Only you, Tharkun, could think it's intentional. It is, from all appearances, a DIRECT result of Imperial particle shielding, which closes off all access to subspace.
Dumbass, did I *ever* say it was intentional? No. I said it was stupid design. I frankly don't give a rat's ass what from of communication ISD sheilding prevent it doesn't block visible light. So you take a your communication, digitize it, send it out on a laser pulse, have the probe take the optic signal convert the signal to a subspace one, send it to a probe next to Vader's SSD, that probe converts from subspace to optical, the optical signal is then pulsed through the sheilds into Vader's SSD which then presents him with a holo.
This is NOT a particularly advanced concept. You have some barrier to one form of communication, so you use a different form of communication to cross the barrier and change the signal back. We use it today in real military hardware (we can use laser pulses to transfer information even through excess radio jamming, then once outside of the jamming put the information on a radio and send it on from there).
I mean seriously if it's so damn vital to keep up constant communications you'd think compotent egineers would have figured out this barbarically simple way to do it without dropping the sheild.
Besides which you ignored the other criticisms of this moronic idea:
1. SW sheilds can open small holes. If you can't transmit through the sheilds you open a small hole over some communications array ... something too small for a large asteroid to break through.
2. If Vader is so nuts he'd rather have constant communications than let a ship break communications and raise their sheilds ... why are they shooting the asteroids? They are risking killing the MF with every shot, especially if Han does something desperate. If Vader doesn't care about casualties ... they would not risk shooting the MF.
"Again, it is good for keeping them awake. And the intricacies of shields might mean the energy draw of vaping it is less than letting the asteroid hit. "
Lol whatever. Shooting highly predictable targets does not keep you awake. Why would it take appreciably less energy to vape them with the TL's than with the sheilds (you do realize that the sheilds vape asteroids too, right?). Just how inefficient do you think their sheilds are?
"They can track dumb asteroids, but there IS room for human error in a field with millions of asteroids. They need to maintain constant contact with Vader, too. They just missed one until it came too close. "
Of course there is room for human error, which means you do NOT shoot the TL's when there is a chance they can vape the possibly unsheilded MF. Further they are not in constant contact with Vader ... because we do see sheilded ships who are also shooting the asteroids.
"If they can open a gap over the comms array, that is. That depends on the location of shield projectors. No one really expects lots of long-range comm messages in a combat situation. "
Just how STUPID do you think Imp egineer's are? If transmitting requires an opening the sheild so you can have full communications in battle there will *be* a way to open that hole. Hell you can move the transmitter next to the TIE hangar if needed ... we know they can open a respectably small hole there. Unless this going to devolve into technobabble ... there is no damn reason the Imps can open a small hole over the communications array.
Communications are *vital* in combat. Only a rank moron would have any limits on communications for a capital ship that are easily worked around.
And why would they put necessarily put a holocomm suite with a small ship? Most smaller ships use subspace radios, max.
Do it by *design*, I'm sure the Imps have some form of communication's relay (in case of jamming), if they don't they are stupid. This is a *really* simple way to get full communications through a sheilded ISD.
Look there are a *half-dozen* REALLY easy ways to work around your teknobabble cop-out. If the Imps aren't using them ... they are RETARDED.
Besides which even if we GRANT the whole no-sheilds to transmit crap .... that implies Vader doesn't give a *DAMN* about his men dying (otherwise he'd use a form of communication that doesn't need the sheilds lowered). If he doesn't care ... they they would not be vaping asteroids which is a risk to the MF.
"Vader needs to try and disable the Falcon too, so he can capture it properly.
It is not hard to scan for a little armor with sensors and shields up would show as a signal, too."
Of course he needs to disable it, but you don't do that with ISD TL's. Do you disable a PT boat with a few shots from the main guns off a Battelship? No, you use smaller guns and smaller ships. If the USN is trying to disable a small ship they will *NOT* fire the big guns anywhere near the ship ... too much risk of killing the objective.
As far as scanning goes ... it must be hard ... or there would be no need to move the *entire* task force into the asteroid feild (including the command ship). Even with multiple ISD's, support craft, and a SSD ... the Imps can't find Han. Inside a perfectly normal asteroid (no exotic particles).
One ISD in ST galaxy (serious)
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Patrick Ogaard
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Here comes a question relevant to this thread:
What would the effects of a 300 gigaton turbolaser flak burst be if one assumes them to be equivalent to a scaled-up thermonuclear airburst explosion?
Similarly, what would be the effects of a 300 gigaton turbolaser bolt slamming into the ground if one assumes them to be equivalent to an asteroid impact?
Given that information, then, how much damage could a dozen 300 gigaton turbolaser shots do to a planet like Earth? Ideally, I would expect the turbolaser shots to be split about 50/50 between air bursts and ground strikes.
The ground/ocean strikes would be centered on major urban centers likely to contain deep, hardened shelters (like San Francisco and Paris), with one shot each centered in the Atlantic, one in the Indian Ocean, and one in the Pacific (near the coastline of Asia). The cities at the heart of the Federation would disappear utterly, to the accompaniment of massive earthquakes, shock waves and ejecta. I also suspect that all coastal areas would experience massive tsunami effects, sufficient to wipe out the overwhelming majority of coastal populations (and thus effectively the majority of the world population).
The flak bursts would, I suspect, lead to flash sterilization of any surfaces visible from the altitude of the flak burst, ash and slag from horizon to horizon, though not necessarily to any great depth. Would a flak burst centered above the Great Plains region of North America make everything form the Rockies to the Appalachians and Alaska to Mexico burst into flames? Would a flak burst centered above the Amazon basin do something similar to South America easterly of the Andes? Would a flak burst centered above Central Africa just wipe Africa clean of life? Would a flak burst centered above the steppes of Asia do unpleasant things?
As for the light guns, how about just one volley from them? At 60% more light guns than an Acclamator, our theoretical ISD would have 38 light guns with 6 megatons maximum yield each. That should mean 38 individual sites destroyed: isolated cities, hydroelectric dams, fusion or M/A-M powerplants, research or communications facilities, etc.
