive appendices that detail what happens afterwards, claiming we never find out about how Aragorn rules, but it doesn't mean Gondor would beat Westeros just because GRRM's trash talk might be unwarranted.

In addition, a thread on this subject has already been written (named SW Galactic Empire vs Orions arm Sephirotic civs) and it was concluded there more or less the GE would win (note that practically all of the posters there have on both sides have become inactive, though all the posters had working knowledge of the factions concerned).

Was that before Star Wars canon was firmly changed to clarify that the production run of the ISD is 25,000 ships only, and that the majority of the Death Star's power supply comes from magic crystals that are a fossil fuel they can't afford to put on every ship?

The board has traditionally taken a very dim view of 'reverse engineering' so most of those discussions discount the possibility of the OA civs integrating anyone else's FTL. This is mostly due to some fallacious arguments about SW v ST reverse engineering. They don't really apply in a scenario where one ally is likely to just willingly give their textbooks and trainers (and holograms of their trainers) over.

Ps: Also, I frankly think the "Kardashev scale" is a practically useless means of measurement, especially when it comes to "debates". It fails to consider many many things, such as special factors, "tech level", and a bunch of other stuff that could possibly be relevant to scifi, and even real life.

I generally follow Brian Young's methodology, in which for stellar powers the most important factor by far is FTL - you can't win if you can't get there, after all - but logistics and supply chain are #2; access to stellar scale energies and industrial production (legends SW).

Things like firepower and special technologies come behind those.

Yeah I recall a few specialists on this forum went over the site and found out that their claims of ""hardness"" are false and the setting itself is sitting at a rating that is practically gaseous. Especially so when you note that, due to the very nature of the site, it's laughably easy to write up some kind of "amazing new capability" (or ignore one for that matter). Which now that I think of it probably damages its usability for debates to some extent.

Fwiw the FTL is still shitty. And it wasn't like it was the only thing preventing a victory-- quite a bit of debate in that other thread revolved around dredging up facts about "firepower", ship capabilities, g-forces, and such.

Incidentally, I have no idea where we are getting IoM fleet numbers being so high-- wank aside, I recall the number is notably lower.

People often forget that certain things are outliers. As an anecdote, I had an argument on another forum earlier this year about the size of imperial titans, with multiple 40k fans committed to depend that the two texts that imply they're a mile high, one of which was later altered when repbulished, mean that this is equally valid compared to the many, many texts that imply they're tens of meters.

Horus brought tens of thousands of ships to Sol in his grand fleet in the Siege (Solar War) and that's broadly in line with what we'd see in the old BFG lore, and even last week (thursday) Imperium Maledictum published a new sector lore supporting the old BFG sector and fleet sizes of 200 worlds a sector 50 ships of the line per sector - which gives an imperial navy of about a quarter million ships of the line. These kind of numbers are the modal numbers (we can by the by argue up to maybe a few million ships, that's the Navis Imperialis, there's also the Basilikon Astra, Astartes Chapters, Rogue Traders, on long term loan to the Ecclesiarchy, fleet reserves [of course overall numbers are surely much depleted in the current era though to support the Indomitus Crusade and replenish Cicatrix Maledictum losses and many of those ships being cut off])

[Composeure]

Addressing points in order:

1. Most of this is somewhat irrelevant since most of it is speculation. Also, I have no idea where "galaxy spanning influence" is coming from concerning Control, considering the limited resources of the UFP itself. In fact, iirc Control should be moot since either at the time of the scenarios it doesn't exist or it was decommissioned in yet another ST "ai is evil!11!" (I exaggerate in terms of phrasing a bit of course).

2. I already noted that there are canon rules; it's just that they are little enforced. This still doesn't change the fact that "canon" rules don't necessarily equal "scientifically accurate" (at all), do not mean that "all fiction must bow to my canon rules", and that the initial point I'm making wouldn't be affected anyways (case in point: the sheer quantity of nanowank in blatant defiance of physics, vague "one post wonder" descriptions that never appear anywhere else that make meaningful calcs nigh impossible). Honestly what little lore exists has major propaganda vibes.

3. Honestly this imo falls in the same category of Disney making Stormtroopers incompetents and SW Rebels giving turbolasers less firepower than howitzers. No real comment tbh other than noting that debating the nature of rampant retcons making a faction much weaker doesn't make for appealing debates.

Note that for the "Legends" canon/EU Canon nothing has changed anyways.

