W40K Imperium of Man vs. Star Trek United Federation of Planets

[Eternal_Freedom]

If the UFP has to fight on their own, then they're very, very fucked. And since they're the aforementioend xenos-loving, techno-heresy-embracing non-Emperor worshipping selves, they can't even throw themselves on the Imperium's (extremely questionable) mercy.

Though for some reason I have this hilarious mental image of the Klingons deciding to identify Khaless with the Emperor and petitioning to become accepted abhumans and forming Imperial Guard Shock Regiments.

A more fun question might be "what happens when the Imperium encounters the Borg."

[Composeure]

Yeah but I know ST Voyager had even more retarded plots where space faring races were running around kidnapping humans for the sole purpose of slavery. And that specific scene has quite a bit more wonky things about it.

Yeah but those aren't particularly relevant. Fwiw the last two are rather limited in scope anyways (at least the first one). And ST has quite a bit of mysticism masquarading under technobabble anyhow. Not looking to debate this since again none of this is real relevant rn.

And on the IoM vs the Borg I would lean towards the IoM. This site has done a rather extensive job of analyzing the Borg's might (or lack thereof).

[NecronLord]

It does take some blithe unselfawareness to throw shade at Star Trek for having space mysticism in a discussion vs. 40k, to be fair.

The Imperium's chief problems with regard to the borg is that the Imperium is splendidly ill equipped to actually defend its territory or stop people being assimilated.

The good news for them is that the Imperium's entire population don't understand their tech base so assimilating them won't necessarily make it any more replicable.

[Composeure]

Still honestly can't believe the amount of half assed plot points ST had sometimes. Also not going to continue engaging with a point that is frankly irrelevant. Fwiw I actually dislike W40K.

""Splendidly ill equipped to defend"" not that I actually think this is wrong but could you quantify this?

[Rogue 9]

The Borg aren't typically very subtle; they're not Genestealers. And I'd like to see them adapt to battle cannon rounds to the face.

[Jub]

If a holographic Tommy-gun can kill them do we even want to know what bolters would do?

[NecronLord]

""Splendidly ill equipped to defend"" not that I actually think this is wrong but could you quantify this?

Huge portions of the Imperium are isolated and without access to either starships or high end defence tech. Some do have system ships and planetary defences, but a great many do not.



The borg are entirely capable of having common sense and attacking isolated colonies to research their enemies before they engage, they do this in TNG Neutral Zone and again in BoBW.

The Imperium takes continous casualties from small raids and I don't doubt the borg could do so for some time before encountering a direct retaliation; eldar corsairs, ork freebooters and more manage to persist for centuries or even indefinately in some cases after all. Whether the borg would be able to assimilate enough information to start making adamantium-clad tactical cubes and lance batteries, we can't know, but unlike the UFP the borg aren't confined to one area of the galaxy, and aren't limited in what they do.

If a holographic Tommy-gun can kill them do we even want to know what bolters would do?

Oh the troops with boltguns would kill them, but the troops with boltguns are a vanishingly small minority.

Sometimes we forget that the only 'standard' borg operation we see is Dark Frontier where they just turn up in orbit, sweep away defending ships, and then begin beaming the entire population up, sans guns. That'd be devastating on a huge number of imperial planets.

[Jub]

Oh the troops with boltguns would kill them, but the troops with boltguns are a vanishingly small minority.

There's also a chance that lasguns could work and even if they don't stubbers, shotguns, and frag grenades will and exist in large quantities.

[NecronLord]

Oh the troops with boltguns would kill them, but the troops with boltguns are a vanishingly small minority.

There's also a chance that lasguns could work and even if they don't stubbers, shotguns, and frag grenades will and exist in large quantities.

As far as we can see the SOP is to just beam people up, and presumably that involves something similar to the Federation's Transporter Code Five (DS9 to the Death, there's other examples where weapons are merely disabled though), which just doesn't reintegrate weapons. We don't hear any weapons discharges from the species 10026 people being assimilated, so it seems no defensive arms came through.

