Trump and the Jan 6 investigation

[bilateralrope]

Also a pardon can only be for crimes committed before it happened. So it wouldn't have saved him from any of the classified documents charges, while possibly being used as evidence of his guilt in state cases. Or even Federal cases if the Supreme Court overrules the pardon, as self pardons are questionable enough that I'd expect one to be challenged.

Yeah, that too. None of those would have happened in the first place if Trump had been capable of wrapping his head around the idea that they were a big deal and he could have consequences for them

I think this the most important part, I suspect Trump understood at some level that the documents and the Jan 6 events were a big deal, but I suspect he thought himself to be protected from any negative consequences and thus did things that were monumentally stupid.

I think the thought he could use those things to further his own clout/ego without them ever causing issue to him.

He might be still thinking that he can evade most of the consequences. As long as the crimes remain pardonable.

[Solauren]

Maybe they are cooperating. Maybe there isn't enough evidence to indict them yet or they are being pressured to flip..

Maybe Jack Smith is keeping the trial simple to minimise delays because he'd prefer to have it done before the election.

Maybe the people in question thought Trump and things went way to far, and they are more loyal to their country then they are Trumps ego and stupidity.

[Broomstick]

Or even Federal cases if the Supreme Court overrules the pardon, as self pardons are questionable enough that I'd expect one to be challenged.

I don't know if it's possible for our Supreme Court to overturn a Presidential pardon. Not only would it be unprecedented, but it might also be deemed to conflict with the separation of powers. I don't think Congress could overturn one either. In the US Presidential pardons can not be undone once done.

[Ralin]

I don't know if it's possible for our Supreme Court to overturn a Presidential pardon. Not only would it be unprecedented, but it might also be deemed to conflict with the separation of powers. I don't think Congress could overturn one either. In the US Presidential pardons can not be undone once done.

Overturn, no. Say the legal equivalent of "Bitch that's not how it works," yes. If someone has to decide whether it is in fact possible for the president to pardon the president for all crimes known and unknown (which as has been hashed out before violates basically everything about how we know the people who wrote the Constitution thought things should work) then I don't know who other than the Supreme Court would be expected to handle that.

This is as opposed to overturning a pardon because the president was corrupt and took a bribe in exchange for the pardon or was covering for his family/crime buddies.

[Jub]

It seems a failure of US law that it assumes the President is a just servant of the nation and that pardons issued by the holder of that office should be above all other checks and balances. Perhaps Trump's current actions may force this to be examined and laws drafted to curb future abuse of such power.

[Ralin]

It seems a failure of US law that it assumes the President is a just servant of the nation and that pardons issued by the holder of that office should be above all other checks and balances. Perhaps Trump's current actions may force this to be examined and laws drafted to curb future abuse of such power.

It's a constitutionally defined power.

[Batman]

I seem to remember the constitution being ammended once or twice...

[Ralin]

I seem to remember the constitution being ammended once or twice...

Yes. So theoretically it can be done but in practice it's impossible because it requires two-thirds of Congress and three-fourths of the state legislatures to agree to it and haha like that's going to happen.

Also it means Congress can't pass laws changing it.

[Jub]

It seems a failure of US law that it assumes the President is a just servant of the nation and that pardons issued by the holder of that office should be above all other checks and balances. Perhaps Trump's current actions may force this to be examined and laws drafted to curb future abuse of such power.

It's a constitutionally defined power.

I get that Americans think this means it's holy and immutable but it should be a living document that is constantly evaluated as to how well it works in modern times.

[Elheru Aran]

It seems a failure of US law that it assumes the President is a just servant of the nation and that pardons issued by the holder of that office should be above all other checks and balances. Perhaps Trump's current actions may force this to be examined and laws drafted to curb future abuse of such power.

It's a constitutionally defined power.

Part of the balance to this is that while Presidential pardon powers are quite extensive... they only apply to Federal crimes; states still have the authority to prosecute those deeds if they constitute crimes in their states. Note that, for example, Biden pardoned people convicted in Federal courts of marijuana possession; this did absolutely nothing for people convicted in state courts (though he encouraged governors to do the same, but obviously that only goes so far).