4. No real arguments against reverse engineering in this specific situation other than debating the wanking of "intelligence == victory!" and the efficacy of mainstream ST ftl anyways. More specifically, the fundamental problem remains that trying to claim higher intelligence will simply allow for some incredible ST style "one-shot wonder" solution(s) that will arbitrarily grant them victory is not really a viable claim (otherwise, it would make as much sense to simply claim that upon accessing UFP science, the Sephirotics realize transcending to "almighty ascended being" is possible and leverage their "greater intellects" to accomplish this to gain victory-- I jest of course, but this is basically the "logical" conclusion of this line of reasoning). Mainstream ST FTL is still very slow.

5. Off topic yeah, but certain claims are pretty absurd.

6. Then the Kardashev scale fails by default since anything concerning FTL would require exploitation of forces that our current physics even now can't understand, much less back then. This is off topic tbh but something of some interest.

7. The most (unrealistically) optimistic claims for the IoM (that involve claims that the 50-75 warships a fleet from BFG iirc constitute capital vessels by themselves and not their escorts) grant them in the neighborhood of 5 million ships, mixed with whatever privately owned stuff people can muster or that can be commandeered (I doubt there are thousands of Rogue Traders faffing around with cruisers and such anyways). The actual consensus even in the community itself seems to be 2-3 million total under the Imperium Navy proper.

[NecronLord]

Addressing points in order:

1. Most of this is somewhat irrelevant since most of it is speculation. Also, I have no idea where "galaxy spanning influence" is coming from concerning Control, considering the limited resources of the UFP itself. In fact, iirc Control should be moot since either at the time of the scenarios it doesn't exist or it was decommissioned in yet another ST "ai is evil!11!" (I exaggerate in terms of phrasing a bit of course).

I actually thought I'd edited mention of it out before posting as its existence was predicated on the Sphere Data, but of course, it doesn't much matter.

What is worth discussing is the quantum slipstream, because that isn't a one shot wonder, along with transwarp that's well established to be a real system that works and can be replicated. In fact further checking regarding prodigy it is stated on screen that the Dauntless uses it:

"The real me is hunting us with a quantum slipstream Dauntless-class starship? Good luck with that!"

There you go, a completed, federation-built slipstream vessel in the 24th century. And just in case there's any doubt:



Notice that while they're at 'warp' Acencia says that they could divert power from the quantum slipstream. Different episodes, same show.

It's also established that this technology becomes commonplace in later eras:

I got to get my cargo to a certain planet by a certain time, so, unless you have benamite lying around, and no one does, I can't fly quantum slipstream.

Here in 2023, quantum slipstream is no longer a one shot - it wasn't in 2003, either, in that it's in two episodes of Voyager, and was always one of the most promising elements of the show as regards the Federation getting faster FTL, as unlike other forms of FTL that were theorized, we were shown even in Voy - Hope and Fear in 1998, a completed ship that worked and had it, albeit not a Federation one. Along with transwarp there's reasons fans talk about these - they both appear in multiple episodes as developed technologies in alien hands; but now we're seeing them in Federation hands too.

Real one shots, like coaxial warp drive, the Traveller's antics, spatial trajectors, and so on, aren't discussed as much because they're not shown to be as in-reach and deployable, though several of them are shown to definitely work.

Someone sufficiently motivated could work out the speed of the Dauntless from its trip to Tars Lamora in the Delta Quadrant, as we're also told that it's in the Carina Nebula, which Voyager was passing in season 7 of its show, in Inside Man, where it was said to be thirty thousand light years away. By extension that means it was able to make a sixty thousand year round trip in a practical timeframe.

2. I already noted that there are canon rules; it's just that they are little enforced. This still doesn't change the fact that "canon" rules don't necessarily equal "scientifically accurate" (at all), do not mean that "all fiction must bow to my canon rules", and that the initial point I'm making wouldn't be affected anyways (case in point: the sheer quantity of nanowank in blatant defiance of physics, vague "one post wonder" descriptions that never appear anywhere else that make meaningful calcs nigh impossible). Honestly what little lore exists has major propaganda vibes.

"Your technobabble is garbage and therefore should be dismissed as propaganda" is traditionally not acceptable as a debating position.

3. Honestly this imo falls in the same category of Disney making Stormtroopers incompetents and SW Rebels giving turbolasers less firepower than howitzers. No real comment tbh other than noting that debating the nature of rampant retcons making a faction much weaker doesn't make for appealing debates.

