Eternal_Freedom wrote: ↑2023-05-28 04:20pmYup. The reason I said Stalingrad was you'd think the Russian's would know how to avoid repeating Paulus' mistakes.
I'm not convinced the higher echelons of the Russian military are capable of learning from their own mistakes, let alone those made by their fathers' and grandfathers' enemies.
I'd say it's less that they're not capable of learning from their mistakes and more that they're not capable of accepting it was their mistake to begin with.
(snip)
THIS. THIS IS IT RIGHT HERE.
Putin had a plan, he had enough resources and material to take Kyiv in a month outside (or so he thought).
Now, he can't back out, he can't admit he fucked up, and he WON'T admit he fucked up, and so he's dragging Russia down with him.
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
The thing is the initial plan wouldn't been that bad had Putin's assumptions been correct, mainly that Ukraine was so pro-Russia that the resistance would be minimal and there would plenty of local support and that Russian military wasn't a total joke due to systematic corruption.
But when the Ukraine offered stiff resistance and there was only very limited local support for Russia (not mention that Europe unified in supporting Ukraine) and Russian army is competing with WWII Italian army as to whose performance is worse, the whole thing came crashing down and Putin can't fix it since unlike Stalin he doesn't have humility to admit he made a mistake and a different approach is needed (and Joseph Stalin isn't exactly known for his humility).
This leads to the situation we have here with thousands dead and for nothing, even if Ukraine offered total unconditional surrender tomorrow (not likely) I suspect the war has already cost Russia so much that any gains they'd get from it would irrelevant as the balance would still be heavily in the negative.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
Rogue 9 wrote: ↑2023-05-29 03:33pm
A pro-Russia Ukraine wouldn't have elected Zelensky.
In free and fair elections no, but Putin thought (and as far as I know still does) that the "West" (however you want to define that) overruled the "true will of the Ukrainian people" (aka the pro-Russia stance) and forced Zelensky to be elected to be their puppet.
Obviously this in a sense a reflection of that fact that there's probably not been a single fair election in Russia since Putin took over (assuming there were ones before that) and thus Putin probably thinks this is the case everywhere.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
Or to be more exact Russia thinks every Ukrainian President since the Euromaidan protests and not just Zelensky is a puppet of the "West" and last "true" Ukrainian president is the one who got ousted by said protests (and who just happens to be pro-Russia).
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
Russia has issued an arrest warrant for US Senator Lindsey Graham, after an edited video appeared to show him celebrating Russian troops' deaths.
The footage, which spliced together two separate moments, was posted by President Volodymyr Zelensky's office after the pair met in Kyiv on Friday.
In it Senator Graham called aid to Kyiv as "the best money we've ever spent", noting Russian troops were "dying".
The senior Republican said he would wear the warrant as a "Badge of Honor".
"To know that my commitment to Ukraine has drawn the ire of Putin's regime brings me immense joy," Senator Graham wrote in a Twitter post on Monday. "I will continue to stand with and for Ukraine's freedom until every Russian soldier is expelled from Ukrainian territory."
"Finally, here's an offer to my Russian 'friends' who want to arrest and try me for calling out the Putin regime as being war criminals: I will submit to jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court if you do," he added.
After Moscow criticised Senator Graham's comments last week - with Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov telling reporters "it's hard to imagine a greater shame for the country than having such senators" - Ukraine uploaded the full, unedited clip to social media on Sunday.
The footage showed that Senator Graham made the comments during two separate parts of the meeting, subsequently edited by President Zelensky's office to appear immediately after each other.
In the first clip he acknowledged the success of US military aid to Ukraine in helping to hold off Russia's advance, hailing it as "the best money we've ever spent".
Later, in a separate, unlinked clip he recalled that many initially believed Ukraine would survive just three days of Moscow's onslaught, noting that instead "the Russians are dying".
But Russia's foreign ministry accused Kyiv of trying to shield Senator Graham from criticism, and challenged him to publicly state if his words had been taken out of context.
Russia's interior ministry - which put Senator Graham on the wanted list - did not say what crimes he had committed.
But last week Moscow's Investigative Committee - a federal law enforcement agency equivalent to the US FBI - said it had initiated an inquiry into "the American senator's rhetoric regarding the killing of Russians".
Senator Graham is considered one of the Republican Party's most hawkish members on foreign policy issues. The South Carolina lawmaker has been a keen supporter of aid to Ukraine and has previously accused Moscow of committing "crimes against humanity" during the conflict.
Last year he sparked anger in Moscow after calling for the assassination of Russian President Vladimir Putin. Writing on Twitter, he claimed that the only way Russia's invasion of Ukraine ends is "for somebody in Russia to take this guy out".
But the 67-year-old is also a close ally of former US President Donald Trump, whose own rhetoric on aid to Ukraine has been unclear.
The frontrunner for the Republican nomination for president in 2024, Mr Trump has consistently claimed he will end the war in 24 hours if re-elected, but has refused to be drawn on whether he wants Ukraine to prevail.
This probably means nothing. Though it would be amusing if Putin upsets the GOP here.