What happens if the ISD uses a decapitation approach? Initially, the ISD carefully scouts out the opposition by waylaying a few luckless supply ships and perhaps a Starfleet cruiser or two, and wipes out some outlying colonies. All this is in an effort to acquire as much information as possible on the lay of the land, including population distributions and military deployment.
Once the ISD commander has enough information, the decapitation campaign begins.
The first step is a hyperspace jump to the farthest end of the Federation, no more than 10,000 light years away even by the most optimistic of measures of the extent of UFP territories. A string of border colonies is burned away. Given the compact, centralized nature of typical Federation colonies, most should fall to nothing more than a single shot from one of the big guns, or even just one volley from the point defense guns. This action will distract the defenders by producing the appearance of a hostile force intruding into Federation space. The total hyperdrive energy expenditure should not exceed 10,000 light years by any significant amount.
The second step is the following: a jump is made into a known contested area, such as the Neutral Zone, and another string of colonies burns. That further serves to split Federation forces, especially as their communications speed means months of communications lag from one end of Federation space to the other (at least according to the Star Trek Encyclopedia). At most, that should burn another 10,000 light years of operational range, leaving about 380,000 ly to burn.
With Starfleet scurrying madly to deal with supposed assaults on its borders, the ISD then scoops up dense nickel-iron asteroids roughly the size of corvettes and launches these at various colonies. Two birds can be killed with one stone if the asteroids are taken from other UFP systems and TIE attacks on the in-system colonies are coordinated with the asteroid recoveries. In all likelihood, Starfleet would not immediately make the connection between the swarms of horrendously over-armed, high speed shuttlepods suddenly appearing in out-of-the-way systems and erasing colonies, and the wedge-shaped behemoth that does the same but thousands of light years away.
Starfleet will be further occupied trying to rescue dozens of colonies (and likely unaffiliated non-UFP neighbors) threatened by asteroid impacts.
This gives the ISD commander two options: intercept and destroy asteroid rescue forces sent by Starfleet, and directly attack the 150+ UFP member worlds.
The simplest thing would be for the commander to jump directly to Sector 001. One full volley effectively destroys the population base of the Federation capital world. Another volley or two is used to wipe the moon and Mars clean of life, with all orbital facilities destroyed and, where possible, de-orbited by tractor beams. If the commander is feeling particularly vindictive, he will send fighters and bombers to destroy other in-system assets. Then he will grab a few dozen asteroids and small comets to fling them at Earth and Mars at various velocities to subject the planets to months of further pounding just to further complicate things.
Then, following a randomized pattern to counteract attempted massing of defending fleets, the commander jumps from member world to member world and applies the same tactic. Andor, Vulcan, the Tellarite homeworld, Bolius, Beta Zed, Alpha Centauri and a dozen others could go the way of Earth in as little as a day. Side trips to eliminate associated colonies and Starbases could stretch that to three or four days. Conservatively, I would say that all Federation member worlds should be destroyed in a month at the most. This includes delays caused by having to eliminate Starfleet ships and armed starbases.
The ISD would be unlikely to exhaust its jump capability during the campaign, likely still retaining a reserve of 100,000 to 200,000 light years. Similarly, the ISD would be unlikely to run out of munitions in such a relatively short campaign, as the campaign itself would not amount to more than one or two full BDZ operations or one extended battle against a warship from the ISD's home galaxy.
The basic problem of Starfleet defenders is that their warp drive capabilities compare so unfavorably with hyperdrive that the ISD can jump from one end of the Federation to the other in the course of no more than a few days, possibly even hours, while the Starfleet forces would need, at minimum, many months at high warp to get from one end of the Federation to the far end. That means that, at best, Starfleet would be able to gather its forces for one or two last stand actions while the Federation burns.
The basic problem of the ISD commander is that reducing the UFP to a flaming mass of wreckage and corpses would hardly be satisfying.
Essentially, the forces compare the way Lord Nelson's fleet at Trafalgar would compare to a modern missile cruiser (though one with a nuclear powerplant). If the sailing ships could somehow entice the cruiser into the range of their heavy smashers and regular cannon, the massed fire of the fleet's first-raters might severely damage or even destroy the cruiser. Actually getting that cruiser to stand still and not tear the first-raters to driftwood, though, that would be the trick.
What would the effects of a 300 gigaton turbolaser flak burst be if one assumes them to be equivalent to a scaled-up thermonuclear airburst explosion?
Similarly, what would be the effects of a 300 gigaton turbolaser bolt slamming into the ground if one assumes them to be equivalent to an asteroid impact?
Given that information, then, how much damage could a dozen 300 gigaton turbolaser shots do to a planet like Earth? Ideally, I would expect the turbolaser shots to be split about 50/50 between air bursts and ground strikes.
The ground/ocean strikes would be centered on major urban centers likely to contain deep, hardened shelters (like San Francisco and Paris), with one shot each centered in the Atlantic, one in the Indian Ocean, and one in the Pacific (near the coastline of Asia). The cities at the heart of the Federation would disappear utterly, to the accompaniment of massive earthquakes, shock waves and ejecta. I also suspect that all coastal areas would experience massive tsunami effects, sufficient to wipe out the overwhelming majority of coastal populations (and thus effectively the majority of the world population).
The flak bursts would, I suspect, lead to flash sterilization of any surfaces visible from the altitude of the flak burst, ash and slag from horizon to horizon, though not necessarily to any great depth. Would a flak burst centered above the Great Plains region of North America make everything form the Rockies to the Appalachians and Alaska to Mexico burst into flames? Would a flak burst centered above the Amazon basin do something similar to South America easterly of the Andes? Would a flak burst centered above Central Africa just wipe Africa clean of life? Would a flak burst centered above the steppes of Asia do unpleasant things?
As for the light guns, how about just one volley from them? At 60% more light guns than an Acclamator, our theoretical ISD would have 38 light guns with 6 megatons maximum yield each. That should mean 38 individual sites destroyed: isolated cities, hydroelectric dams, fusion or M/A-M powerplants, research or communications facilities, etc.