Note that for the "Legends" canon/EU Canon nothing has changed anyways.

Those are indeed what Star Wars is now. You can specify you're wanting to talk about Legends continuity if you want, but Star Wars without a qualifier means canon Star Wars, where Stormtroopers are trained shittily, there are 25,000 ISDs only, and turbolasers have some really poor showings.

4. No real arguments against reverse engineering in this specific situation other than debating the wanking of "intelligence == victory!" and the efficacy of mainstream ST ftl anyways. More specifically, the fundamental problem remains that trying to claim higher intelligence will simply allow for some incredible ST style "one-shot wonder" solution(s) that will arbitrarily grant them victory is not really a viable claim (otherwise, it would make as much sense to simply claim that upon accessing UFP science, the Sephirotics realize transcending to "almighty ascended being" is possible and leverage their "greater intellects" to accomplish this to gain victory-- I jest of course, but this is basically the "logical" conclusion of this line of reasoning). Mainstream ST FTL is still very slow.

6. Then the Kardashev scale fails by default since anything concerning FTL would require exploitation of forces that our current physics even now can't understand, much less back then. This is off topic tbh but something of some interest.

Kardashev intended it to be used in a real world concept where 'fictional physics' doesn't come into play of course.

7. The most (unrealistically) optimistic claims for the IoM (that involve claims that the 50-75 warships a fleet from BFG iirc constitute capital vessels by themselves and not their escorts) grant them in the neighborhood of 5 million ships, mixed with whatever privately owned stuff people can muster or that can be commandeered (I doubt there are thousands of Rogue Traders faffing around with cruisers and such anyways). The actual consensus even in the community itself seems to be 2-3 million total under the Imperium Navy proper.

It can be argued a number of ways but the order of magnitude is either 10^7 or 10^6 yes.

[Composeure]

On the topic of the retcons, well if that's true for the ""new canon"" I suppose I won't be too sad about it anyways, considering I have little enough attachment to SW or ST as they are anyways.

Fwiw a number of the arguments here still seem to be predicated upon the Sephirotics cranking out arbitrary numbers of unknown one shot wonder Trek-tech despite having no context for most of that entire "tech tree" for lack of a better term (although I don't dispute that the pitifully small UFP still gets taken over basically) I still dispute that gaining access to UFP science equals unlimited "arbitrary Trek tech" progress of things even the UFP can't make. Afaik quantum slipstream is still slower, and might need notable warmup time-- also, even in TNG isn't the amount of quantum slipstream ships limited to like single or double digits? Just a note since I really don't think QS was truly mainstream at any point in the series.

The relevant point here isn't "disliking technobabble" it's noting that, even in the thread I referenced, much of the referenced aspects the opposing side was bringing up lack solid numbers other than vaguely described in world spectacle. This, alongside with the aforementioned vague "statistics" that can change post to post on the site (a real concern with sources such as this), does constitute a major difficulty in making calls on anything.

But frankly at this point I'm more debating for the sake of not vastly overestimating what is by any measure a "obscure source" as noted by one of the pinned posts on this board. Because rn I have both very little respect for tin pot tyrannies that apparently don't even have any real legitimacy at this point (current state of SW GE Canon as Disney property) and snobbish self contradicting nerdwank (orions arm).

[NecronLord]

It's pretty well established in the Orion's Arm milieu that these people have many, many Jupiter Brains, Dyson Swarms, and similar structures, that's pretty much core to the setting, and that itself shows a truly vast industrial output compared to the other parties, really.

[Composeure]

This is addressed in the other thread, but this shows a large capability to build large objects, not necessarily superior firepower, nor ability to analyze and construct totally foreign tech from scratch. Then again even in the "lore" itself it seems such things have special priority as necessary for the AIs to the neglect of most other things.

But frankly I think this is mostly moot since the sheer incompetence/weakness of the retconned sides mean they are practically guaranteed to lose in almost any debate now. I still protest that this site is "outdated" when it comes to Star Trek.

[NecronLord]

There's a distinct likelihood that a historic thread from the portion of the board's history in the early 2000s might not be entirely impartial about the Galactic Empire, we were all very fond of taking a very combative approach back in the day. By the same token, OA has been updated significantly since then.

For a few examples of the scale of this setting's combat, we have multiple examples of planetary scale or stellar objects being converted to warships. There's nothing like that in Star Wars Canon or Star Trek. The numbers for this boggle the mind.

