On "versus" fanfics

[Composeure]

First off, is it just me or do the major posters on this site seem to give Star Trek an incredibly good writeup in "vs" fanfics despite everything?

But seriously, it seems to me that fics like Wong's Conquest and that "Stars Crossed" fic are much more willing to give the ST side a leg up than the ST side is to the SW factions. Like, Conquest buffs the Borg notably (and even inserts a strange twist at the end that, while I didn't like, gives ST a tremendous amount of credit for SW itself), while Stars Crossed massively limits the SW side while basically introducing a entire new portion to the setting for the ST side which gives them a huge amount of benefits out of nowhere basically.

Meanwhile ST presents to us Mr. Graham Kennedy's Portal. And while that's an admittedly hyperbolic example, I've seen some greatly imbalanced fics where the anti-GE side was given tremendous advantages against all evidence.

But more on topic, what is your opinion on "vs" fics in the vein of SW vs ST?

Personally, I think they are far more enjoyable when the writer is really analyzing the motives behind each faction. I personally have no large attachment or love for either SW or ST but I think Wong's descriptions of how the UFP officer was disgusted by the amount of different non human species in the Rebel Alliance ship he was on was a very telling and insightful scene about both factions.

Of course, sometimes fic writers have "brain bugs". "The Death Star is weak and easily destroyed" seems to be one of them, as are "Defiant classes could easily destroy average IoM ships" (of course, W40K itself is the subject of huge amounts of wank in its own right, despite the fact that the setting itself is relatively not that strong and in fact has many large flaws). These probably contribute to the prevalence of bad fanfics.

In any case, what are your thoughts on this? Constructive opinions are encouraged.

[Eternal_Freedom]

As a fic writer myself, I can say that it's a lot more fun to write (and read) a fic that isn't a complete curbstomp for one side or another. In my SG/BSG fix for instance, I had the Terran/Colonial guys fighting the Wraith, and while I did include one chapter that was "Battlestars appear and annihilate Wraith fleet" it was genuinely not very satisfying to write, for all that it was necessary in-story.

Think of it like a sporting event. What's going to be a more interesting contest, two teams at the top of their leagues (like say, the Superbowl or Arsenal v Chelsea) or one team at the top of the league versus the local school's Under-16 team? One will be an actual contest, with victory depending on skill, tactics and cunning, while the other will be so one-sided as to be embarrassing to watch.

[Lord Revan]

What I'd said is that one side on VS fic shouldn't have a greater narrative weight then the other, meaning both sides should have more or less the same importance in the narrative.

That doesn't mean you can't have curbstomp in the battlefield as long as the victor is the antagonist of the story, it just means the protagonist have to win another way that doesn't involve direct fighting.

It's important to remember that a "hero" is only as good as the "villain" they fight, if your antagonist is weak and pathetic then your protagonist seem at best weak and pathetic and at worst bullies who should be the antagonists instead. Your Protagonists can be weaker then the Antagonists because people do like seeing the underdog triumph but said protagonist have to win and win in a way that seems logical within the rules the story set up.

To give an example you could have ST vs SW fic between UFP and the Galactic Republic where Starfleet is no match to the Republic fleet and the "victory condition" is Starfleet being able to convince the Republic forces that this was all a terrible mistake, with the true antagonists being people who want the conflict to go on even though logically there's no point to the conflict within the in-universe rules. This allows the Star Trek side something to do in the narrative and as long as you don't write the Star Wars side as total idiots who have to told that fighting is bad, you'll have a narrative where both sides have similar importance and neither side is depicted as the "inferior one" since the underdog faction (Star Trek in this example) wins by employing its strengths.

[Composeure]

What I'd said is that one side on VS fic shouldn't have a greater narrative weight then the other, meaning both sides should have more or less the same importance in the narrative.

Yeah, I think this approach is a good idea. Playing to the strengths of both sides in writing the plot is conducive to a good fanfic.

I honestly just cringe whenever I see writers giving some kind of unwarranted advantage to either side on this kind of fanfic. Personally, like you said, I would rather shoot for a good ending as well that doesn't involve a totally military based solution.

[Solauren]

I've always felt versus and cross-over fictions need to have a certain degree of balancing, unless the imbalance is part of the narrative.

i.e
Yes, the Federation/Trek races are more or less being dominated by the Empire. Fine. The story is about people within those territories, and how they handle it, and maybe about Galactic Empire officers and soldiers going 'there is no way that the story about them being a threat is right...'.