What happens if the ISD uses a decapitation approach? Initially, the ISD carefully scouts out the opposition by waylaying a few luckless supply ships and perhaps a Starfleet cruiser or two, and wipes out some outlying colonies. All this is in an effort to acquire as much information as possible on the lay of the land, including population distributions and military deployment.
Once the ISD commander has enough information, the decapitation campaign begins.
The first step is a hyperspace jump to the farthest end of the Federation, no more than 10,000 light years away even by the most optimistic of measures of the extent of UFP territories. A string of border colonies is burned away. Given the compact, centralized nature of typical Federation colonies, most should fall to nothing more than a single shot from one of the big guns, or even just one volley from the point defense guns. This action will distract the defenders by producing the appearance of a hostile force intruding into Federation space. The total hyperdrive energy expenditure should not exceed 10,000 light years by any significant amount.
The second step is the following: a jump is made into a known contested area, such as the Neutral Zone, and another string of colonies burns. That further serves to split Federation forces, especially as their communications speed means months of communications lag from one end of Federation space to the other (at least according to the Star Trek Encyclopedia). At most, that should burn another 10,000 light years of operational range, leaving about 380,000 ly to burn.
With Starfleet scurrying madly to deal with supposed assaults on its borders, the ISD then scoops up dense nickel-iron asteroids roughly the size of corvettes and launches these at various colonies. Two birds can be killed with one stone if the asteroids are taken from other UFP systems and TIE attacks on the in-system colonies are coordinated with the asteroid recoveries. In all likelihood, Starfleet would not immediately make the connection between the swarms of horrendously over-armed, high speed shuttlepods suddenly appearing in out-of-the-way systems and erasing colonies, and the wedge-shaped behemoth that does the same but thousands of light years away.
Starfleet will be further occupied trying to rescue dozens of colonies (and likely unaffiliated non-UFP neighbors) threatened by asteroid impacts.
This gives the ISD commander two options: intercept and destroy asteroid rescue forces sent by Starfleet, and directly attack the 150+ UFP member worlds.
The simplest thing would be for the commander to jump directly to Sector 001. One full volley effectively destroys the population base of the Federation capital world. Another volley or two is used to wipe the moon and Mars clean of life, with all orbital facilities destroyed and, where possible, de-orbited by tractor beams. If the commander is feeling particularly vindictive, he will send fighters and bombers to destroy other in-system assets. Then he will grab a few dozen asteroids and small comets to fling them at Earth and Mars at various velocities to subject the planets to months of further pounding just to further complicate things.
Then, following a randomized pattern to counteract attempted massing of defending fleets, the commander jumps from member world to member world and applies the same tactic. Andor, Vulcan, the Tellarite homeworld, Bolius, Beta Zed, Alpha Centauri and a dozen others could go the way of Earth in as little as a day. Side trips to eliminate associated colonies and Starbases could stretch that to three or four days. Conservatively, I would say that all Federation member worlds should be destroyed in a month at the most. This includes delays caused by having to eliminate Starfleet ships and armed starbases.
The ISD would be unlikely to exhaust its jump capability during the campaign, likely still retaining a reserve of 100,000 to 200,000 light years. Similarly, the ISD would be unlikely to run out of munitions in such a relatively short campaign, as the campaign itself would not amount to more than one or two full BDZ operations or one extended battle against a warship from the ISD's home galaxy.
The basic problem of Starfleet defenders is that their warp drive capabilities compare so unfavorably with hyperdrive that the ISD can jump from one end of the Federation to the other in the course of no more than a few days, possibly even hours, while the Starfleet forces would need, at minimum, many months at high warp to get from one end of the Federation to the far end. That means that, at best, Starfleet would be able to gather its forces for one or two last stand actions while the Federation burns.
The basic problem of the ISD commander is that reducing the UFP to a flaming mass of wreckage and corpses would hardly be satisfying.
Essentially, the forces compare the way Lord Nelson's fleet at Trafalgar would compare to a modern missile cruiser (though one with a nuclear powerplant). If the sailing ships could somehow entice the cruiser into the range of their heavy smashers and regular cannon, the massed fire of the fleet's first-raters might severely damage or even destroy the cruiser. Actually getting that cruiser to stand still and not tear the first-raters to driftwood, though, that would be the trick.
To drive Han out of hidingtharkûn wrote: Several problems here:
1. A *sheilded* ship is firing. I'll double check it tommorrow, but I beleive the very ship Mike uses to establish his sheild calcs is *firing* at incoming rocks. If the sheilds can handle it *and are up* why bother shooting it.
See above2. These are frikking asteroids we are talking about. With a good computer and optics they should be able to predict the path of *EVERY* asteroid in the feild. They should be able to *TIME* their messages so they are transmitting when a big hunk of rock is not hurtling towards them. You have gunners capable of hitting highly maneuvarable fighters from the *SIDE*, you are telling me they don't have the means to track dumb asteroids?
THEY DID! Look at an ISD. The communications stuff is on the bridge tower. They dropped the bridge shields. And we have ZERO indication as to how small a hole they can make it.3. We know SW sheilds can be opened at point locations, so open a very small gap over the communications array. If its a shortwavelength ... make it less than 1m across and you should be good to go, unless there is some treknobabble characteristic to holocoms.
Vader just called you and said get on the line now. Are ou going to tell the Emperor's right hand man, a guy who kills people for little screw ups, to hold on a minute?4. Its DAMN STUPID DESIGN. Let's say for some unknown reason I need to use a holocom and I'm in a place where I need the sheilds up. I send a small ship/probe with a holocom a few hundred m from the ISD. I use a simple ordinary laser to pulse the message over, the cheapass expendable
ship/probe lowers *its* sheilds and transmits from there. Instant holocom connection with no risk to the ISD and uses 20th century tech to make the relay.
They are blowing the asteroids up to try and drive Han out of hiding. Or maybe you missed the bit where Bombers were dropping thermal detanators on the asteroids?5. If Vader doesn't care about the crew (or apparently the hardware) why are they shooting? Vader wants the MF alive. Every shot they take increases the chances of destroying the MF (i.e. Han makes a break for it and accidently runs across an asteroid).