As to the main site, you can of course make your own website or update the Imperial Wiki. The forums are generally fairly up to date - in that we talk about things as they drop. But looking at stuff from ten years ago or more will give you a snap shot of how these IPs were, not how they are. Amusingly Warhammer may be the least changed.

[Composeure]

Fwiw the examples you give have been around on that site since the beginning basically, so that's nothing new (note that those same examples tout totally biological "hardware" as being able to do everything normal hardware does which is scientifically suspect for various reasons). Also I read over them and I cannot see how you came to the conclusion of "transforming suns and planets into weapons" from the vague and devoid of statistics descriptions present. Fwiw the vast majority of relevant to debate items have not changed much anyways, and iirc the lore itself is hinting that things have more or less hit a plateau.

Again, that other thread is hardly "lies" or bias.

Yeah I personally believe W40K is one of the most overestimated factions in scifi.

Frankly ST still hasn't changed much, other than a few things seen in Prodigy (a kids show of all things) and the more out there plots in Discovery.

Again, at this point I'm less arguing for any faction and arguing against wanking an obscure source (that, frankly, is formatted and written in such a manner that such behavior is unfortunately likely).

[NecronLord]

At this point you're basically just ad-hominem attacking OA because you don't like it? I'm hardly a fan myself - I don't think I've read more than one of their actual stories and I've browsed the website a few times and that's about it, but that's not really the basis for an argument.

[Composeure]

You didn't actually address the pertinent points raised underneath the slightly (minimally, really, if the many other exchanges on this forum are any precedent) spicy phrasing fwiw. In fact you really haven't been doing so for many recent posts but frankly this thread is winding down anyways.

Tbh this thread really kind of became moot at some point in regards to the actual scenario.

[NecronLord]

You didn't actually address the pertinent points raised underneath the slightly (minimally, really, if the many other exchanges on this forum are any precedent) spicy phrasing fwiw. In fact you really haven't been doing so for many recent posts but frankly this thread is winding down anyways.

Tbh this thread really kind of became moot at some point in regards to the actual scenario.

If you want your points addressed, then by all means.

As to spicy. Again it's clear you've read the oldest content on this forum but not necessarily since. You'll notice our last rule was to cut down the trash talk and sniping.

Fwiw the examples you give have been around on that site since the beginning basically, so that's nothing new (note that those same examples tout totally biological "hardware" as being able to do everything normal hardware does which is scientifically suspect for various reasons).

None of which matter in a Vs. You don't get to say a nBSG battlestar would beat a Tyranid Hive Ship because the latter is implauible biostuff.

Also I read over them and I cannot see how you came to the conclusion of "transforming suns and planets into weapons" from the vague and devoid of statistics descriptions present.

Sure. Let's look more at OA Logistics

Projects which require logistical planning and support include the construction and maintenance of habitats and habitable megastructures; resources for life support in biospheres, stations and ecumenopoli; the raw materials required for processing substrates such as computronium nodes, moon-brains, planetary brains and stellar-scale intelligent superobjects such as Matriosha brains, and the construction and supply of interplanetary and interstellar craft.

Resources for these projects can be extracted from molecular clouds and other nebulae, from asteroid belts and Oort clouds, the mining and disassembly of planets, from accretion disks around black holes and protostars, and from the atmospheric envelopes or interiors of stars via star mining and star lifting.

Please show me a source for the Imperium of Man or Disney Star Wars matching this industrial throughput.

Fwiw the vast majority of relevant to debate items have not changed much anyways, and iirc the lore itself is hinting that things have more or less hit a plateau.

Again, that other thread is hardly "lies" or bias.

I have no idea, I've not looked at it.

Yeah I personally believe W40K is one of the most overestimated factions in scifi.

Frankly ST still hasn't changed much, other than a few things seen in Prodigy (a kids show of all things) and the more out there plots in Discovery.

I have things to say about Picard S4 and the USS Titan's speed (tl;dr it's a Lot faster than Voyager, it's not as fast as the Protostar or Dauntless, but it seems even basic warp drive has improved, but we don't need to get into that in this thread.

Again, at this point I'm less arguing for any faction and arguing against wanking an obscure source (that, frankly, is formatted and written in such a manner that such behavior is unfortunately likely).

All or Orion's Arm is obscure. It's like writing a vs thread with Skylark of Space and then moaning that the book is obscure so it shouldn't be able to drive-by the galaxy.

