[TV Series] Ahsoka Discussion Thread [Unmarked Spoilers!]

[Crazedwraith]

Now Sabine just Force sensitivity for some reason.

I agree with most of what you said apart from this.

My read on this was that Sabine always was force sensitive. She just had very low aptitude, much weaker than usually would be allowed in the order, which is what Huyang said at the start of the series.

If she had literally no force sensitivity there'd be no point in her training at all.

Now her practical use of the force massively leapt between episodes for no reason. She was deflecting blaster bolts and the leap from really slow lightsaber pull to confident enough to boost Ezra across the gap was.. weird.

But it's the force sometimes a leap of faith/the will of the force works wonders, lol.

[Evilchumlee]

I agree with most of what you said apart from this.

My read on this was that Sabine always was force sensitive. She just had very low aptitude, much weaker than usually would be allowed in the order, which is what Huyang said at the start of the series.

If she had literally no force sensitivity there'd be no point in her training at all.

That makes sense more logically, but the series (I thought anyway) seemed to imply that she "learned" the Force.

One other thing that mildly annoys me, which is all due to having to make Post-ROTJ stories WITHOUT using the OT people, or much anyway is that you have Luke out there, scrounging through ruins to dig up scraps of ancient Jedi texts to hopefully learn some stuff about the Jedi Order... meanwhile you have Ahsoka flying around in a literal Jedi starship with a 10,000 year old Jedi Training Droid who seems to pretty much the knowledge of the entire damn archive in his head, who maintains a workshop for building lightsabers, and also Ahsoka herself is a Bonafide Jedi who is ALSO training new Jedi... you would think maybe Ahsoka would help out with that?

There's just several things that bug me a bit about the narrative. Overall I enjoyed the show. It wasn't amazing. It was... fine. Kind of the standard for these SW shows. They're fine. Mando S1 and Andor were great. Outside of that, fine.

This show did suffer from the same formula of Obi-Wan... We have like 8 episodes, but like 6 of them are going to be very slow moving and we aren't going to let you know anything, and then dump everything in the last couple. The series would have been more interesting had they gotten to Peridia in the second or third episode and had been playing cat and mouse with Thrawn for the remainder. It doesn't even change the overall narrative. But we need the mystery box, damn it!

[Jub]

I haven't watched the show but is everything in the show as half-speed and clunky as that walking battle up the stairs? Dudes getting slashed and not falling properly, diving before attacks land, bland camera work, and a blatant lack of effects work on lightsabre slashes. I've seen fan films that have better choreography and cinematography than that.

Is this what Disney Star Wars is?

From what I have seen, mostly yes. The relatively small budget shows in the lightsaber duels and lack of big space battles. We also see this in the Clone Wars flashback episode in which everything was shrouded in smoke. While this could be argued to fit the dreamlike aesthetic, it also shows a small budget.

Andor and to some extent The Mandalorian pull it off because the stakes of both were smaller in the first place.

I haven't even been following those lately. I guess I burnt out on SW in high school and my early 20s and the new stuff just isn't drawing me in. I'd be sad but such is life.

[Adam Reynolds]

My greatest question of the show, and the Mandoverse in general, Thrawn is a big threat. But. Why? Nothing has established why Thrawn is an existential threat to the New Republic and the Imperial Jesus. They just keep saying Thrawn like it's a big deal but seriously, WHY? what has Thrawn actually done to garner such respect, and what resources does he have that will spell doom for the New Republic? He has one old, kinda broken down ship. Yeah he has whatever the cargo is... but... nobody in the Imperial Remnants knows about that. As far we know, Thrawn was a pretty good admiral who got ganked by a Jedi kid and has been gone for well over a decade. I just don't understand why Thrawn is such a big deal, in-universe. It's like the people in-universe read Heir to the Empire and are like, "Oh we need him!"

I think this was actually a mistake in Rebels. Instead of having a new character who could be the main Imperial governor a la Tarkin who is defeated, they instead had to use Thrawn, and in the process made him less of a threat. Thrawn worked as a bad guy in Heir to the Empire because the OT heroes had never faced him before, as he was relegated to the Outer Rim, and so his strategic brilliance had room to shine against a superior enemy in the form of the New Republic.