Or they're just setting a realistic objective for once.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin
6 hours ago
By Matt Murphy
BBC News
After Moscow criticised Senator Graham's comments last week - with Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov telling reporters "it's hard to imagine a greater shame for the country than having such senators" - Ukraine uploaded the full, unedited clip to social media on Sunday.
That's rich, when just the other day, Russian senator Alexei Didenko was literally using genocidal rhetoric against Ukraine
The capitals of Russia and Ukraine have been struck by pre-dawn strikes, killing at least one person in Kyiv.
Ukraine said at least 20 Iranian-made drones were destroyed by air defence forces in Kyiv’s airspace in Russia’s third attack on the capital in the past 24 hours.
In Moscow, residents reported hearing explosions and Mayor Sergei Sobyanin later confirmed there had been a drone attack.
Mr Sobyanin said in a Telegram post that the attack caused "insignificant damage" to several buildings.
He said two buildings were evacuated and two people received medical attention for unspecified injuries but did not need to go to hospital, he said.
Russian officials later said several drones were shot down as they approached Moscow.
It was the second reported attack on Moscow after authorities said two drones targeted the Kremlin earlier this month in what was labelled an attempt on President Vladimir Putin's life.
In the attacks overnight on Kyiv, one person died and three were injured when a high-rise building caught fire.
The building’s upper two floors were destroyed, and there may be people under the rubble, the Kyiv Military Administration said.
Resident Valeriya Oreshko said that even though the immediate threat was over, the attacks had everyone on edge.
"You are happy that you are alive, but think about what will happen next," the 39-year-old said.
Moscow has been ramping up its strikes on Kyiv in recent days amid widespread speculation Ukraine is about to start a counterattack.
On May 28 the capital was struck by the largest attack since the start of the war.
Ukrainian officials claimed 54 Russian drones were launched at Kyiv, with 52 of them being shot down.
Although Ukraine has managed to beef up its air defence systems drastically since the start of the war thanks to weapons systems provided by its Western allies, falling debris still presents a major threat.
Pieces of destroyed drones killed one and injured one during the May 28 attack.
Authorities also said falling debris was the cause of a fire after Tuesday's attack.
The war has mostly been in stalemate for several months, with only small amounts of land trading hands at a huge cost in manpower and resources in the city of Bakhmut.
More drone strikes on Moscow which Ukraine is denying responsibility for. One of their Generals did recently say Russia would regret it's drone strikes on Ukraine though.
Only because the Democrats refuse to embrace the politics of spite. But that's a topic for another thread.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin
Mind, he may well be arrested. He's implicated in the Georgia election interference case. But D.A. Willis won't give him over to Russia even if she does charge him.
Zaune wrote: ↑2023-05-30 05:37pm
Only because the Democrats refuse to embrace the politics of spite. But that's a topic for another thread.
Democrats don't like rocking the boat, even if it's the right thing to do.
It's why we haven't seen arrests over Iraq.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
The capitals of Russia and Ukraine have been struck by pre-dawn strikes, killing at least one person in Kyiv.
More drone strikes on Moscow which Ukraine is denying responsibility for.
I'm willing to believe Ukraine's denial (even though it would be a propaganda boost) over the Kremlin's accusation though (what with the Kremlin's track record on speaking anything truthful).
Can't wait for vile Western Putin apologists/propagandists like George Galloway or Max Blumenthal being hysterical and selectively outraged because Ukraine (allegedly) did something similar as Russias has been doing for 15 months (and far worse) against Ukrainian cities
The capitals of Russia and Ukraine have been struck by pre-dawn strikes, killing at least one person in Kyiv.
More drone strikes on Moscow which Ukraine is denying responsibility for.
I'm willing to believe Ukraine's denial (even though it would be a propaganda boost) over the Kremlin's accusation though (what with the Kremlin's track record on speaking anything truthful).
Can't wait for vile Western Putin apologists/propagandists like George Galloway or Max Blumenthal being hysterical and selectively outraged because Ukraine (allegedly) did something similar as Russias has been doing for 15 months (and far worse) against Ukrainian cities
Is Ukraine SUPPLYING the Drones? Possibly.
Are they LAUNCHING the drones? Well, there's plausible deniability with at least two Anti-Putin Russian Factions making cross-border attacks, so.....
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
More drone strikes on Moscow which Ukraine is denying responsibility for.
I'm willing to believe Ukraine's denial (even though it would be a propaganda boost) over the Kremlin's accusation though (what with the Kremlin's track record on speaking anything truthful).
Can't wait for vile Western Putin apologists/propagandists like George Galloway or Max Blumenthal being hysterical and selectively outraged because Ukraine (allegedly) did something similar as Russias has been doing for 15 months (and far worse) against Ukrainian cities
Is Ukraine SUPPLYING the Drones? Possibly.
Are they LAUNCHING the drones? Well, there's plausible deniability with at least two Anti-Putin Russian Factions making cross-border attacks, so.....
They had to fly over 500 km from the Ukrainian border to reach Moscow. I might be wrong, but it seems unlikely they were launched in Ukraine and could reach all the way to Moscow.