Planetary defence trooper Bob isn't going to do much with his autogun or grenade if they're still in the transport buffer.

[Composeure]

Again, could we please get some quantification for "huge portions are isolated and without defense"? Not that I disagree, but this is rather vague. Also, for places with means for defense, could they beat a Borg attack?

Also fwiw I think the point of that weapon comparison was to point out that the Borg have actually really lousy personal combat capabilities. Also, not to be pedantic but did the ""beaming up"" thing happen off screen? Since in that scene there's just a lot of screaming (and the Borg cube itself was damaged apparently?).

[NecronLord]

Again, could we please get some quantification for "huge portions are isolated and without defense"? Not that I disagree, but this is rather vague.

Certainly.

Refer to p. 140 of Battlefleet Gothic shich gave a 33% chance of any given Agri or Mining world having no planetary defences at all, including ground based installations and system ships.

Also, for places with means for defense, could they beat a Borg attack?

Initially, yes. Whether the borg could come to adopt local technologies fast enough to make that dubious is an open question, but given the glacial slowness of the Imperium which sometimes takes centuries to respond to raider activity...

Also fwiw I think the point of that weapon comparison was to point out that the Borg have actually really lousy personal combat capabilities. Also, not to be pedantic but did the ""beaming up"" thing happen off screen? Since in that scene there's just a lot of screaming (and the Borg cube itself was damaged apparently?).

The diamond was was damaged during ship to ship combat shortly before. How do you think the large quantity of people got onto the borg ship, flapping their wings?

[Composeure]

...damn. W40K might even be more deficient than I thought.

On the last point-- not really going to continue to argue this point other than note that without context that scene alone honestly tells very little.

[NecronLord]

...damn. W40K might even be more deficient than I thought.

On the last point-- not really going to continue to argue this point other than note that without context that scene alone honestly tells very little.

I'd note that planets with no anti-orbit defences is pretty de-rigeur in space operatic sci-fi, what planetary defences do Tatooine or Eadau have in Star Wars?

As to Dark Frontier, the full episode is transcribed here if you can't get at it another way. Note that this is the only time we see a full planetary assimilation, in all other examples either the protagonists arrive too late, like Jurit 4/New Providence above, it happens off screen "they assimilate whole worlds and we fall back" or in Voyager a few times we hear about some world being doomed but don't see it, or of course, the borg are foiled by plot contrivance. This is the only time we actually see what they do on screen.

Given how nasty it is (at least for 90s TV), it's not surprising we don't see it more often.

[Composeure]

It's somewhat disingenuous to switch to a narrative claim about tropes as well as specifically use those two as examples considering they are practically the definition of ""insignificant planets"" (or in the latter case at least, was specifically meant to seem that way). This point is pretty moot anyhow considering the IoM is and has always been established to have serious issues with coherency and logistics, etc. etc.

Yeah not going to really argue this point. I may as well note that we have strayed pretty far from the original thread topic fwiw.

[NecronLord]

For Star Wars I dislike the claim that this is tropey. Let's look at the planets visited in the latest seasons of Bad Batch, Andor and Mandalorian.

Warning, spoilers: Spoiler

1. Serenno, no planetary defences shown when it would be rational for them to be used; in fairness these might have been suppressed in the war.
2. Desix, Seperatist holdout, no anti-orbital weaponss shown, enemy able to get within kilometers of the city without damage. We would see anti-ship weapons if it had them firing a the end of the episode. #1.
3. Safa Toma, no evidence either way.
4. Kaldar Trinary, uninhabited system
5. Kashyyyk, there is actually a fleet here!
6. Coruscant, yeah, there are planetary defences here.
7. Kamino, in flashback, home of the Clone Army, no planetary defences in evidence or they would have been used to protect Tipoca city. #2
8. Ipsidon - no large scale government presence, factories appear wholly autonomous. Produces a valuable fuel supply. #3
9. Mount Tantiss/Weyland - No evidence either way.
10. Unnamed Planet - Attacked by Zillo Beast, no planetary defence forces appear. They'd rationally be used against the Zillo Beast, or the imperial ships that deport the population. #4
11. Barton 4 outpost - Materiel depot, garrisoned by single-digit number of clone troopers. #5
12. Pabu - Civilian planet, no planetary defences, dissident planet however so we won't count it.
13. Unnamed Planet - Clone arrest - a star destroyer arrives in short order so we'll count this.
14. Eriadu - Yeah there's a defence force here.
15. Ord Mantell - No sign of a standing defence but there might be one we've not seen

Five planets out of fifteen are demonstrably undefended. 1/3

Let's get another imperial-era production.