بيرني كان سيفوز
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
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ipsa scientia potestas est
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Nuclear Navy Warwolf
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
"To drive Han out of hiding "
Right, so why did they enter the asteroid feild then? If you are just going to fire shots to drive some out of cover it is best not get entangled yourself. Stand off and fire from a distance.
However there are a few little problems here:
1. The Imps are vaping asteroids with greater mass than the MF. It is known that the MF is having some type of technical difficulites (otherwise they would have hyped out with everyone else). Therefore a prudent military commander attempting to capture the MF must assume that the MF's sheilds could be down ... so if he goes to flush them out its a good idea to use rounds that wouldn't um say kill the target. This is why Police use teargas to flush out assailants rather than bullets.
2. Why in hell would Han be flushed by the Imps blowing up rocks? The Imps know he does not have a direct LoS (otherwise the can just send a beam to him, bounce it off, and watch for an odd shift). Han can't see that they are blowing the rocks, and if he's on the rock he's *dead*. Unlike atmospheric shelling where the sound will carry news of the shelling, vaping an asteroid does not give off a boom and gives precious little signal anyways.
3. Copious amounts of fire tend to pin people down, rather than get them to run. Think about it when a marine hears a HMG in his vicinity his instinct is to: a. Run b. Hit the deck? When shots are going off all around you the normal (and sane) reaction is to stay put. They aren't hitting you and most likely won't. Whereas running widly across a half dozen gunner's sights is a very good way to be sure they do start aiming for you. Hell what does Han do in response to the bombs? He, like any wise person, stays put (and of course goes after the girl, but who can blame him).
4. Most curiosly the ISD's continue vaping rocks AFTER Han bolts:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Charac ... alcblt.jpg
and AGAIN
http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Charac ... lcblt2.jpg
So tell me are their gunners/commanders that pathetic that they continue vaping rocks after the target is flushed?
THEY DID! Look at an ISD. The communications stuff is on the bridge tower. They dropped the bridge shields. And we have ZERO indication as to how small a hole they can make it.
You realize that the bridge tower is several stories tall? You realize that the asteroid that struck the tower was *70m* in diametre? So tell me why in hell you'd open a hole 70m wide for bloody communications, what frikking type of carrier particle requires that much space to ingress and egress? The smallest hole is likely the width of a missile, unless you think those are carried outside the sheild.
"Vader just called you and said get on the line now. Are ou going to tell the Emperor's right hand man, a guy who kills people for little screw ups, to hold on a minute? "
Well this leads to its own set of problems:
1. If Vader wants to catch the MF he should not take actions that decrease his chances of doing so.
2. Which serves Vader better to find the Falcon? A realtime chat that ends up significantly damaging one ship, thus curtailing its search efforts, or a one line text message with whatever communication system they use when they want to keep sheilds up.
I mean seriously you are not making Vader just callous and murderous, rather moronic, stupid, and vain. He's goals are better served by using a *safe* message system. Undamaged ships are undoubtedly better at searching for the MF.
They are blowing the asteroids up to try and drive Han out of hiding. Or maybe you missed the bit where Bombers were dropping thermal detanators on the asteroids?
Yes dumbass, bombs that did not do significant damage to the surface, bombs that *DIDN'T* risk killing the MF. Bombs that the MF knew were being dropped (as opposed to Vaped asteroids which the MF would know *nothing* about). Quite likely such bombs would have only *damaged* the Falcon (think ions) and not *obliterated* it.
Did you stop to think about this *at all*? You have a guy you want alive; he's hiding. This is the dead of space so the only place to be hiding is behind or inside an asteroid. So they start shooting, blasts which could *kill* the MF if she is unsheilded (you know so she uses less power so she gives off less EM). Most likely the MF can't see a *single* explosion, so it has *no* effect. If the MF can does know about it, then the logical course of action is *NOT TO MOVE*, the obviously haven't found you (or they'd be shooting at you instead) and running makes it damn likely they will find you. Lots of shots of high power shots in the vicinity of the target has a name ... its called suppressive fire. If the Imps don't understand that basic of tactics they are even bigger frikking morons.
Right, so why did they enter the asteroid feild then? If you are just going to fire shots to drive some out of cover it is best not get entangled yourself. Stand off and fire from a distance.
However there are a few little problems here:
1. The Imps are vaping asteroids with greater mass than the MF. It is known that the MF is having some type of technical difficulites (otherwise they would have hyped out with everyone else). Therefore a prudent military commander attempting to capture the MF must assume that the MF's sheilds could be down ... so if he goes to flush them out its a good idea to use rounds that wouldn't um say kill the target. This is why Police use teargas to flush out assailants rather than bullets.
2. Why in hell would Han be flushed by the Imps blowing up rocks? The Imps know he does not have a direct LoS (otherwise the can just send a beam to him, bounce it off, and watch for an odd shift). Han can't see that they are blowing the rocks, and if he's on the rock he's *dead*. Unlike atmospheric shelling where the sound will carry news of the shelling, vaping an asteroid does not give off a boom and gives precious little signal anyways.
3. Copious amounts of fire tend to pin people down, rather than get them to run. Think about it when a marine hears a HMG in his vicinity his instinct is to: a. Run b. Hit the deck? When shots are going off all around you the normal (and sane) reaction is to stay put. They aren't hitting you and most likely won't. Whereas running widly across a half dozen gunner's sights is a very good way to be sure they do start aiming for you. Hell what does Han do in response to the bombs? He, like any wise person, stays put (and of course goes after the girl, but who can blame him).
4. Most curiosly the ISD's continue vaping rocks AFTER Han bolts:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Charac ... alcblt.jpg
and AGAIN
http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Charac ... lcblt2.jpg
So tell me are their gunners/commanders that pathetic that they continue vaping rocks after the target is flushed?
THEY DID! Look at an ISD. The communications stuff is on the bridge tower. They dropped the bridge shields. And we have ZERO indication as to how small a hole they can make it.