Could by anti-Putin Factions operating in Russia's borders. Heck, could be the FSB as they love blowing up Russian appartment buildings in the context of false flag attacks (FSB agents were linked in the 1999 appartment bombings, which were used as a casus belli for Putin's invasion of Chechnya). Could be Wagner making a power play against the Russia's Army leadership by making them look bad.
All I know it's a mess and a small miracle that it took 15 months for Putin's war to spill over in Russia's borders
wautd wrote: ↑2023-05-31 08:33amHeck, could be the FSB as they love blowing up Russian appartment buildings in the context of false flag attacks (FSB agents were linked in the 1999 appartment bombings, which were used as a casus belli for Putin's invasion of Chechnya).
Very unlikely. Not that Putin and company are above false flag attacks, but they've proven they're competent at staying in power and keeping the country under control and like I said awhile back these drone attacks have been pretty close to perfectly geared to maximize how bad/weak they make Putin and minimize the public otherwise giving a shit about them.
wautd wrote: ↑2023-05-31 08:33amHeck, could be the FSB as they love blowing up Russian appartment buildings in the context of false flag attacks (FSB agents were linked in the 1999 appartment bombings, which were used as a casus belli for Putin's invasion of Chechnya).
Very unlikely. Not that Putin and company are above false flag attacks, but they've proven they're competent at staying in power and keeping the country under control and like I said awhile back these drone attacks have been pretty close to perfectly geared to maximize how bad/weak they make Putin and minimize the public otherwise giving a shit about them.
that's interesting. my interpretation was that the drone attacks would stiffen resolve ('blitz spirit') as it's now a personal attack, compared to male realtives being shipped off to die over the border for a wasteland of a town.
madd0c0t0r2 wrote: ↑2023-05-31 10:15am
that's interesting. my interpretation was that the drone attacks would stiffen resolve ('blitz spirit') as it's now a personal attack, compared to male realtives being shipped off to die over the border for a wasteland of a town.
The first one blew up a flag pole or something right before a big patriotic parade most people didn't care about. They might as well have sent up fireworks spelling out "Haha Putin's weiner is small."
These more recent attacks okay less perfect in terms of symbolism but they were aimed at what I'm given to understand is a VERY wealthy and elite area, which is probably why they had any anti drone defenses worth a damn to begin with. So apartments where rich people live in a city that is largely apathetic but not opposed to the war because as previously mentioned, Moscow and Saint Petersburg residents are special and their opinions are disproportionately relevant and thus catered to. Meaning they are much less likely to be drafted and shipped off.
Also whoever did it is apparently content to lob their drones at aforementioned rich assholes instead of more vulnerable areas of the city where non-elites live. I don't know how many people in Moscow have noticed that, but I imagine it's a fair number.
The problem seems to the be that even if we eliminate "Ukraine" from the list of people responsible that doesn't shrink the list that much and some of the factions may be very strongly anti-Putin but aren't pro-Ukraine so aren't loosing sleep over Ukraine getting bombed for them trying to carve out their fiefdoms or at least attempting to.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
Although symbolic, the Moscow drone strike might negatively affect the willingless of the West to provide longer distance weapons to Ukraine though. So whoever wass behind it, it probably wasn't in the best intrest of Ukraine's longer term goals
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia's most powerful mercenary, Yevgeny Prigozhin, said his Wagner group would fight on in Ukraine if his men got a separate section of the front without having to depend on "clowns" who ran swathes of the Russian armed forces.
Celebrating his 62nd birthday on Thursday at a training camp, Prigozhin also confirmed that his men would finally leave the eastern Ukrainian city of Bakhmut on June 5 after handing it to the Russian army. The Wagner mercenaries captured the devastated city in late May after months of grinding warfare.
"If the whole chain (of command) is 100% failed and will only be led by clowns who turn people into meat, then we will not participate in it," said Prigozhin, known for his blunt, often expletive-laced commentary on the conduct of the war.
"Beautiful isn't it?" he said to Russian reporters with a smile, gazing at a night sky lit up with blasts and red flares against bursts of automatic gunfire from his mercenaries.
Russian Mercenary Organization the Wagner Group Is Using Facebook and Twitter To Recruit New Mercs
He then engaged in a detailed description of the prosthetic legs which his wounded men have received, including those who continued to fight.
Prigozhin said his men wanted to rest at camps in Russian-controlled Ukraine for around a month and then things would become clearer.
"It has been a tough year. Then we'll see how it goes," he said.
The restaurateur-turned-mercenary has gained widespread notoriety during the 15-month war in Ukraine, and has regularly insulted President Vladimir Putin's top military brass, especially Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu and Chief of the General Staff Valery Gerasimov, over their performance.
Neither Shoigu or Gerasimov have responded to his insults in public.
Prigozhin, who quipped last week that his nickname should be "Putin's butcher" rather than "Putin's chef", said on Wednesday he had asked prosecutors to investigate whether senior Russian defence officials had committed any "crime" before or during the war in Ukraine.