I *suspect* the drafters of the Constitution figured that if a President was found to have given out some flagrant pardons, a.) the objects of said pardons would be followed up by the states, and b.) the President would be either impeached or otherwise rendered useless by a hostile Congress and Supreme Court until the end of their term. In practice, obviously it hasn't quite worked out that way... but it's too much power for anybody to turn down (hence why it's never been amended out even though that's a pretty damn obvious issue right there)

[Ralin]

I get that Americans think this means it's holy and immutable but it should be a living document that is constantly evaluated as to how well it works in modern times.

I don't think it's holy and immutable. I think it's effectively impossible to amend it on any vaguely partisan issue.

I will also point out that this is largely a theoretical issue here because as previously mentioned Trump, despite being The Most Corrupt US President Ever, proved weirdly disinclined to use his pardon powers much. Can't really explain why. Seems like something he would love to use left and right just because he could.

[The_Saint]

From what I've seen/heard Trump is somewhat inclined to state most people prosecuted are deserving of punishment. I do wonder if this a psychological thing of being a "winner" versus a "loser". Examples to mind are all his fixers that were getting rolled the other year.

"I'm made of teflon and never lose because i'm a winner." "X got charged, spilled the beans because they're a loser"

[LadyTevar]

From what I've seen/heard Trump is somewhat inclined to state most people prosecuted are deserving of punishment. I do wonder if this a psychological thing of being a "winner" versus a "loser". Examples to mind are all his fixers that were getting rolled the other year.

"I'm made of teflon and never lose because i'm a winner." "X got charged, spilled the beans because they're a loser"

EXACTLY.
Which is probably another reason why he's so upset, he's being shown up as a "loser", in multiple places. But everyone knows he's a WINNER!

[Lord Revan]

Yeah people like Trump are masters of self deception or "editing" the truth to fit their preconceived idea of themselves

[bilateralrope]

From ‘Mr President’ to ‘Mr’: strongman Donald Trump cut down to size in court

David Smith
in Washington

Fri 4 Aug 2023 10.00 BST

Trump has always loved beating his chest, but away from the TV cameras, the former president appeared meek and shrunken

The shock of blond-grey hair was familiar. So was the blue suit, white shirt and red tie. So was the conspicuously assertive tug of the suit jacket.

But the Donald Trump who walked into courtroom 22 on Thursday was a Trump that the public never sees – meek, shrunken, stripped of bravado and any sense of control. And, quite possibly, scared.

In the case United States v Donald J Trump, the former president was taken into custody by the government he sought to overthrow in a Washington courthouse perched between the scenes of the crime: the White House and US Capitol. It was the third time in four months that Trump has stood before a judge and pleaded “not guilty” (and each time no members of his family have been present).

On a day sure to be studied by future generations, Trump was arraigned on four criminal charges stemming from his efforts to remain in power after the 2020 election. This is a man who has always loved beating his chest, sticking his names on buildings, staging military parades and cosying up to dictators. But on Thursday, away from the TV cameras, this wannabe American strongman was cut down to size with exquisite symbolism.

For four years, Trump would enter rooms to the strains of “Hail to the Chief” and everyone would rise to their feet. Now the power dynamics were reversed: at the cry of “All rise!”, it was he who was forced to stand.

Long accused of sexism, racism and xenophobia, he had to defer to magistrate judge Moxila Upadhyaya, a woman born in Gujarat, India. His future trial will be overseen by Judge Tanya Chutkan, a woman born in Kingston, Jamaica, and appointed to the bench by Barack Obama.

Upadhyaya made Trump stew by arriving about 15min late. He occupied that time sitting at a long table that bore a black computer monitor, microphone and sheets of paper. He folded and unfolded his hands, picked up a document and discarded it, turned and whispered to his lawyers. He scratched his nose, scribbled on a document and puffed out his cheeks. Like a child, he could not sit still.