[NecronLord]

You didn't actually address the pertinent points raised underneath the slightly (minimally, really, if the many other exchanges on this forum are any precedent) spicy phrasing fwiw. In fact you really haven't been doing so for many recent posts but frankly this thread is winding down anyways.

Tbh this thread really kind of became moot at some point in regards to the actual scenario.

If you want your points addressed, then by all means.

As to spicy. Again it's clear you've read the oldest content on this forum but not necessarily since. You'll notice our last rule was to cut down the trash talk and sniping.

Fwiw the examples you give have been around on that site since the beginning basically, so that's nothing new (note that those same examples tout totally biological "hardware" as being able to do everything normal hardware does which is scientifically suspect for various reasons).

None of which matter in a Vs. You don't get to say a nBSG battlestar would beat a Tyranid Hive Ship because the latter is implauible biostuff.

Also I read over them and I cannot see how you came to the conclusion of "transforming suns and planets into weapons" from the vague and devoid of statistics descriptions present.

Sure. Let's look more at OA Logistics

Projects which require logistical planning and support include the construction and maintenance of habitats and habitable megastructures; resources for life support in biospheres, stations and ecumenopoli; the raw materials required for processing substrates such as computronium nodes, moon-brains, planetary brains and stellar-scale intelligent superobjects such as Matriosha brains, and the construction and supply of interplanetary and interstellar craft.

Resources for these projects can be extracted from molecular clouds and other nebulae, from asteroid belts and Oort clouds, the mining and disassembly of planets, from accretion disks around black holes and protostars, and from the atmospheric envelopes or interiors of stars via star mining and star lifting.

Please show me a source for the Imperium of Man or Disney Star Wars matching this industrial throughput. Anything suggesting either faction (not the Votann the Imperium) disassemble whole planets for industrial uses.

Fwiw the vast majority of relevant to debate items have not changed much anyways, and iirc the lore itself is hinting that things have more or less hit a plateau.

Again, that other thread is hardly "lies" or bias.

I have no idea, I've not looked at it.

Yeah I personally believe W40K is one of the most overestimated factions in scifi.

Frankly ST still hasn't changed much, other than a few things seen in Prodigy (a kids show of all things) and the more out there plots in Discovery.

I have things to say about Picard S4 and the USS Titan's speed (tl;dr it's a Lot faster than Voyager, it's not as fast as the Protostar or Dauntless, but it seems even basic warp drive has improved, but we don't need to get into that in this thread.

Again, at this point I'm less arguing for any faction and arguing against wanking an obscure source (that, frankly, is formatted and written in such a manner that such behavior is unfortunately likely).

All of Orion's Arm is obscure. It's like writing a vs thread with Skylark of Space and then moaning that the book is obscure so it shouldn't be able to drive-by the galaxy.

[Composeure]

Obligatory double post alert. But more on topic:

Again that logistics thread did not say anything about industry speed and amount or even much of detail on how, merely that it is possible and is done (a pattern evident throughout the site tbh-- note this is an observation, not "ad hominem").

Also to be frank your original comment was rather misleading. If I hear someone say that something was "weaponized" I'm going to think it was turned into some kind of superweapon. This is "mere" resource extraction. Not downplaying, but under such a definition irl we "weaponized" the planet around the Bronze age .

Going to ignore some arguments raised about "obscurity" and "spicy language" because frankly they aren't very relevant (and I already addressed the former anyways). I may as well note that, for someone who claims to know very little about orions arm, you come across as very sure of yourself in terms of debating it, but that's not very relevant I suppose.

Fwiw I actually did post a thread back on the ST thing asking about how ST changed in Discovery etc. and still didn't find a ton of evidence that ST overall changed by huge degrees. Agree this has become pretty irrelevant in this thread at least.

That other thread is the one where "Legends canon" (apparently specification is necessary now) GE was agreed to win, with posters knowledgeable of both sides arguing using relevant points and links (ie decidedly unbiased). Of note is the fact that orions arm had by that time gotten at least a couple of analysis threads by posters on this site, so it's not as obscure here as it is in general.

Having said that, I frankly think the immensely (and illogically) weak Disney Canon GE would lose, as would the IoM on its own since the latter is weak to the point of genuinely conflicting with its own lore and the latter is ridiculously set in its own ways and stagnant (I believe W40K is one of the most overestimated things in scifi).

But yeah, to bring this thread to an end I think very little will actually come out of this at this point.