By contrast, in Rebels Thrawn faced a tiny Rebel Alliance that doesn't give him much room for brilliant strategy. He did show some cleverness in finding the Rebel base, but it wasn't enough to make him as much of a threat in this era.

My read on this was that Sabine always was force sensitive. She just had very low aptitude, much weaker than usually would be allowed in the order, which is what Huyang said at the start of the series.

If she had literally no force sensitivity there'd be no point in her training at all.

Now her practical use of the force massively leapt between episodes for no reason. She was deflecting blaster bolts and the leap from really slow lightsaber pull to confident enough to boost Ezra across the gap was.. weird.

But it's the force sometimes a leap of faith/the will of the force works wonders, lol.

Just based on Rebels, I don't see why she had to be Force sensitive in the true sense. She did train with Kanan to use the Darksaber(with just as much proficiency using Ezra's lightsaber), and there seemed to be a slight emotional element to that as she connected to the Darksaber, but there was no indication that she would ever use the Force outright like a Jedi. Kanan even said so directly when he was training her.

It also hurts her character, because her whole thing was that she was a brilliant warrior and technician who could do just about anything other than using the Force. Giving her Force powers as well took away from her existing accomplishments.

One other thing that mildly annoys me, which is all due to having to make Post-ROTJ stories WITHOUT using the OT people, or much anyway is that you have Luke out there, scrounging through ruins to dig up scraps of ancient Jedi texts to hopefully learn some stuff about the Jedi Order... meanwhile you have Ahsoka flying around in a literal Jedi starship with a 10,000 year old Jedi Training Droid who seems to pretty much the knowledge of the entire damn archive in his head, who maintains a workshop for building lightsabers, and also Ahsoka herself is a Bonafide Jedi who is ALSO training new Jedi... you would think maybe Ahsoka would help out with that?

This is why I say that Ashoka should have just died fighting Vader on Malachor in Rebels, leaving behind a holocron that Sabine can give to Luke and pass on her knowledge indirectly. Her survival means she isn't doing anything to help Luke or the New Jedi Order, and means that she is at least partially responsible for its ultimate failure.

I think Sabine should have worked with Luke to find Ezra and in the process deal with her guilt at having missed most of the war by choice. It would have meant that they would need to recast Luke, but frankly they should do that anyway if they are serious about telling stories in this era. Or just do this as a novel and let the TV series move on to other stories like The Acolyte. I'm not sure I see the point in this doomed era in the first place.

I haven't even been following those lately. I guess I burnt out on SW in high school and my early 20s and the new stuff just isn't drawing me in. I'd be sad but such is life.

This series marks my official burnout on Star Wars, as I didn't even bother finishing it. I'm just tired of the story at this point, especially in that era.

I might bother to show back up for the Acolyte, as the idea of a mystery series about the Sith did seem interesting, but now I sort of doubt it. SW has followed Marvel over the glass cliff, adding diversity only to kill the story in the process.

Another problem is that I haven't read any of the novels in around five years, as it feels pointless because they will easily overwrite them if they want to. They have already done so entirely with the rather good Ahsoka novel and a few other smaller examples.

[Evilchumlee]

I think this was actually a mistake in Rebels. Instead of having a new character who could be the main Imperial governor a la Tarkin who is defeated, they instead had to use Thrawn, and in the process made him less of a threat. Thrawn worked as a bad guy in Heir to the Empire because the OT heroes had never faced him before, as he was relegated to the Outer Rim, and so his strategic brilliance had room to shine against a superior enemy in the form of the New Republic.

By contrast, in Rebels Thrawn faced a tiny Rebel Alliance that doesn't give him much room for brilliant strategy. He did show some cleverness in finding the Rebel base, but it wasn't enough to make him as much of a threat in this era.

It's the #1 issue here, and they really need to do something about it.

We've established now that Thrawn is "The Big Bad". We haven't established WHY. We're told Thrawn returning is a big deal, but not WHY. Oh yeah, he's going to reunite all the scattered Imperial factions. But. *WHY*? And how? What is it about decade-out-of-date Thrawn that is such a massive threat? What has Thrawn to inspire such reverence?