If the War itself was as important as character building/story telling, you'd have to come up with ways to keep it balance.
i.e Turns out Star Trek weapons and shields, while comparatively crappy against real world targets/materials, seem to work at the same level of Star Wars tech, when used against Star Wars (due to technobabble). Meaning in a fight between an Imperial Star Destroyer and a Galaxy Class ships, they have the same firepower for each corresponding weapon (i.e Phaser strips are equal to a Turbolaser), similar shields and power generation, so it gets down to tactics (Galaxy Classes better a STL speed and maneuverability, vs the Imperials sheer number of weapons on board).

Going outside of Sci-Fi, say in a magic cross-over, you have to make the magic work on each other the same way.

An example I've seen was a Fairy Tail vs Slayers Anime cross over. It's arguable that Lina Inverse could curb-stomb most of the wizards in Fairy Tail. So the Author had them end up crossing spells with Natsu Dragoneel. Natsu ate Lina's fireballs, freaking everyone else. (Natsu can eat fire, and use it to power himself up). The slayers ended up thinking Natsu was a demon. (Ironic given later season of the Anime/books in the Manga).

Unfortunately, alot of 'cross over' authors I've seen do it because they want to see their favorite thing crush something they don't like, or to justify their opinion.

I call that 'bad writing'

[darth_timon]

Oh wow, this thread brings back memories of a Trek vs Wars fanfic I wrote... well, coming up on twenty years ago, that I never finished...

I agree with the thoughts here. I went for the approach of 'the Empire is considerably stronger, but what if they want to take Federation space without a fight?' I had the Imps befriend the Federation, seduce them with promises and misdirection, though to undermine the Empire, I had the Rebels learn of what was going on, and I had some high-ranking Imperials start to question themselves and their actions. Eventually, one of them was going to covertly help the Federation, though not all the Feds would be easily convinced to give up the security of their new Imperial friends.

[Lord Revan]

Unfortunately, alot of 'cross over' authors I've seen do it because they want to see their favorite thing crush something they don't like, or to justify their opinion.

I call that 'bad writing'

Yeah this is the thing I was talking about not doing when I was referring to "equal narrative weight", in stories like that the favored factions will always have significantly greater narrative weight, indeed often the other factions have no real weight or presence in the narrative at all, being relegated satellite factions (of the main faction) in a story where they're suppose a major faction as their sole purpose if to make the favored faction look dominant and often have no real agency of their own.

It also relates to the "hero is as good as the villain they oppose" idea, if the villains are easily defeated, typically in crushing defeat then why should be root for the heroes, no one likes a bully after all. Not mention often in their zeal to bash the other faction they make their favorite faction act out of character, for example UFP would normally not fire the first shot, pursue a war until the enemy is utterly wiped of the map or use excessive force to neutralize a threat yet in Versus fics of the bad kind you see can see them do any of those and sometimes even all 3.

[Composeure]

If the War itself was as important as character building/story telling, you'd have to come up with ways to keep it balance.
i.e Turns out Star Trek weapons and shields, while comparatively crappy against real world targets/materials, seem to work at the same level of Star Wars tech, when used against Star Wars (due to technobabble). Meaning in a fight between an Imperial Star Destroyer and a Galaxy Class ships, they have the same firepower for each corresponding weapon (i.e Phaser strips are equal to a Turbolaser), similar shields and power generation, so it gets down to tactics (Galaxy Classes better a STL speed and maneuverability, vs the Imperials sheer number of weapons on board).

Tbh I'm somewhat confused about what you mean by this. I mean, I understand the general idea here but it seems to me this approach will just upset a lot of people if you merely pretend there is no innate difference. A much better idea would simply just to give some kind of actual advantages (as I noted most fic writers here actually just do this). Otherwise, it might feel a bit like Graham Kennedy's ""writing"" style

Yeah this is the thing I was talking about not doing when I was referring to "equal narrative weight"

Yeah this is important for sure.

[Lord Revan]

it might feel a bit like Graham Kennedy's ""writing"" style

Kennedy's problem was that he pretty much gave all the narrative weight to the Star Trek side of things, it went beyond making the the sides equal and into making the Star Wars side into a paper tiger that has been out in the rain for too long. It also makes the Federation be far too bloodthirsty in the execution of the conflict in question.

A good antagonist for a story must have reasonable chance of achieving their goals what ever they might be, if the protagonist winning is just a formality then there's no sense of accomplishment from it (or worse it makes you feel the antagonists should have been the ones who won). That's why I said earlier that antagonists must be at least equal in power to the protagonists, though they can be even more powerful then antagonists.