• Morlana - Planetary defences unknown. Has at least a few small strike ships but probably more.
• Ferrix - No defences. #1
• Aldhani - The important sectorial garrison that holds the sector's military payroll is defended by... a squadron of fighters. I'm counting this, a borg cube would sweep this garrison aside easily. #2
• Coruscant - There are defences here.
• Narkina 5 - Production of Death Star Components is carried out here, there is no air wing or planetary defences in evidence. They would rationally be used to suppress escaping prisoners but are not seen. #3
• Spellhaus - Not seen on screen, but we're going to give them this because it's a garrison we hear of being attacked.
• Segra Milo - Luthen is intercepted by an anti-piracy patrol, the Empire gets this one.

3/7 undefended.

Or planets visited thus far in Mando Season 3:

1. Mando Covert - No defences, weirdly they don't even seem to have a ship of their own. Possibly a non-combat rated one. #1
2. Navarro - No defences. It's a plot point. #2
3. Mandalore - Uninhabited so doesn't count, but although the Empire has flattened it, it holds an in valuable resource and no one has kept an eye on. Daft but we'll not call it a strike.
4. Coruscant Again - Presumably there's some.
5. Adelphi - Has a NR military base.

Two out of three undefended. So 1/3 again.

Out of 28 planets surveyed, 10 are unable to repel a borg cube, even assuming any turbolaser can one-shot it.

If we remove the three uninhabited planets (Mandalore, Kaldar Trinary and Pabu [which the Empire would believe is uninhabited] the ratio is then 25:10 inhabited vs undefended.

That's a lot of soft underbelly.

[Composeure]

Going through case by case nitpicks from Disney canon shows made for spectacle and trying to extrapolate that to an entire faction frankly doesn't look very well. There's quite a bit of difference from a book outright stating that ""33% of these worlds will lack ANY kind of planetary defense"" and ""according to a small sample size out of millions I hauled out from a few TV shows, one third of all worlds are undefended!!"" Frankly, if we chose to apply this method of analysis to either W40K or ST I suspect we would come up with even worse sounding figures.

In any case this whole thread of argument has gotten quite far off topic.

[NecronLord]

Going through case by case nitpicks from Disney canon shows made for spectacle and trying to extrapolate that to an entire faction frankly doesn't look very well. There's quite a bit of difference from a book outright stating that ""33% of these worlds will lack ANY kind of planetary defense"" and ""according to a small sample size out of millions I hauled out from a few TV shows, one third of all worlds are undefended!!"" Frankly, if we chose to apply this method of analysis to either W40K or ST I suspect we would come up with even worse sounding figures.

This is a Debating Rule 5 issue, if your claim is that these are not typical worlds in the GFFA, prove it. I've shown my evidence. Now you can show yours if you want to stand on this notion that I'm cherrypicking (by covering every planet shown in three recent seasons! I've given a clear methodology there, it's about as impartial as you're going to get). Canon Star Wars only. Suitable evidence would be something saying all Imperial planets have defences against capital ships, or a survey of a larger number of planets showing that this is so. Either is fine.

As to Star Trek, yes, planets having no planetary defences to speak of is an issue there too, in fact sometimes that even extends to major planets (remember the 2000 troops in two ships to occupy Vulcan?) as well.

All three of these settings are ones where raiders make merry with undefended planets. That is rather my point.

[Composeure]

Tbh I have no real attachment or like for SW or ST especially in recent years, and I have never liked W40K (in fact I decidedly hate it).