The days when he could push a red button in the Oval Office to order a Diet Coke on a silver platter were long gone. The mouth that summoned armies of supporters to the nearby Capitol on January 6, or that delivers bellicose speeches at campaign rallies, was silenced. When Upadhyaya, firm but courteous, took her seat, she called him “Mr Trump” rather than “President Trump” – a citizen, no more and no less.

It was a humbling worthy of Shakespeare’s Richard II handing his crown to Bolingbroke: “My crown I am, but still my griefs are mine. You may my glories and my state depose but not my griefs; still am I king of those.”

Dethroned, Trump was forced to undergo the same legal rituals as any other defendant. When a court deputy read aloud the name of the case – “United States of America v Donald J Trump” – he shook his head in disapproval.

Trump raised his right hand and was sworn in. There was a flicker of confusion as he stood up to give his name only to be told that sitting would do just fine. “Yes, Your Honour, Donald J Trump,” he said, adding: “John.” He gave his age as 77.

Asked if he had taken a medication or substance in the last 24 hours that would make it hard to answer, Trump replied: “No, I have not.”

Perhaps most sobering of all was Upadhyaya’s recitation of the charges and the “term of imprisonment” that Trump could face “if convicted”. He leaned forward in his chair, listening intently. Was he imagining himself behind bars, the cell door slamming shut? Could anything terrify him more?

Upadhyaya asked for Trump’s plea. “Not guilty,” he said, with an emphasis on “Not”.

The judge agreed to release Trump on conditions, including that he not have contact about the case with any witnesses unless lawyers are present. In a cordial tone that belied the seriousness of her words, she said: “If you fail to comply with any conditions of your release, a warrant may be issued for your arrest.”

Legal experts suggested this is unusual – but maybe necessary for a man twice impeached and thrice indicted.

Every so often Jack Smith, the steely special counsel who investigated both this case and Trump’s mishandling of classified documents, stared at Trump from about 15ft away on the front row.

Trump has made a career from parlaying personal catastrophe into public spectacle. He used to motorcade to his hotel steakhouse on Pennsylvania Avenue or his golf club in Virginia. Now it has become a ritual to travel to court – in New York, Miami and Washington – with TV cameras in tow.

Outside the building, beyond a ring of steel, there were again TV crews and satellite vans, curious onlookers and a small group of Trump supporters. One, wearing a “Make America great again” cap, waved a giant flag that said: “Trump or death. 1776-2024.”

Trump, facing 78 criminal charges in three jurisdictions, seems determined to make these his true judge and jury. Winning the White House back in 2024 could be his last best hope of avoiding jail. Each round of criminal charges has delivered a boost in the Republican primary. On Thursday Trump wrote on his Truth Social media platform: “I need one more indictment to ensure my election!”

Indeed, his one great political insight – “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn’t lose any voters, OK?” – was an understatement. Recent events suggest that he would probably gain voters.

One solution is transparency. Except for a few dozen journalists and judges who attended Thursday’s hearing, the public was denied the chance to see Trump receive his comeuppance after decades of impunity. If they could see the smallness of Trump, some might feel differently.

Presidential historian Michael Beschloss has argued that, given America’s fractured and distorting media lens, the trial of Donald Trump should be broadcast live on television so every voter can witness how no one, not even a president, is above the law. Then the man who promised to make America great again might finally make it great after all.

It sounds like he might realize how bad this will be for him if he can't get that pardon.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

If he becomes President again, Ukraine will be fucked because Trump loves Putin.

[bobalot]

If he becomes President again, Ukraine will be fucked because Trump loves Putin.

I don't think it's even that.

The Democrats and Mainstream Republicans are strongly in favour of supporting Ukraine.

Therefore, he hates Ukraine.

[Solauren]

It sounds like he might realize how bad this will be for him if he can't get that pardon.

Or, he's realizing by the time it's all over and done with, he will not be in position to pardon him self, and he may not be alive to get a pardon from someone else. (Age/Health/Stress).

Also, what happens if he's convicted, wins the oval office, and then incarcerated before being sworn in?

