Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by Crazedwraith »

Alferd Packer wrote: 2023-04-07 11:22am Well, we got here. The whole gang is together, and it's honestly great. The how we got here is, if we're being charitable, uninspiring, but I'm hoping we're going to get two episodes of the TNG crew doing TNG things.

Also, did I see right that Worf was wearing a captain's jacket under his baldric? I could swear there were 4 pips, but maybe I was mistaken.
I saw 4 as well but he's wearing gold again now. Apparently according to comics of dubious canonicity he was captain of the E-E following Picard.

---

As to the episode I found most of it intensely unpleasant and unentainingly so. e.g. The redshirts being slaughtered and Vadic executing T'Leen. Ugh.

The Data / Lore showdown was pretty good but the concept was much better done in regards to Durkon on the Order Of The Stick tbh.

The final scenes of the whole crew reunited are as charming as they should be but also a little long winded with their testimonials of each other. I was very happy with the Data & La Forge friendship scene.

It feel like stuff happened but the meta-plot feels like it's advancing glacially slowly and with only two episodes to go that's a big problem.

--

On just a trivial note: Bajoran Lt. Matthew Mura going by human naming conventions? Or maybe he's only half bajoran?
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2023-04-03 09:09am IIRC NCC numbers are a mess and only very roughly sequential. I suspect there weren't 200 odd connies for example.

---

Given the series propensity for legacy characters turning up it would nice to see a Ds9-only character turn up. Maybe a Weyoun could turn up to repatriate the founders?

I hope we'll also see real Tuvok appear at some point.
It needs to be Garak, and he should bring with him knowledge of the quantum stasis field that they modify to encompass a ship at the very least :mrgreen:

If not him, then Martok. As someone who himself was replaced by a changeling while he was a prisoner of the Dominion he'd be going after the founders for personal reasons.

Data finally defeating Lore and gaining control means that he got what he always wanted, to be human. I'm surprised they didn't mention that when he was talking with Geordi.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by Formless »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2023-04-07 12:38pmOn just a trivial note: Bajoran Lt. Matthew Mura going by human naming conventions? Or maybe he's only half bajoran?
Maybe his parents just liked the name Matthew? On Lower Decks, Mariner ends up dating an Andorian named Jennifer, although her surname is clearly Andorian. Of course, Andorians have been in constant contact with humanity for centuries, so its less surprising that human names would be mildly popular with the foundational members of the Federation (except Vulcans because of their low-key superiority complex); but that doesn't rule out other species like Bajorans using human names as well.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by Crazedwraith »

Formless wrote: 2023-04-09 04:01pm
Crazedwraith wrote: 2023-04-07 12:38pmOn just a trivial note: Bajoran Lt. Matthew Mura going by human naming conventions? Or maybe he's only half bajoran?
Maybe his parents just liked the name Matthew? On Lower Decks, Mariner ends up dating an Andorian named Jennifer, although her surname is clearly Andorian. Of course, Andorians have been in constant contact with humanity for centuries, so its less surprising that human names would be mildly popular with the foundational members of the Federation (except Vulcans because of their low-key superiority complex); but that doesn't rule out other species like Bajorans using human names as well.
I'm loathe to take anything wacky from Lower Decks as canon. (Like all the wacky future first names that only seem to occur in it) but apparently it's supposed to be.

But even then it would be Mura Matthew under Bajoran naming conventions.

Half bajoran or some kind of bajoran adopted by humans would be my best bets.

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2023-04-09 03:20pm

It needs to be Garak, and he should bring with him knowledge of the quantum stasis field that they modify to encompass a ship at the very least :mrgreen:

If not him, then Martok. As someone who himself was replaced by a changeling while he was a prisoner of the Dominion he'd be going after the founders for personal reasons.
Sadly with two episodes left I don't think we have time to introduce anyone that would be a real game changer. Minor cameos would be about the most we can expect.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Ok, so I didn't really bother watching season 1. Watched season 3 first, but went into season 2 since Q was at least something I should watch for.

