Ages and what is acceptable

[weemadando]

I find it strange that in the US you can drive at 16 (IIRC), vote at 18, go into combat at 18, but you can’t drink until you are 21?

Any one else think this is a bit stupid? You can put your life on the line for your nation, but you can’t even have a beer?

[Alex Moon]

Yup. IMHO, people should be allowed to drink at 16, drive at 18, and vote at 21. It makes a hell of a lot more sense than the way the system is now.

[Gandalf]

IIRC in Australia you can drive at 16, and everything else at 18, makes sense to me.

[Ghost Rider]

I say get the whole drinking, voting, and going off to war in the same age(be it 18 or 21)

Seriously somehow getting shot at and killed but unable to buy a beer has always confused the hell out of me.

[Frank Hipper]

In the late 70s, many states lowered the drinking age to 18 or 19. Thanks to Emperor Reagan and his "moral" ilk, that was all changed just in time for me to turn 18.
I was able to buy beer in Ohio during my brother's wedding reception in 1986, the only time I enjoyed those more leniant times.

[Edi]

I think they ratcheted it back up because of all the lawsuits against low-limit states by the parents of kids killed in DUI accidents around state borders. That's what a friend of mine told me anyway when the topic came up elsewhere.

IMO, it's fucking stupid. Here the limit is 18 for drinking, driving and voting. No confusion about any of that.

Edi

[Knife]

I find it strange that in the US you can drive at 16 (IIRC), vote at 18, go into combat at 18, but you can’t drink until you are 21?

Any one else think this is a bit stupid? You can put your life on the line for your nation, but you can’t even have a beer?

It is totally stupid, and all it did was create criminals who were legal before.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Just do not start combining all of the rights and responsibilities....

Driving, Fornicating, & Drinking, while voting in a battlezone can lead to more complications then I can care to think about.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I find it strange that in the US you can drive at 16 (IIRC), vote at 18, go into combat at 18, but you can’t drink until you are 21?

Any one else think this is a bit stupid? You can put your life on the line for your nation, but you can’t even have a beer?

Driving age should be fifteen subject to passage of a comprehensive examine (which is actually hard enough that you can fail, so that some fifteen year olds can pass, but not the ones that shouldn't be driving, while the thirty year olds who remain a safety hazard can't drive either). Alcohol/cigarettes/other things like that should only be sold to those over the age of fifteen, with no limitation on consuming them - that should be up to parents for younger children, like it is in most European countries. The reason Americans have such problems with alcohol is that we're not used to it by the time we're adults.

Voting age should be twenty-five. That should also be the age for the draft (both male and female). Voting is an incredible responsibility and should only be given to someone about marginally mentally competent. About halfway through your mid-twenties is good enough. Most people who go to college have graduated by twenty-five, or those that haven't have decent life experience by then. As for the draft, the years between twenty-five and thirty are at one's physical prime and if we ever needed to institute it again that would be the ideal age to draft people at, anyway - Though I only support the draft in a declared war.

Probably those as young as 15 could volunteer in theory, but at that age wouldn't have combat positions; the army would have to make a judgement call on the combat age. You would be totally under your parents' control up until the age of 15, and then have partial legal rights (beyond basic civil rights) and responsibilities up until the age of 25, when you would become a full citizen.

[Edi]

Driving age should be fifteen subject to passage of a comprehensive examine (which is actually hard enough that you can fail, so that some fifteen year olds can pass, but not the ones that shouldn't be driving, while the thirty year olds who remain a safety hazard can't drive either). Alcohol/cigarettes/other things like that should only be sold to those over the age of fifteen, with no limitation on consuming them - that should be up to parents for younger children, like it is in most European countries. The reason Americans have such problems with alcohol is that we're not used to it by the time we're adults.

Given how I remember what most of the people my age I knew when I was fifteen were like, I'd be extremely leery of letting them drive. Though 18 is a bit high. 16 or 17 should be good enough for that, but it's up to preference. Alcohol freely available for fifteen-year olds (especially if they're allowed to drive as well) is a bad idea. I'm not sure at what point the body is fully capable of dealing with the stuff, but 15 is skirting pretty close since at that point the body is still developing much more than it does at 18 and after, and cigarettes, well, they're a generally bad idea and giving them to minors who usually have rather little sense of responsibility just results in more problems down the road.

If we want a relatively consistent across-the board single limit, 17 or 18 is better, because at that point people usually start the process of developing a sense of responsibility. Introducing stuff like wine with food and so on also helps demystify it. Total ban doesn't work. My parents bought me booze when I was 16, and said that if I want to drink, tell them, they're okay with it and would prefer I behonest about it instead of sneaking behind their backs.

Voting age should be twenty-five. That should also be the age for the draft (both male and female). Voting is an incredible responsibility and should only be given to someone about marginally mentally competent. About halfway through your mid-twenties is good enough. Most people who go to college have graduated by twenty-five, or those that haven't have decent life experience by then. As for the draft, the years between twenty-five and thirty are at one's physical prime and if we ever needed to institute it again that would be the ideal age to draft people at, anyway - Though I only support the draft in a declared war.