[Eternal_Freedom]

As a follow-up to Lord Revan's post, it's also an important element of crossovers to have the main characters on either side act as in-character for them as possible given the odd situation. So, for instance, in Mike's "Conquest" saga, Picard tries to be diplomatic with the Empire, tot he point of going full Leeroy Jenkins on the Romulans to stop their sneak-attack, while there's a Starfleet Admiral willing to cross every line they can to save the Federation.

Both of those are, despite the SW crossover, entirely in-character actions. Having Picard decide to say "fuck it" and attack the Empire as if they were the Borg however would be absurd, and story-breaking.

Obviously the nature of a crossover requires some adjustment to canon characters, but you want to keep their motivations, abilities and personalities as close to canon as possible IMO.

After all, the whole point of fanfic in general, not just crossovers, is "what if x happened instead of y." The point is to tell a story, a good and interesting one. If one side is canonically much weaker/smaller/technologically inferior, then you find reasonable ways to adjust the stronger power (Starcrossed, for instance, has only a small Imperial fleet that's isolated, not the full armada) to make for a compelling story - note reasonable, the "one isolated part of a more powerful faction" trope is quite common, for good reason. It gives both sides a challenge.

Because, again, you want to create an interesting story. Having characters be wildly out of character and one faction so ludicrously powerful relevant to the other just isn't a fun story - it's nerd power-fantasy wish-fulfillment. It's like playing a first person shooter game on God mode.

[Composeure]

it might feel a bit like Graham Kennedy's ""writing"" style

Kennedy's problem was that he pretty much gave all the narrative weight to the Star Trek side of things, it went beyond making the the sides equal and into making the Star Wars side into a paper tiger that has been out in the rain for too long. It also makes the Federation be far too bloodthirsty in the execution of the conflict in question.

A good antagonist for a story must have reasonable chance of achieving their goals what ever they might be, if the protagonist winning is just a formality then there's no sense of accomplishment from it (or worse it makes you feel the antagonists should have been the ones who won). That's why I said earlier that antagonists must be at least equal in power to the protagonists, though they can be even more powerful then antagonists.

Fwiw GK's problem was not so much "greater narrative weight" (though that was the instigating motive) so much as "blatantly lies about everything". Also, on the topic of being out of character, who could forget Palpatine being fooled and beaten by Troi? After force lightning went through her with no effect (again, nod to crossover rules)?

But anyways, yeah I think the idea of "narrative weight" is still important.

After all, the whole point of fanfic in general, not just crossovers, is "what if x happened instead of y." The point is to tell a story, a good and interesting one. If one side is canonically much weaker/smaller/technologically inferior, then you find reasonable ways to adjust the stronger power (Starcrossed, for instance, has only a small Imperial fleet that's isolated, not the full armada) to make for a compelling story - note reasonable, the "one isolated part of a more powerful faction" trope is quite common, for good reason. It gives both sides a challenge.

I suppose this is ome way to go about it. Another might be to make aspects if the story more diplomatically based for example, or even grant reasonable and justified advantages to one side (note that Stars crossed does this as well, on top of reducing the Imperial side).

[Solauren]

Tbh I'm somewhat confused about what you mean by this. I mean, I understand the general idea here but it seems to me this approach will just upset a lot of people if you merely pretend there is no innate difference. A much better idea would simply just to give some kind of actual advantages (as I noted most fic writers here actually just do this). Otherwise, it might feel a bit like Graham Kennedy's ""writing"" style

Okay, imagine this -
The Empire arrives, and goes after the Federation.
The Empire has a massive speed advantage with hyperdrive, and by sheer size.
If you add in the firepower and shield advantage, it's over for the Federation in days.

While technically accurate, that's not much of a story. (Quite frankly, it's amazing that Mike's story is enjoyable based on that).

So, you have to equalize it a bit.