It's frankly bland how small the universe is. 21st Century and it turns out a Renee Picard is a gigantic pivot point on whether Earth becomes a socialist utopia or a fascist empire. An Adam Soong becomes a major antagonist and the reason for Khan coming about in the future? Oh wow, the fans will absolutely cream themselves with those facts! The entire Soong line family are scientists obsessed with either genetic or robotic engineering! I swear if the character of Zefram Cochrane was created today, they'd make him Kirk's great grandfather.

And in the future, a certain Jack Crusher becomes the centerpiece that will decide the fate of the universe in the second Dominion war. Whooa, holy cow man!

I'm not going to necessarily blame fanboyism, but it's certainly very lazy ideas from the current writers in Hollywood.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by Formless »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2023-04-09 05:51pmBut even then it would be Mura Matthew under Bajoran naming conventions.

Half bajoran or some kind of bajoran adopted by humans would be my best bets.
Why should there be only one Bajoran naming convention? On Earth, your personal name could come first as in western countries, or the surname can come first as in Japan, or in some time periods not everyone even had surnames (again, Japan less than 200 years ago). I personally think that one of the most annoying aspects of Star Trek lore is the flattening of alien cultures into one culture per-planet, while humanity is allowed all of the hundreds that exist here because they actually exist in real life. It makes those aliens even more unbelievable than their barely concealed human anatomy makes them already.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by bilateralrope »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2023-04-07 12:38pm The Data / Lore showdown was pretty good but the concept was much better done in regards to Durkon on the Order Of The Stick tbh.
I haven't read Order of the Stick, but I can see how I'd have improved it with two changes:
- No last minute flash to Data winning on the display. It's a clear Lore win.
- Instead of Data explaining what happened to Lore, we have Lore/Data explain it to everyone else.
On just a trivial note: Bajoran Lt. Matthew Mura going by human naming conventions? Or maybe he's only half bajoran?
With the Federation likely having a noticeable presence on parts of Bajor since the occupation or as part of the Marquis, and Sisko being a major religious figure, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some cultural crossover. Maybe Sisko said that he liked the name Matthew and someone overheard, maybe a Matthew was a big help to that family.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by Crazedwraith »

bilateralrope wrote: 2023-04-09 11:38pm
Crazedwraith wrote: 2023-04-07 12:38pm The Data / Lore showdown was pretty good but the concept was much better done in regards to Durkon on the Order Of The Stick tbh.
I haven't read Order of the Stick, but I can see how I'd have improved it with two changes:
- No last minute flash to Data winning on the display. It's a clear Lore win.
- Instead of Data explaining what happened to Lore, we have Lore/Data explain it to everyone else.
That would be good.

If they had more time and weren't so obsessed with a TNG reunion, it would really be interesting to legitimately have it be Lore who survives but still integrates Data's emotional attachments to the crew. So you end up with a softer Lore who's on their side, instead of a Data with a Lore like edge.

On just a trivial note: Bajoran Lt. Matthew Mura going by human naming conventions? Or maybe he's only half bajoran?
With the Federation likely having a noticeable presence on parts of Bajor since the occupation or as part of the Marquis, and Sisko being a major religious figure, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some cultural crossover. Maybe Sisko said that he liked the name Matthew and someone overheard, maybe a Matthew was a big help to that family.
As I mentioned to the others, it was as much the naming order than the name Matthew itself. Though in addition to the other possible reasons we've discussed I remember that way back when in "Ensign Ro", Ro said a lot of Bajoran refugees did flip their name order to assimilate in to the Federation, so maybe Mura's family did.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by bilateralrope »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2023-04-11 06:26am
That would be good.