Having said that, I still think the argument you use is rather dishonest.

""Disney Canon only"" who specified this? You realize by this interpretation the vast amount of factors that could be used in a debate don't even exist? Meaning I couldn't provide evidence if I wanted to since the shows show us a tiny slice of the side in question? But more on topic, I repeat, there is a notable difference between an established lore book stating a fact and arriving on a hasty generalization based on a miniscule sample size. I'm not arguing against the point as it refers to these settings specifically, I'm arguing against the validity of the evidence.

Again, this whole point has gotten wildly off topic.

[bilateralrope]

For Star Wars I dislike the claim that this is tropey. Let's look at the planets visited in the latest seasons of Bad Batch, Andor and Mandalorian.

I've got some nitpicks here, but I'll skip them as they don't change your conclusion.

Star Wars planets seem to rely heavily on being able to get help from out of system quickly enough to matter. That seems to be sufficient for the threats they are expecting, unless the forces they call for help refuse to respond. But would that response be quick enough to fight off a borg cube ?

[Composeure]

I think it would.

But frankly at this point I'm not really interested in continuing to argue a line of debate that has gotten incredibly off topic anyways. I hope I've made my views clear despite that.

[NecronLord]

Star Wars planets seem to rely heavily on being able to get help from out of system quickly enough to matter. That seems to be sufficient for the threats they are expecting, unless the forces they call for help refuse to respond. But would that response be quick enough to fight off a borg cube ?

Sometimes, but not always. The persistent success of the Rebels suggests that response time can't be so quick that raiding is a nonviable strategy. While the rebels use the same tech base, they can rarely answer an imperial warship.

[Adam Reynolds]

Out of 28 planets surveyed, 10 are unable to repel a borg cube, even assuming any turbolaser can one-shot it.

If we remove the three uninhabited planets (Mandalore, Kaldar Trinary and Pabu [which the Empire would believe is uninhabited] the ratio is then 25:10 inhabited vs undefended.

That's a lot of soft underbelly.

In a context in which it was so easy to strike at undefended worlds, why did the Empire need the Death Star? The only way the Death Star makes any sense as a concept is if it is used to threaten shielded worlds so that the Empire doesn't need a costly siege, as clearly happened at the end of the Clone Wars.

[Batman]

They needed it so they could not only strike at, but eliminate, EVEN THE WELL DEFENDED CORE WORLDS 'with ease'. We're talking about the Borg eating the NON (or not very well) defended worlds (of which there seem to be quite a lot in Wars.)

[NecronLord]

In a context in which it was so easy to strike at undefended worlds, why did the Empire need the Death Star? The only way the Death Star makes any sense as a concept is if it is used to threaten shielded worlds so that the Empire doesn't need a costly siege, as clearly happened at the end of the Clone Wars.

As Batman said, it's explicit inthe 1977 that it's to be used as a political weapon - something people often miss in saying it's a white elephant - against those worlds which are power centers and possess fleets.

But Palpatine's goal isn't the borg one. He wants to get particular systems to comply, while they want access to people and technology to improve themselves. Those can validly be different targets.

[Evilchumlee]

Primarily being a Star Trek fan I can say... the Federation is absolutely FUBARed here.

Just sheer numbers wise, the IoM could just spam the Federation, and the IoM won't think twice about scorched-Earth tactics and absolutely will see the Federation as heretics.

The ONLY chance the UFP has is the non-quantifiable "Treknobabble/Weaponized Science" Starfleet employs. It's impossible to debate, there's no numbers to distill. There's possibilities to ponder.

Could Starfleet introduce a computer virus into the IoM's fleet and disable it remotely? It's possible. Could they weaponize the 40k Warp to like, instantly Chaos corrupt any ship entering it? Maybe? Could they use some kind of jamming to render their targeting systems useless? Possibly?

The only path to survival is the fact that the IoM really has no idea how the hell its technology actually works... and Starfleet Engineers being god-tier.

They won't win a firefight. Not even close. Starfleet will have to attack the IoM's technology... and that's in the "possible" category.