I'd leave the Empire's speed advantage, but pull it back down to what was noted in some of the early novels (150 - 200 light years per hour is still way faster then anything the Federation has), and do something that gives Federation ships a fighting chance in a one on one fight. i.e Technobabble that makes sense.

i.e
Picard: "How come our shields are holding, and are weapons are working, despite being weaker then the Empire?"
Laforge: "Lt. Crusher has a theory on that. Wes?"
Crusher: "It looks like the Empire never developed subspace technology beyond long-range commuication. We're guessing they achieved their Transwarp technology, what they call hyperdrive, without developing alot of the precursor technologies. That's probably why they don't have transporter technology."
Picard: "alright..."
Crusher: "Well, our shields, our weapons, are based on early subspace technology. We know how to shield against it, we know how to armor against it, but the Empire doesn't. That's why our phasers do so well against their ships. If the Empire were to fit a subspace force field generator on one of their ships, with their power technology, we couldn't stop it. All of Starfleet working together couldn't stop it."
Picard: "And that's why our shields work?"
Crusher: "We think so. Their weapons don't affect subspace very well, so they're not nearly as effective against our shields as you'd think. Mind you, once they drop out shields, they rip our ships apart with one shot. Meanwhile, we drop their shields, there armor holds up alot longer."
Picard: "And if they added a subspace component to thier weapons?"
Laforge: "They'd pop our shields like balloon."
Picard: "THen we better hope they don't acquire subspace weapons and shield technology in the near future."


At that point, it's a semi-fair fight, and inline with Star Trek technobabble. I actually had that in an explaination for a fanfic I never got going with, but had plotted out. Basically, the Federation kept pulling various plot-devices we've seen over the various series up, keeping the Empire at bay, while the Empire over-ran the rest of the galaxy.

Eventually, a species we've seen on screen using subspace/phasing weapons joins the Empire willingly in exchange for taking out an enemy nation. They figure out the difference, and the Empire refits their fleet with Subspace Force field generators, and then steam rolls the Federation. (Hint on species - there leader helps them put a boot up the Federations ass)

Example (and final) plot device - The Subspace Invertor used in the high ground. I've always been of the opinion that when a Federation ship goes to Red Alert, the shields go up to full power. If that's the case, the terrorist were still boarding the ship after the Red Alert went up. Meaning the Subspace Invertor/Subspace Rebound Transport bypasses shields.

The Enterprise refits their warheads with that sort of system, and fires them directly into Imperial ships. Photon and Quantum torpedoes going off near the hypermatter core are bad for Imperial ships. That stops the invasion for a time, until the Empire gets subspace force field tech.

[Composeure]

Tbh I'm somewhat confused about what you mean by this. I mean, I understand the general idea here but it seems to me this approach will just upset a lot of people if you merely pretend there is no innate difference. A much better idea would simply just to give some kind of actual advantages (as I noted most fic writers here actually just do this). Otherwise, it might feel a bit like Graham Kennedy's ""writing"" style

Snip

To be honest, I can't say I like the general setup behind this. It still feels like ignoring a huge amount of innate differential in order to haphazardly force an equivalence that doesn't exist. I would much rather some sort of actual balancing elements be introduced as discussed earlier.

Having said that, I want to put in my own example.

Say I want to write a W40K Imperium of Man vs the Star Trek United Federation of Planets, ie say there is a wormhole connecting them or something.

Narratively it would be in character for the IoM to attack the UFP; in fact they would have many reasons to do so. The UFP would be forced to defend, and considering the amount of blind fanaticism of most IoM forces diplomacy would be unlikely.

Now while "pound for pound" most IoM ships are nearly invulnerable against any UFP ship (not to mention ground forces, where it is likely even more in the favor of the former) the UFP can take adavntage of the IoM's (and most W40K factions) very poor industry and reaction times to wage a semi successful guerilla war. Finally, some radical factions within the IoM itself might find at least some of UFP's features appealing and worthy of incorporation, thus causing some of them to want to help the UFP. The fact that it is possible to pass off most of the ""foul xenos"" in the UFP as "mere" mutations or even just minor physiological variances doesn't hurt (note that the majority of "aliens" in ST aren't even technically different species under a strict scientific/evolutionary definition). The fic might end with the UFP being incorporated wholly into the IoM on paper at least, but in reality retaining significant independent ability.

Ps: on Mike's fic, tbh I feel he was actually going (relatively) easy on the UFP at many points. Not counting basically buffing ST factions as well, or that genuninely bizarre twist in the end.

[Lord Revan]

Fwiw GK's problem was not so much "greater narrative weight" (though that was the instigating motive) so much as "blatantly lies about everything".

the "blatantly lies about everything" is the effect of the cause of wanting to give Star Trek side all importance in the narrative in expense of everything else including making a good story. Essentially he didn't start writing the story with the goal of lying about everything, but rather he started it with goal of showing how Star Trek was the superior franchise compared to Star Wars and the lies came because he couldn't do his goal without them at least not in the way he wanted to do it, granted it could also be the case of him actually believing those lies, it's impossible to say as Kennedy has passed away since, so he can't answer any questions.