I know people over 25 who aren't even marginally mentally competent and people under 18 who are. That limit of 25 is just too high. 18 is quite good enough, even if they don't necessarily vote smartly the first time around. What you want is a meritocracy, but unfortunately it's impossible to implement. Too high age limits also create resentment and civil unrest because people are not allowed to decide about things that affect them even though they are treated in all other ways as full members of society.

Regarding draft and military service, your idea is horrendous. If you have a professional army, you need the people in it to enlist earlier than that because it takes years to train them to the standard you want, and if you only start when they're in their prime, you constantly run against the clock trying to get them to top condition and then keeping them there. Besides, by that time, many people will have stable relationships, families and other things that will definitely discourage them from joining up. Many have also completed their education and are doing important jobs that people fresh out of high school or in the middle of going to college simply can't do but who can shoot a gun equally well and it takes a shorter time to train a draftee soldier than it takes to complete education to e.g. a doctor or engineer. In that sense, cold as this may sound, the younger specimen is more expendable.

Probably those as young as 15 could volunteer in theory, but at that age wouldn't have combat positions; the army would have to make a judgement call on the combat age.

Unworkable idea. A 15-year old is not ready for that and psychologically does not have what it takes (and many older people don't either). Besides that, they're not physically capable of doing many of the required tasks, and keeping them on retainer, so to speak, just consumes resources better used elsewhere, and additionally poses security hazards (on more than one level) the likes of which just aren't acceptable.

You would be totally under your parents' control up until the age of 15, and then have partial legal rights (beyond basic civil rights) and responsibilities up until the age of 25, when you would become a full citizen.

In the current system your parents have jurisdiction until you're 18, which is quite enough. I don't know the exact details of what it's like in the US, but here you get some of those partial responsibilities and liabilities when you turn 15, and full independent jurisdiction over yourself at 18. And it works just fine. We used to have the limits at 24, and it didn't work as well as the current system, which is why it was changed. You would do well to take a look at the practical consequences of your proposal and whether or not it has been tried elsewhere before and what the results were.

Edi

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Unworkable idea. A 15-year old is not ready for that and psychologically does not have what it takes (and many older people don't either). Besides that, they're not physically capable of doing many of the required tasks, and keeping them on retainer, so to speak, just consumes resources better used elsewhere, and additionally poses security hazards (on more than one level) the likes of which just aren't acceptable.

I provided that primarily because I wanted to maintain the 15/25 delineation, and because until recently the British Army allowed people as young as 15 to volunteer, though not to serve in combat positions (or zones), IIRC.

I'll reply to the rest later.

The dual adulthood concept is based on the Roman system for determining adulthood and competency in political and legal affairs. Sometimes it's good to consider what was done in the past, simply because it makes sense. (I really don't think people in their late teens or early twenties should vote, and they don't form enough of the population to pose a serious problem in terms of unrest at any rate. We give to many rights to youth in some areas. Not enough in others in the USA, but far to many in some).

This is all theoretical, anyway, so I'm really just laying out something ideal more than trying for the practical.

[salm]

i think that legal drinking age should be lower than legal driving age because that way people can practice drinking a little bit and also learn how to control their drinking habits before they´re able to get in front of a steering wheel.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

I don't know why the drinking age is 21 either. Nobody listens to it anyway. Besises, isn't American beer pisswater? Why should you have to wait until you're 21? Also, the drinking age is lower in other countries, and they don't have any problems with it.

As for voting, there should be some sort of test you have to take before being able to vote. However, it would probably eliminate 90% of the voters, and America would fall into anarchy because of it.

I say keep the age for joining the army at 18, but raise the minumum age for the draft to an age like 21.

I say child soldiers should be illegal, as I don't know why any child who hasn't grown up playing violent video games would want to fight.

[Joe]

I find it strange that in the US you can drive at 16 (IIRC), vote at 18, go into combat at 18, but you can?t drink until you are 21?

Any one else think this is a bit stupid? You can put your life on the line for your nation, but you can?t even have a beer?

Much to the chagrin of my father, who served during the Vietnam War. He solved the problem by driving south to Tijuana for the weekend (he was stationed in San Diego).

[Sam Or I]

I believe at 15 you can get your pilots license.

[Master of Ossus]

At least in California, the driver's license is a joke. I spent more time learning how to officiate SOCCER MATCHES than I did learning how to drive. I understand the test has gotten even EASIER since then, and the classroom period has become even shorter.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Just wanted to point out that you can drink beer while in the military at 18, if you are at a miliatry bar.

Uh, I do not see any reason why voting should not be allowed at 16.

I would not mind setting the driving to 17 instead of 16 because its an issue of maturity and/or experience when it comes to safe driving. Although I would back the idea of Master of Ossus that the driving test is too easy. If it was tougher I guess we could leave it at 16.

As for military service thats fine at 18 because thats when people graduate from High SChool.