If they had more time and weren't so obsessed with a TNG reunion, it would really be interesting to legitimately have it be Lore who survives but still integrates Data's emotional attachments to the crew. So you end up with a softer Lore who's on their side, instead of a Data with a Lore like edge.
Or maybe have Lore/Data have to go to Troi to work through what happened and figure out who he is. Show her doing some work as a counsellor.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

bilateralrope wrote: 2023-04-11 07:20am
Crazedwraith wrote: 2023-04-11 06:26am
That would be good.

If they had more time and weren't so obsessed with a TNG reunion, it would really be interesting to legitimately have it be Lore who survives but still integrates Data's emotional attachments to the crew. So you end up with a softer Lore who's on their side, instead of a Data with a Lore like edge.
Or maybe have Lore/Data have to go to Troi to work through what happened and figure out who he is. Show her doing some work as a counsellor.
So, like what she's doing with Jack then?
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by Crazedwraith »

episode 9 spoilers
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Fuck this show, I'm annoyed that this schmutzy callback malarky is actually effective and makes me sort of like it despite myself. I'm nt heartless the old themes and seeing the Enterprise - D again worked. It's fun. But there's just so many little annoyances and nagging things.

Like they mention Geordi's and Picard/Beverly's kids are like their family. Well fuck Alexander and Wesley I guess?

They bring Shelby back for the dead despite heavily implying all season that Admiral Janeway was the head honcho at starfleet.

They have huge long discussions about the Borg without Seven of Nine, the actual literal Borg present. They've gathered the whole main cast of TNG and of course... there isn't enough for them all so they all trade saying one line of exposition and one joke apiece for the episode.

I called from the beginning the Shaw was dying and leaving the ship to Seven but fat load of good it will do her with one episode left.

And absolutely no mention or acknowledgement that they saw the Borg, just last season. Okay establish Jurati's collective is actually a splinter group and there's another collective out there but do that in this episode. Not a vague remark from Shaw at the start of the season and then don't mention it when the actual borg are back.

Pretty much everything was pretty well foreshadowed before now. But it still seems to have gone from proceeding glacially slowly to everything happening in this episode. I assumed when they were going to the museum that they were going to crew everything because one ship with just a bridge crew isn't going to cut it against all of assimilated Starfleet.

I assume they are going to technobabble their way out of it next week but hopefully it will be smoothly handled.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by Formless »

Yeah, this does feel rushed. Its funny, because some of the best paced shows I've ever seen are 12 episode anime with shorter episode runtimes. But I guess in a way scene length doesn't necessarily effect pacing the way you expect it to; the narrative still follows an episode by episode story beat, and I guess those two extra episodes that are standard in Japanese shows really is enough to lengthen the climax and allow for at least one episode of denouement. Whereas the ten episode format they've chosen for Picard has consistently caused the finales of each season to pack a little too much action into its last episodes with just a bit too little lead up time. Maybe if the last episode uses the streaming service format to expand the episode to the length it needs to be, then it won't be such a problem, and given its the series finale they might just do that. But I hope that they learn from this and start either cutting down on the early episode filler, or start giving trek series that extra couple episodes towards the end that they seem to need to feel like they are not rushing things at the end.


That said, it is interesting to finally see the show address Picard's weird ability to hear the Collective during First Contact. The idea that the Borg have a biological telepathy as a backup to their technological telepathy is an interesting idea that hints at how the collective might have first come about. A telepathic species with no understanding of how non-telepaths get along mirrors the contempt the Changlings have for solids because of the Great Link. But there is a difference-- a Changling can at least experience individuality for a time whenever they leave the link, while the Borg can never really do so. So the perception that others have an inferior existence to the Borg can not easily be shaken by them. At least, we can theorize.

I do like that in hindsight, Jack has always seemed to mind control people we later see have had their biology assimilated by the Borg's biotech. It suggests to me this isn't some random superpower like Wesley had, despite all the joking people have done over Beverly having two psychic children, but genuinely a Borg thing.