EDIT:Narrative weight is just a fancy way of saying "importance to/in the narrative".

[Batman]

EDIT:Narrative weight is just a fancy way of saying "importance to/in the narrative".

What potential 'other' meaning could it have?

[Lord Revan]

EDIT:Narrative weight is just a fancy way of saying "importance to/in the narrative".

What potential 'other' meaning could it have?

I can't really think of anything, but the post I replied made wonder if that person thought it might have some other meaning.

[Composeure]

Fwiw the point is that "imbalanced narrative weight" is the cause and the lies were the effect. No real contradiction there.

[Lord Revan]

The reason I give more emphasis on the narrative weight (aka the cause) is that if you strip the identity of both factions and think the Star Trek side as just as the "heroes" and Star Wars side as the "villains", Kennedy's story reveals itself to be really weak regardless where you stand in the vs. debate as the antagonists of the story are so weak they don't even count as speed bump to the protagonists and as I said if defeating the antagonist is a mere formality then your story is bad and needs serious rethinking.

If you want to make a good story (not even just a fanfic or crossover story, but any story) you need something besides boredom for the protagonist to overcome and if the antagonist pose so little threat that they're barely good for killing time your story fails.

Like no one wants to see a professional team crush a local poorly funded amateur sports team, no one wants to see the narrative equivalent either or at least in that story the professional team wouldn't be the heroes of the story.

[Composeure]

Also, to address/clarify earlier points made on ""narrative balance"", I believe that, especially in terms of a crossover story, the key point is not necessarily to arbitrarily enforce ""balance"" but to set up the situation/develop the plot in such a way that both sides can be narratively relevant.

[darth_timon]

I tried to write a fanfic (it's buried in the bowels of the Wayback Machine now) where the Empire chose to subtly conquer the Federation, despite possessing huge technological advantages. The reasoning was that the Empire didn't want to create a potential long-term problem, on top of the Rebellion. If they could manipulate and woo the Federation - and others - into being willing, loyal allies, it would serve the Empire better in the long run. I can't say it was very good.

[Solauren]

I tried to write a fanfic (it's buried in the bowels of the Wayback Machine now) where the Empire chose to subtly conquer the Federation, despite possessing huge technological advantages. The reasoning was that the Empire didn't want to create a potential long-term problem, on top of the Rebellion. If they could manipulate and woo the Federation - and others - into being willing, loyal allies, it would serve the Empire better in the long run. I can't say it was very good.

Conceptually, it's an excellent idea. Have you considered redoing it from scratch?

[darth_timon]

I tried to write a fanfic (it's buried in the bowels of the Wayback Machine now) where the Empire chose to subtly conquer the Federation, despite possessing huge technological advantages. The reasoning was that the Empire didn't want to create a potential long-term problem, on top of the Rebellion. If they could manipulate and woo the Federation - and others - into being willing, loyal allies, it would serve the Empire better in the long run. I can't say it was very good.

Conceptually, it's an excellent idea. Have you considered redoing it from scratch?

I did ponder it, but I've turned away from fan fiction, and have tried my luck at original fiction. Got one book published, got two more I'm currently writing, and a potential fourth idea too, so whilst I'd love to revisit the versus story, I have no idea if I could take that on, on top of everything else.

[Solauren]

Ah.
Did you ever do a plotline for it?

[darth_timon]

Ah.
Did you ever do a plotline for it?

Sort of. I had the notion that Picard and Sisko between them would come to realise what was really going on, thanks to an Imperial admiral who turned against the Empire. They'd begin to build a rebellion within the Milky Way, and meanwhile, the actual Rebels would learn of these events, thanks to Obi-wan's Force ghost sensing a great disturbance. I even had a scene where Vader and Luke have their TESB duel.... in the Engineering section of the Enterprise E! Eventually, Vader would turn to the light, and lead a new rebellion against the Imperials.

[Lord Revan]

One way I could Empire wanting to do "subtle conquest" instead of just throwing their weight around (Palpatine and co don't seem to care about long term problems in either legends or current canon) is if there's a clear bottleneck that could cut local imperial forces from the rest of the Empire. After all a bottleneck might cause said imperial forces to "go native" and cause issues once contact is re-established and Milky Way is far too large a place to risk that.

In essence I don't think Empire would care much about upsetting the locals unless that could cause Empire to prevented from exploiting the region short term, by for example blocking a bottleneck in the supply lines.