Drinking at 21 is a big deal because we treat alcohol like we treat sex. Its taboo until you go through some right of passage and then you are expected to handle it with maturity.

I think the way europeans handle alcohol is more mature, I think if you grow up having a wine or beer as a normal part of diner you are less likely to be a binge drinker.

[Queeb Salaron]

Drinking at 21 is a big deal because we treat alcohol like we treat sex. Its taboo until you go through some right of passage and then you are expected to handle it with maturity.

I think the way europeans handle alcohol is more mature, I think if you grow up having a wine or beer as a normal part of diner you are less likely to be a binge drinker.

Very true. Europe has a significantly lower rate of alcoholism and deaths as a result of alcohol (though that may be because of their fantastic public transportation systems; they don't drive anywhere, drunk or no).

But the US could never go about implementing such a law. Think about it: If tomorrow the Senate was to say, "Ok, new Federal law: No more legal drinking age. Everyone booze it up!" then there would be a mass exodus to liquor stores by teenagers, and an insane amount of death as a result of that one night of binge drinking. ::Sighs:: The alternative? Move to Amsterdam. Drive fast, fuck hookers legally, smoke weed, trip on shrooms, get plastered, and speak English while doing all of that. It's paradise in leiderhosn.

I defy you to come back from Amsterdam and tell me that the Green Party is a bunch of idiots. ::Glares:: Go on and test me.

[Sea Skimmer]

I provided that primarily because I wanted to maintain the 15/25 delineation, and because until recently the British Army allowed people as young as 15 to volunteer, though not to serve in combat positions (or zones), IIRC.

Its 16 currently, I don't know if it was 15 any time recently. Supposedly though, people who are 16 and want to join will be accepted, but are often not called for training until they are 17-18.


Personal, I say drive at 16, drink and vote at 18.

[Queeb Salaron]

I find it strange that in the US you can drive at 16 (IIRC), vote at 18, go into combat at 18, but you can’t drink until you are 21?

Any one else think this is a bit stupid? You can put your life on the line for your nation, but you can’t even have a beer?

Trust me, as a member if the under-21 brigade, this issue has been considered more than just once. Obviously it doesn't make sense. At the same time, up until last year, Sorority houses were illegal in Massachusetts because of an old law that stated that more than 5 women living in a house together is considered a brothel. That and, like Texas, sodomy, fellatio and cunnilingus are all illegal. Like the old joke goes: Why are protestants opposed to having sex standing up? It might lead to dancing.

[Queeb Salaron]

EDIT: I meant to say Puritains, not Protestants. Of all the goofball mistakes... It was the Texas thing that did it.

...yeah... blame Texas.

[RedImperator]

The 21 year drinking age is just plain stupid. America has a fucked up relationship with booze: drinking alcohol is a major part of our culture, but we've got a Puritan hang-up over it. On a more practical note, it's fucking annoying that I can't invite a 20 year old I like out for a drink.

[Cal Wright]

Yup. IMHO, people should be allowed to drink at 16, drive at 18, and vote at 21. It makes a hell of a lot more sense than the way the system is now.

Well, I was going to say that's the worst idea ever. However, since there isn't a draft anymore, I guess it doesn't matter. The whole reason you could vote at 18 was because they were sending the youth off to DIE in a war dictated by politicians they couldn't even vote for. Hence the lowered the voting age to 18. Drinking may be all fun and games for a lot of people, but I don't drink personally. Lowering the age would be worse. How responsible do you think a 16 year old is going to be if they can legally drink? Seriously. Even if you upt the age to 18 for driving, what's next?

[Coyote]

18 for all things. And don't worry about the vote; chances are in America you could lower the voting age to 10 and still no one would do it.

If you can drive, fight, die, hump, create new people, and determine the leaders then you should be able to kick back and have a beer at the end of such a tiring day...

[Alex Moon]

Yup. IMHO, people should be allowed to drink at 16, drive at 18, and vote at 21. It makes a hell of a lot more sense than the way the system is now.

Well, I was going to say that's the worst idea ever. However, since there isn't a draft anymore, I guess it doesn't matter. The whole reason you could vote at 18 was because they were sending the youth off to DIE in a war dictated by politicians they couldn't even vote for. Hence the lowered the voting age to 18. Drinking may be all fun and games for a lot of people, but I don't drink personally. Lowering the age would be worse. How responsible do you think a 16 year old is going to be if they can legally drink? Seriously. Even if you upt the age to 18 for driving, what's next?

Raise the age of the draft to 21. As for drinking, by lowering the drinking age to sixteen, we allow them to drink while still in high school, and we remove the stigma from it. Teens are more likely to begin drinking in an environment where they are encouraged to show moderation, for example: going out for dinner w/ family and being able to order a glass of wine, or going to the bar with dad. By the time they've turned 18 and can get their license, these teens will have been able to drink for 2 years, and will hopefully have picked up some good habits. As it stands right now, many teens learn to drink at parties where there is a keg and no supervision?