[LadyTevar]

It sounds like he might realize how bad this will be for him if he can't get that pardon.

Or, he's realizing by the time it's all over and done with, he will not be in position to pardon him self, and he may not be alive to get a pardon from someone else. (Age/Health/Stress).

Also, what happens if he's convicted, wins the oval office, and then incarcerated before being sworn in?

I am PRAYING no one's dumb enough to vote him in. I am PRAYING the GOP voters are so split they can't get behind a single runner.

[Batman]

I wouldn't count upon 'no one' but after 4 years of the guy making nóthing but mistakes while in office you'd hope enough people would realize the man is not presidential material. Trump is utterly unqualified at essentially everything, completely IGNORANT about essentially everything. and basically the world's most geriatric and ugly toddler.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I hope to fuck the polls are not an accurate reflection of the voting public's intentions which claim Trump and Biden are about equal. With all the news coverage that Trump is getting, none of the other Republicans are even getting a look-in.

[Solauren]

I wouldn't count upon 'no one' but after 4 years of the guy making nóthing but mistakes while in office you'd hope enough people would realize the man is not presidential material. Trump is utterly unqualified at essentially everything, completely IGNORANT about essentially everything. and basically the world's most geriatric and ugly toddler.

I'm hoping that the people in charge of the nomination process go 'Fuck no, even if everyone wants him to, fuck no'.

Trump's political career has done more damage to the Republicans, and the United States, then just about any other political career.

[Zwinmar]

If teflon don is actually incarcerated they will just try to claim he is a political prisoner and try another coup because they only care about law and order when it is something that they think benefits them (PPP forgiveness), but a as soon as they don't like it (student loans)well we have seen what happens.

[Elfdart]

If teflon don is actually incarcerated they will just try to claim he is a political prisoner and try another coup because they only care about law and order when it is something that they think benefits them (PPP forgiveness), but a as soon as they don't like it (student loans)well we have seen what happens.

Thom Hartmann thinks Il Douchebag is deliberately baiting the judge into jailing him so he can play the martyr. Since he's guilty as fuck and unlikely to get the soft prison conditions Hitler got after his putsch, maybe he's planning to go out Epstein style. His mouth-breather fans will believe Biden had him whacked and he'll be America's Horst Wessel.

[bilateralrope]

It sounds like he might realize how bad this will be for him if he can't get that pardon.

Or, he's realizing by the time it's all over and done with, he will not be in position to pardon him self, and he may not be alive to get a pardon from someone else. (Age/Health/Stress).

Also, what happens if he's convicted, wins the oval office, and then incarcerated before being sworn in?

In that scenario, he still won the election. The constitution says that he is the president. So I'd expect that they find some way to swear him in.

I hope to fuck the polls are not an accurate reflection of the voting public's intentions which claim Trump and Biden are about equal. With all the news coverage that Trump is getting, none of the other Republicans are even getting a look-in.

I'm not expecting his support to really start dropping until the trials.

Thom Hartmann thinks Il Douchebag is deliberately baiting the judge into jailing him so he can play the martyr. Since he's guilty as fuck and unlikely to get the soft prison conditions Hitler got after his putsch, maybe he's planning to go out Epstein style. His mouth-breather fans will believe Biden had him whacked and he'll be America's Horst Wessel.

Yes, Trump dying by suicide would be a bad outcome all round. Though I'm most worried about that happening shortly after the Georgia indictment. Long before any convictions. I'm hoping he goes with plea deals, fleeing the country or trying to keep fighting in court.

But when it comes to his prison conditions, you've got to remember that:
- He hasn't been accused of anything violent. That limits the ability to justify a high security prison.
- Nobody should want him being killed by other prisoners. So anyone imprisoned for Jan 6 is a threat to him.
- As a former president, he's entitled to secret service protection, who are armed. That complicates placing him in any prison that has other prisoners.

So I'm expecting him to be incarcerated somewhere where he's the only prisoner. Even if that means it's house arrest at some isolated property he owns.