You realize that the bridge tower is several stories tall? You realize that the asteroid that struck the tower was *70m* in diametre? So tell me why in hell you'd open a hole 70m wide for bloody communications, what frikking type of carrier particle requires that much space to ingress and egress? The smallest hole is likely the width of a missile, unless you think those are carried outside the sheild.
"Vader just called you and said get on the line now. Are ou going to tell the Emperor's right hand man, a guy who kills people for little screw ups, to hold on a minute? "
Well this leads to its own set of problems:
1. If Vader wants to catch the MF he should not take actions that decrease his chances of doing so.
2. Which serves Vader better to find the Falcon? A realtime chat that ends up significantly damaging one ship, thus curtailing its search efforts, or a one line text message with whatever communication system they use when they want to keep sheilds up.
I mean seriously you are not making Vader just callous and murderous, rather moronic, stupid, and vain. He's goals are better served by using a *safe* message system. Undamaged ships are undoubtedly better at searching for the MF.
They are blowing the asteroids up to try and drive Han out of hiding. Or maybe you missed the bit where Bombers were dropping thermal detanators on the asteroids?
Yes dumbass, bombs that did not do significant damage to the surface, bombs that *DIDN'T* risk killing the MF. Bombs that the MF knew were being dropped (as opposed to Vaped asteroids which the MF would know *nothing* about). Quite likely such bombs would have only *damaged* the Falcon (think ions) and not *obliterated* it.
Did you stop to think about this *at all*? You have a guy you want alive; he's hiding. This is the dead of space so the only place to be hiding is behind or inside an asteroid. So they start shooting, blasts which could *kill* the MF if she is unsheilded (you know so she uses less power so she gives off less EM). Most likely the MF can't see a *single* explosion, so it has *no* effect. If the MF can does know about it, then the logical course of action is *NOT TO MOVE*, the obviously haven't found you (or they'd be shooting at you instead) and running makes it damn likely they will find you. Lots of shots of high power shots in the vicinity of the target has a name ... its called suppressive fire. If the Imps don't understand that basic of tactics they are even bigger frikking morons.
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The Imps can't stay outside the asteroid field. That thing is fucking huge. The Falcon can potentially stay in the field for years without being spotted if it has enough supplies. So they have to go in, which means risking damage from asteroids. BTW, didn't those asteroids contain metal? If so, then they'll mask the Falcon from sensors (ref. HTTH & Bacta War).
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More importantly, had the Imperials not followed the MF into the asteroid field, it would have taken longer to weed out the MF, and that would have meant that Vader would have had to have spent more time searching for Luke. That is something he was apparently unwilling to do.
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Look my only cotention is that KE impactors with energies similar to those in the TESB asteroid feild cause damage to an ISD in great disproportion to a TL blast of equivalent energy.
Some people are argueing that the Hoth asteroid feild is not dangerous for sheilded ISD's.
To me the simplistic explanation for risking the death of your target is that if you don't you will die or be unable to capture them anways. Other people want to say that the Imps are using their shots to "flush" out the Falcon and that the only damage that is occuring is because Vader insists on using the holocom which for some technobabble reason can't work without a gaping hole in the sheilds.
The Imps can't stay outside the asteroid field. That thing is fucking huge. The Falcon can potentially stay in the field for years without being spotted if it has enough supplies. So they have to go in, which means risking damage from asteroids.
I agree, however if you are trying to flush a quarry you normally do not go in yourself. You send in spotters and fire from a distance ... once the quarry spooks you close in. Has no one gone rabbit hunting here?
More importantly, had the Imperials not followed the MF into the asteroid field, it would have taken longer to weed out the MF, and that would have meant that Vader would have had to have spent more time searching for Luke. That is something he was apparently unwilling to do.
Again agreed. However this yet another point against the holocom explanation. The fastest way to find the Falcon is to have as many ISD's working as possible. Unless Vader is stupid he'd realize this and not ask ISD's to lower sheilds just so he can have a pretty hologram to talk to. You send all the ships in, have them vape dangerous asteroids, and possibly use some explosives on large asteroids to flush the Falcon should she be hiding on such an asteroid.
Some people are argueing that the Hoth asteroid feild is not dangerous for sheilded ISD's.
To me the simplistic explanation for risking the death of your target is that if you don't you will die or be unable to capture them anways. Other people want to say that the Imps are using their shots to "flush" out the Falcon and that the only damage that is occuring is because Vader insists on using the holocom which for some technobabble reason can't work without a gaping hole in the sheilds.
The Imps can't stay outside the asteroid field. That thing is fucking huge. The Falcon can potentially stay in the field for years without being spotted if it has enough supplies. So they have to go in, which means risking damage from asteroids.
I agree, however if you are trying to flush a quarry you normally do not go in yourself. You send in spotters and fire from a distance ... once the quarry spooks you close in. Has no one gone rabbit hunting here?
More importantly, had the Imperials not followed the MF into the asteroid field, it would have taken longer to weed out the MF, and that would have meant that Vader would have had to have spent more time searching for Luke. That is something he was apparently unwilling to do.
Again agreed. However this yet another point against the holocom explanation. The fastest way to find the Falcon is to have as many ISD's working as possible. Unless Vader is stupid he'd realize this and not ask ISD's to lower sheilds just so he can have a pretty hologram to talk to. You send all the ships in, have them vape dangerous asteroids, and possibly use some explosives on large asteroids to flush the Falcon should she be hiding on such an asteroid.
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Darth Yoshi
- Metroid
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- Contact:
We could just say that particle shields are better against KE than momentum, since the two have different properties.
Lore Monkey | the Pichu-master™
Secularism—since AD 80
Av: Elika; Prince of Persia
Regarding Die is Cast: Who decides to destroy a planet and doesn't bring along enough firepower to do it?
How does just the NDF take that much away from the scale of what they were planning on doing that it bring ST weapons down to the point where they no longer pose any sort of threat to SW?
For one it's been established that the Romulans had the technology to build ships to leave Vulcan 2000 years ago and the technology to destroy Starfleet asteroid bases in 2 shots (and do enough damage to bring down the shields and kill most of the crew in the first shot) a hundred years ago.