And I think basically everyone called it with the reveal of the Enterprise D. It is quite disappointing, though, that once again they leave Seven aside because she isn't a TNG alum, but a Voyager cast member. After all, you would think they would need more hands to run a ship like the Enterprise. Or they could take Voyager as well while they are at it. Presumably the Museum has enough personnel aboard to crew a bunch of the relic ships, so why not take the Enterprise, Voyager, and Defiant into battle?

Because Nostalgia, obviously. :wanker:
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

All I can say is that they spent the last three seasons building up to it but they did it by adding the last piece with the Enterprise-D. LaForge mentioned they "obviously" couldn't take the Enterprise-E, something that Worf said "was not [his] fault", alluding to an incident rendering the ship unusable, presumably either through destruction or some other means.

So they used the Prime Directive to handwave Picard's line in Generations about how the Enterprise itself (what's left of it) couldn't be salvaged and had Geordi spend twenty years fixing the ship up with parts from other Galaxy-class ships.

So last season we had a splinter faction of the Borg, this time it's one of the Dominion, and now they're in cahoots? A lot of shit to work through in the finale I think.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by Batman »

The Borg? Again? And aren't they supposed to be benign by now thanks to the s2 finale?

The-E-E may be unuseable thanks to NOT being a half vaporized wreck (unlike the E-D) it was repaired and upgraded with Starfleets new hivemind program.
Do I really have to point out haw immeasurably stupid it would be for ALL of Starfleet to be in one place at the same time? Or have they established sector or quadrant or system defense forces without telling us? Since SO FAR, Starfleet was the Federations ONLY line of defense.
OH, and Admiral Shelby-it was ALREADY called Starfleet in Archer's time-what had yet to emerge was the Federation.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by Batman »

Not sure how they're going to resolve all this with a single remaining episode,
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

It was inevitable that it would be the Enterprise-F that was going to emerge from Spacedock, even though every STO player was already very familiar with the Odyssey class that was designed 11 years beforehand, the Memory Alpha article explains it best:

Odyssey class

I'm glad the show didn't try to get clever and use a completely different design that would shit all over Star Trek Online.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by Crazedwraith »

I remember the STO contest from this forum. One of members entered and put a shit tonne of work in, got the most votes in the online poll... and was utterly ignored by the judges.

And the one they picked was evidently fugly. Which fits with the other modern designs.

Still that contest winner must be happy to see it all canon and official.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2023-04-14 07:46pm I remember the STO contest from this forum. One of members entered and put a shit tonne of work in, got the most votes in the online poll... and was utterly ignored by the judges.

And the one they picked was evidently fugly. Which fits with the other modern designs.

Still that contest winner must be happy to see it all canon and official.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by Crazedwraith »

Batman wrote: 2023-04-14 07:05pm The Borg? Again? And aren't they supposed to be benign by now thanks to the s2 finale?
The closest we've got to an explanation is in episode... 4 or something when Shaw tells his Wolf 395 story he says the borg are still out there and still dangerous and he's not talking about that weird thing that happened on Stargazer.

Which I don't really considered a full explanation but basically Jurati started a splinter group and didn't take control of the main collective, I think is the idea.

Why they won't explicitly devote a line or two to actually saying that and referencing Jurati and the previous season of the show, I do not know.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by Solauren »

This would be the fourth splinter group of the Borg we know of.

First - Hugh's Borg (appears they were the first ex-Borg, and may not be Borg anymore)
Second - The Co-operative (the disabled cube that was re-activated by Voyager)
Third - The Dreamers (that weird ass mutation/dreamscape one. Unknown how their rebellion/civil war went)
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by AniThyng »

I kinda find it incredibly depressing that Starfleet gets decimated every couple decades in such unfair ways.

I mean at least Worf 350 and the battles of the dominion war and the klingon wars in Disc's season 1 era were stand up fleet battles.

Whatever happened in Prodigy with the living construct? Getting infiltrated by changelings and assimilated from inside while also using the most incredibly absurd fleet networking protocols? Having a freak subspace anomaly caused by a scared child on a magic dilithium planet decimate any ship with an active warp drive?