Why wasn't anybody in awe of their weapons performing above and beyond what is considered impossible for them and what would be the point in drastically underestimating the time it would take to destroy the planet?
The end result is the same, just not as one sided.
How does just the NDF take that much away from the scale of what they were planning on doing that it bring ST weapons down to the point where they no longer pose any sort of threat to SW?
For one it's been established that the Romulans had the technology to build ships to leave Vulcan 2000 years ago and the technology to destroy Starfleet asteroid bases in 2 shots (and do enough damage to bring down the shields and kill most of the crew in the first shot) a hundred years ago.
Why wasn't anybody in awe of their weapons performing above and beyond what is considered impossible for them and what would be the point in drastically underestimating the time it would take to destroy the planet?
The end result is the same, just not as one sided.
"We at Yahoo have a lot of experience in helping people navigate an environment full of falsehoods, random useless information, and truly horrifying pornography. I don't think the human soul will hold any real surprises for us." - The Onion
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Kazuaki Shimazaki
- Jedi Council Member
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Tharkun...
Have you considered that considering the Avenger did not hesitate to open fire at the Falcon when it came out that the guns being committed into action at their particular power settings will NOT immediately kill the Falcon (no HTLs were involved?) You have no conception of the exact defensive abilities of the Falcon's shielding and armor, and you just conclude because they are shots good enough to blow up asteroids bigger than the Falcon, they must be a dastardly threat that will kill the Falcon in one blow.
Vader has chosen a strategy in which he uses his beaters, his spotters, and his trappers at the same time. His commanders probably have a better conception of what the MF in a particular situation can take (and in fact, because they don't know precisely how many modifications Han made to the MF, they are probably conservatively calculating starting from an old YT-1300 and stepping up.)
His trappers (ISDs) must be closely behind his beaters because he needs them to quickly disable and finish tractoring in the Falcon before he eludes them.
Yes, shooting rounds at someone does keep their heads down. However, this is really more akin to depth charging. A patient submarine can wait out pursuit for days. So you drop charges. If you make his current condition untenable (which you DON'T do by not doing anything,) he'll be willing to come out. Vader's assuming Han's or whoever's driving the ship's smart (he's not going to come out easily just because we fake we are not firing.) Unless he's willing to hold out for a seige, trying to DC them out is a possible strategy.
Your only thing is the holocomm. There is something call cost:benefit analysis. A Destroyer (and most other ships for that matter) are not generally expected to hold prolonged long-range videophone calls during hazardous operations. And if the designer never foresaw this need, then it is quite likely a system with elaborate holes in it would cost MORE than a system without. The huge Com-Scan suite on the bridge tower far away from the main hull is likely to work better than a relatively small transmitter that you smuggle in around your hangar bay. Even if they put it around the hangar, they might decide that considering the need ratios, there is no need to specially put in extra holes. Ship design is a fucking complicated business.
You try to construct a workaround using a relay shuttle, even though you don't even know if they have a miniature holocomm sitting around for them to try that with! As for comms jamming as a possible reason for need, you ARE aware that a shipboard system will be far more likely to be able to cut through interference than a small suite on some shuttle. If the main suite can't punch through the interference, relaying it to some shuttle to transmit it won't do squat.
And Vader merely just made a preferred tradeoff in the game of safety versus control. Every time a sub sticks up an antenna for the radio, it is taking a major risk, especially if it is transmitting. But we demand they do it at regular intervals, simply because we want control. Vader wants face-to-face with his Captains so they know precisely what he wants. That's HIS perogative, and only one ship even began to pay for his decision.
Vader has chosen a strategy in which he uses his beaters, his spotters, and his trappers at the same time. His commanders probably have a better conception of what the MF in a particular situation can take (and in fact, because they don't know precisely how many modifications Han made to the MF, they are probably conservatively calculating starting from an old YT-1300 and stepping up.)
His trappers (ISDs) must be closely behind his beaters because he needs them to quickly disable and finish tractoring in the Falcon before he eludes them.
Yes, shooting rounds at someone does keep their heads down. However, this is really more akin to depth charging. A patient submarine can wait out pursuit for days. So you drop charges. If you make his current condition untenable (which you DON'T do by not doing anything,) he'll be willing to come out. Vader's assuming Han's or whoever's driving the ship's smart (he's not going to come out easily just because we fake we are not firing.) Unless he's willing to hold out for a seige, trying to DC them out is a possible strategy.
Your only thing is the holocomm. There is something call cost:benefit analysis. A Destroyer (and most other ships for that matter) are not generally expected to hold prolonged long-range videophone calls during hazardous operations. And if the designer never foresaw this need, then it is quite likely a system with elaborate holes in it would cost MORE than a system without. The huge Com-Scan suite on the bridge tower far away from the main hull is likely to work better than a relatively small transmitter that you smuggle in around your hangar bay. Even if they put it around the hangar, they might decide that considering the need ratios, there is no need to specially put in extra holes. Ship design is a fucking complicated business.
You try to construct a workaround using a relay shuttle, even though you don't even know if they have a miniature holocomm sitting around for them to try that with! As for comms jamming as a possible reason for need, you ARE aware that a shipboard system will be far more likely to be able to cut through interference than a small suite on some shuttle. If the main suite can't punch through the interference, relaying it to some shuttle to transmit it won't do squat.
And Vader merely just made a preferred tradeoff in the game of safety versus control. Every time a sub sticks up an antenna for the radio, it is taking a major risk, especially if it is transmitting. But we demand they do it at regular intervals, simply because we want control. Vader wants face-to-face with his Captains so they know precisely what he wants. That's HIS perogative, and only one ship even began to pay for his decision.
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His Divine Shadow
- Commence Primary Ignition
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Re: Tarkun
Lamer!Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Actually, they are the officially listed YIELDS. It is all automatic. My calculations go up to 600-800GT, or even in the teratons
My figures are in the Petaton range!
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
Have you considered that considering the Avenger did not hesitate to open fire at the Falcon when it came out that the guns being committed into action at their particular power settings will NOT immediately kill the Falcon (no HTLs were involved?)
Yep, but here is the rub. Those shots are vaping Falcon sized asteroids, asteroids which are most likely solid and metallic. Now the imps don't know if the Falcon has sheilds up if they can't get sensor readings (when hiding you shut *everything* down so you emit less EM), and further they *know* she is damaged. They don't know if the hyperdrive fritzed or if the reactor is going down. So when the Falcon is hiding we don't if the sheilds are up, when the Avenger attacks they presumably know the sheilds are up.
As for the strength of the armor. We know the Falcon is not obnoxiously heavy ... none of the asteroids (even the light ones) are appreciably effected by her gravity so she is not made of super dense materials (i.e. some idiots have claimed that all SW hulls are made out of neutronium ... if that were the case the whole TESB asteroid feild would have collapsed onto the ships from gravity). So let's say that the entire Falcon is made out of say depleted Uranium. Given the amount of *empty* space (people can walk around, she's allegedly a freighter, etc.) it should require *far* less energy to vape the the Falcon than a larger ferrous asteroid.
Even if the Falcon has some mystical armor that is ability to absorb the blast and not be vaporized ... where does the energy go? You are in the vacuum of space so it all stays in the Falcon until its radiated away. This means that you have to store the energy somewhere (i.e. in a bigass capacitator), or it goes to thermal energy. Given that the Falcon is *known* to be damaged you cannot assume that any such energy storage device is working. So even if you have armor made out of <technobabble> it still has to do something with the energy ... something besides going thermal and cooking crew alive.
Vader has chosen a strategy in which he uses his beaters, his spotters, and his trappers at the same time. His commanders probably have a better conception of what the MF in a particular situation can take (and in fact, because they don't know precisely how many modifications Han made to the MF, they are probably conservatively calculating starting from an old YT-1300 and stepping up.)
Then Vader is incompotent. You have a ship that is known to be damaged and known to be hiding. Either of those means its *rank* stupidity to assume the hardware is working. If you want to capture a damage ship with the crew alive, you do not assume its armor, damage control, etc. are in working order.
Yes, shooting rounds at someone does keep their heads down. However, this is really more akin to depth charging. A patient submarine can wait out pursuit for days. So you drop charges. If you make his current condition untenable (which you DON'T do by not doing anything,) he'll be willing to come out. Vader's assuming Han's or whoever's driving the ship's smart (he's not going to come out easily just because we fake we are not firing.) Unless he's willing to hold out for a seige, trying to DC them out is a possible strategy.
Sigh depths charges are used when you don't care about capturing a sub (which is generally regarded as nigh to impossible). If a depth charge goes off and kills the sub ... most often the attacker is happy. Can you name a single instance where a sub was wanted alive and depth charges were used?
You do not use potentially lethal fire to flush a target. You use ones which damage him, but do not kill him.
Your only thing is the holocomm. There is something call cost:benefit analysis. A Destroyer (and most other ships for that matter) are not generally expected to hold prolonged long-range videophone calls during hazardous operations. And if the designer never foresaw this need, then it is quite likely a system with elaborate holes in it would cost MORE than a system without. The huge Com-Scan suite on the bridge tower far away from the main hull is likely to work better than a relatively small transmitter that you smuggle in around your hangar bay. Even if they put it around the hangar, they might decide that considering the need ratios, there is no need to specially put in extra holes. Ship design is a fucking complicated business.
Yes ship design is complicated, however when you are building 25,000 of these monstrosities you do it damn right. Given that signals are digitizable There is no frikking reason to keep the transmitter on the bridge ... you can route the signal anywhere in the damn ISD with simple copper wire. We aren't talking some huge redesign, we are talking about something dirt simple.
You try to construct a workaround using a relay shuttle, even though you don't even know if they have a miniature holocomm sitting around for them to try that with! As for comms jamming as a possible reason for need, you ARE aware that a shipboard system will be far more likely to be able to cut through interference than a small suite on some shuttle. If the main suite can't punch through the interference, relaying it to some shuttle to transmit it won't do squat.
Depends on how far away the shuttle is. Using a laser you can easily transmit hundreds of thousands of km, if the jammer is near the ISD you might not be able to transmit, but EM drops off with distance squared so the effective jamming at the relay would be *1/10,000,000,000* of that at the ISD. With a slight time lag you can get even more insane numbers. This is not a new concept we have this capability today. If you don't have some type of relay ... then you are deficient.
And Vader merely just made a preferred tradeoff in the game of safety versus control. Every time a sub sticks up an antenna for the radio, it is taking a major risk, especially if it is transmitting. But we demand they do it at regular intervals, simply because we want control. Vader wants face-to-face with his Captains so they know precisely what he wants. That's HIS perogative, and only one ship even began to pay for his decision.
Do you have any idea how frikking petty that is? Given the distances we see in TESB he could do the *entire* conference with lasers and still get visuals, yes it wouldn't be spiffy 3d's but he could still have visuals ... we have that tech today. Hell are you saying that VADER cannot elicit control without a 3D figure? There is nothing said in the entire frikking breifing that could not have been communicated over text. If the fact that a the guy could kill you with a thought doesn't make you submit ... what the hell will?
Look at what your position gets you to:
1. The ISD's vaping rocks that the MF *CANNOT SEE* hoping to flush her.
2. Imperial communications, which are apparently *vital* to Lord Vader require you leave gaping holes in the sheilds. After 25,000 ships nobody had the brains to use copper wire and sent the signal from a less vital area or make a standard relay system.
3. Vader, knowing this, is so petty and incompotent he requires his ships to down their sheild just so he can have pretty 3d holograms (as opposed to 2d visuals or text messages).
4. Vader's control of the fleet is so tenous that he has to have spiffy 3d visuals to maintain it. He cannot pass specific instructions without 3d images.
I'm sorry I prefer the less convoluted theory.
Yep, but here is the rub. Those shots are vaping Falcon sized asteroids, asteroids which are most likely solid and metallic. Now the imps don't know if the Falcon has sheilds up if they can't get sensor readings (when hiding you shut *everything* down so you emit less EM), and further they *know* she is damaged. They don't know if the hyperdrive fritzed or if the reactor is going down. So when the Falcon is hiding we don't if the sheilds are up, when the Avenger attacks they presumably know the sheilds are up.