I dunno that just feels incredibly depressing.

Thank goodness Lower Decks wipes that terrible taste from my mouth. Unless I think about how many of those side characters would still be around in the Picard era and might just end up all being killed anyway when their own lower decks turn on them due to Borg technosocery.

Edit: I mean, I also know this kind of thing happens to individual ships all the time - USS Yamato, that ship in TOS that got blown up by the rogue M5 unit...the list goes on. And Lower Decks did have its moments, and if unchecked the AI ships would have taken down a Sovereign class...But to see it happen to entire fleets en masse...sigh.

Edit 2: La Forge calling the Ent-D "analog" is almost certainly a wink wink joke that the whole thing was basically Battlestar Galactica, right?
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

It's Wolf 359, for fuck's sake :banghead:

Strictly speaking the only "analog" surviving Enterprise that would still be in working order is the Enterprise-B, since the Excelsior-class has been around in service for a hundred years, but it had to be the D for nostalgia's sake :mrgreen: At least, the original saucer, apparently the stardrive section used to belong to the Syracuse.

Exactly how long the original bridge crew are supposed to operate a starship which had an original complement of over a thousand is yet to be revealed, unless Geordi did what Scotty did with the original and configured it to be automated.

Worf complained about the relative lack of weapons compared to the E (10 phasers compared to 12, increased to 16 when refitted), speaking of which it was surprising that the Titan (or any ship built within the last 30 years) would still be using photons when they've been superseded by quantum torpedoes decades ago.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by Formless »

I think photon torpedoes are supposed to be longer range than quantum torpedoes? If anything should have obsoleted them, it should have been the multi-warhead torpedoes used by the Texas Class. Those things absolutely wrecked a Sovereign class and only a couple barrages was enough to have Captain Freeman ordering an abandon ship as well. And they save on so much space!


edit: in Star Trek Prodigy, Janeway's flagship has micro-torpedoes that can fire from literally lightyears away, meaning they must have warp capability. She's under orders to stay on the Federation's side of the Romulan Neutral Zone, but also orders to destroy the Protostar if it looks like the Romulans are going to capture it, so at one point she uses this capability. Luckily for the Protostar's crew, these torpedoes also have an abort function.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by AniThyng »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2023-04-15 09:16pm It's Wolf 359, for fuck's sake :banghead:
Mea culpa but you knew what I meant.

That said it would have been cool if Janeway and the DS9 crew showed up to help but yeah yeah it's the TNG show no others allowed.
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Re: Picard - general discussion [spoilers]

Post by Lord Revan »

Formless wrote: 2023-04-16 12:06am I think photon torpedoes are supposed to be longer range than quantum torpedoes? If anything should have obsoleted them, it should have been the multi-warhead torpedoes used by the Texas Class. Those things absolutely wrecked a Sovereign class and only a couple barrages was enough to have Captain Freeman ordering an abandon ship as well. And they save on so much space!


edit: in Star Trek Prodigy, Janeway's flagship has micro-torpedoes that can fire from literally lightyears away, meaning they must have warp capability. She's under orders to stay on the Federation's side of the Romulan Neutral Zone, but also orders to destroy the Protostar if it looks like the Romulans are going to capture it, so at one point she uses this capability. Luckily for the Protostar's crew, these torpedoes also have an abort function.
Could be a case manufacturing costs too, the resources of the UFP are finite after all, only the for the common citizen's needs they're essentially infinite. So it could be a case that quantums are better on paper but "costs" the same as 10 photons per shot, so most ships still use photons for the sake of saving on resources. That's probably why the Microtorp on the Dauntless or the Multitorp of the Texas seem 1 off cases because they're still new enough to not be viable for fleet wide adaption.

After all having a tech and that tech being affordable for fleet wide use aren't the same thing.
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