As for the strength of the armor. We know the Falcon is not obnoxiously heavy ... none of the asteroids (even the light ones) are appreciably effected by her gravity so she is not made of super dense materials (i.e. some idiots have claimed that all SW hulls are made out of neutronium ... if that were the case the whole TESB asteroid feild would have collapsed onto the ships from gravity). So let's say that the entire Falcon is made out of say depleted Uranium. Given the amount of *empty* space (people can walk around, she's allegedly a freighter, etc.) it should require *far* less energy to vape the the Falcon than a larger ferrous asteroid.
Even if the Falcon has some mystical armor that is ability to absorb the blast and not be vaporized ... where does the energy go? You are in the vacuum of space so it all stays in the Falcon until its radiated away. This means that you have to store the energy somewhere (i.e. in a bigass capacitator), or it goes to thermal energy. Given that the Falcon is *known* to be damaged you cannot assume that any such energy storage device is working. So even if you have armor made out of <technobabble> it still has to do something with the energy ... something besides going thermal and cooking crew alive.
Vader has chosen a strategy in which he uses his beaters, his spotters, and his trappers at the same time. His commanders probably have a better conception of what the MF in a particular situation can take (and in fact, because they don't know precisely how many modifications Han made to the MF, they are probably conservatively calculating starting from an old YT-1300 and stepping up.)
Then Vader is incompotent. You have a ship that is known to be damaged and known to be hiding. Either of those means its *rank* stupidity to assume the hardware is working. If you want to capture a damage ship with the crew alive, you do not assume its armor, damage control, etc. are in working order.
Yes, shooting rounds at someone does keep their heads down. However, this is really more akin to depth charging. A patient submarine can wait out pursuit for days. So you drop charges. If you make his current condition untenable (which you DON'T do by not doing anything,) he'll be willing to come out. Vader's assuming Han's or whoever's driving the ship's smart (he's not going to come out easily just because we fake we are not firing.) Unless he's willing to hold out for a seige, trying to DC them out is a possible strategy.
Sigh depths charges are used when you don't care about capturing a sub (which is generally regarded as nigh to impossible). If a depth charge goes off and kills the sub ... most often the attacker is happy. Can you name a single instance where a sub was wanted alive and depth charges were used?
You do not use potentially lethal fire to flush a target. You use ones which damage him, but do not kill him.
Your only thing is the holocomm. There is something call cost:benefit analysis. A Destroyer (and most other ships for that matter) are not generally expected to hold prolonged long-range videophone calls during hazardous operations. And if the designer never foresaw this need, then it is quite likely a system with elaborate holes in it would cost MORE than a system without. The huge Com-Scan suite on the bridge tower far away from the main hull is likely to work better than a relatively small transmitter that you smuggle in around your hangar bay. Even if they put it around the hangar, they might decide that considering the need ratios, there is no need to specially put in extra holes. Ship design is a fucking complicated business.
Yes ship design is complicated, however when you are building 25,000 of these monstrosities you do it damn right. Given that signals are digitizable There is no frikking reason to keep the transmitter on the bridge ... you can route the signal anywhere in the damn ISD with simple copper wire. We aren't talking some huge redesign, we are talking about something dirt simple.
You try to construct a workaround using a relay shuttle, even though you don't even know if they have a miniature holocomm sitting around for them to try that with! As for comms jamming as a possible reason for need, you ARE aware that a shipboard system will be far more likely to be able to cut through interference than a small suite on some shuttle. If the main suite can't punch through the interference, relaying it to some shuttle to transmit it won't do squat.
Depends on how far away the shuttle is. Using a laser you can easily transmit hundreds of thousands of km, if the jammer is near the ISD you might not be able to transmit, but EM drops off with distance squared so the effective jamming at the relay would be *1/10,000,000,000* of that at the ISD. With a slight time lag you can get even more insane numbers. This is not a new concept we have this capability today. If you don't have some type of relay ... then you are deficient.
And Vader merely just made a preferred tradeoff in the game of safety versus control. Every time a sub sticks up an antenna for the radio, it is taking a major risk, especially if it is transmitting. But we demand they do it at regular intervals, simply because we want control. Vader wants face-to-face with his Captains so they know precisely what he wants. That's HIS perogative, and only one ship even began to pay for his decision.
Do you have any idea how frikking petty that is? Given the distances we see in TESB he could do the *entire* conference with lasers and still get visuals, yes it wouldn't be spiffy 3d's but he could still have visuals ... we have that tech today. Hell are you saying that VADER cannot elicit control without a 3D figure? There is nothing said in the entire frikking breifing that could not have been communicated over text. If the fact that a the guy could kill you with a thought doesn't make you submit ... what the hell will?
Look at what your position gets you to:
1. The ISD's vaping rocks that the MF *CANNOT SEE* hoping to flush her.
2. Imperial communications, which are apparently *vital* to Lord Vader require you leave gaping holes in the sheilds. After 25,000 ships nobody had the brains to use copper wire and sent the signal from a less vital area or make a standard relay system.
3. Vader, knowing this, is so petty and incompotent he requires his ships to down their sheild just so he can have pretty 3d holograms (as opposed to 2d visuals or text messages).
4. Vader's control of the fleet is so tenous that he has to have spiffy 3d visuals to maintain it. He cannot pass specific instructions without 3d images.
I'm sorry I prefer the less convoluted theory.
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Grand Admiral Thrawn
- Ruthless Imperial Tyrant
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- Joined: 2002-07-03 06:11pm
- Location: Canada
Re: Tarkun
His Divine Shadow wrote:Lamer!Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Actually, they are the officially listed YIELDS. It is all automatic. My calculations go up to 600-800GT, or even in the teratons
My figures are in the Petaton range!
Lamer!
My figures are in the Yottaton range! (Strangly, the troll Omicron-Theta helped me with them)
"You know, I was God once."
"Yes, I saw. You were doing well, until everyone died."
Bender and God, Futurama
"Yes, I saw. You were doing well, until everyone died."
Bender and God, Futurama