I don't think Rebels using Thrawn was bad, but perhaps it should be reworked a bit so that Thrawn gets zapped out with an entire fleet... then... ok I can see more of a threat. There's a whole ass Imperial fleet of Star Destroyers out there somewhere that would absolutely tip the balance of power. But nope... 1 ship with limited resources, and some Nightsisters.

Even just the rank thing I don't get. Ok he's a Grand Admiral. Gideon's a Moff. Does Grand Admiral outrank Moff? (Although I suspect Gideon's "Moff" status was a post-war thing).

Meanwhile we have seen Brendol Hux, so the nascent First Order is out there... who should already be fairly well set up. Yeah they're trying to keep their forces secret, and I'm pretty sure we are just retconning out Rae Sloane at this point. Although I can kind of see where it might be going, that Hux/The First Order are maybe artificially pumping up Thrawn's return to actually get rid of the other, non-worthy Imperial remnant factions so they can do their thing. Part of the point of the First Order was to be the Best of the Best left after the Contingency, and the all the rest who let the Emperor fall should be eradicated.

So, MAYBE that's kind of the point. Have Thrawn come back, the First Order is pulling strings for a big war, full well knowing the Imperial remnant factions are going to get their asses handed to them by the NR, so the the FO can move on with their plan.

[Galvatron]

It was similar in Legends. The First Order/Sith Eternal would be analogous to the Imperial forces that the reborn Emperor consolidated around Byss. Thrawn was left out of that too and had to make do with the scraps that were left behind.

[Evilchumlee]

It was similar in Legends. The First Order/Sith Eternal would be analogous to the Imperial forces that the reborn Emperor consolidated around Byss. Thrawn was left out of that too and had to make do with the scraps that were left behind.

In the new canon it seems a bit more deliberate. Legends, if I recall, Thrawn was just kind of... lost. I don't think Palpatine specifically excluded him, he just didn't even know he was still around.

In the new canon, the Contingency was meant to wipe out... everything, Rebels and Empire alike. The Rebels needs to die, and those who who let the Empire fall also deserved to die. Only the elite were to keep going. MAYBE Thrawn was an intended member of the First Order, but I think this might be going in the direction of the FO letting Thrawn take over the other Imperial Remnant... to get rid of them and kind of finish off the Contingency.

[Solauren]

The First Order could also be using Thrawn as a distraction.

Any rumors of build up, the Republic contributes to Thrawn (until Thrawn is dealt with). By then, the First Order will have been able to pull out enough that they can keep the rest of the build up in secret.

Kinda of like two executives both stealing money from a company. #1 sets things up to make it look like it was #2, and when #2 takes the fall, #1 has already fleed the country and is busy making more money somewhere else.

[Galvatron]

This must be devastating to the versus debaters.

[bilateralrope]

I'm not sure what else Thrawn could have done here. Despite a fairly genre-savvy plan, our heroes still managed to catch up with him; and they managed to ride through his turbolaser fire. He didn't have a whole lot else to work with; and he just needed a few minutes to get away.

The only part that didn't go his way was Ezra getting onto his ship. Everything else was a victory for him.

My greatest question of the show, and the Mandoverse in general, Thrawn is a big threat. But. Why? Nothing has established why Thrawn is an existential threat to the New Republic and the Imperial Jesus. They just keep saying Thrawn like it's a big deal but seriously, WHY? what has Thrawn actually done to garner such respect, and what resources does he have that will spell doom for the New Republic? He has one old, kinda broken down ship. Yeah he has whatever the cargo is... but... nobody in the Imperial Remnants knows about that. As far we know, Thrawn was a pretty good admiral who got ganked by a Jedi kid and has been gone for well over a decade. I just don't understand why Thrawn is such a big deal, in-universe. It's like the people in-universe read Heir to the Empire and are like, "Oh we need him!"

The big deal about Thrawn is that he out thinks everybody. He studies them until the knows them well enough to predict what they will attempt, then he counters it.

In Rebels, the only times Thrawn lost involved someone using the force in ways completely unknown to him. First with Bendu getting angry, then with the space whales. Even with this episode, the only reason Ezra got aboard the Star Destroyer is because Sabine had telekinetic abilities that Thrawn didn't know about.

What I remember of him in Legends is that he was winning, until his bodyguards shanked him. Because they found out just how badly he was lying to them.


Though I agree that his current resources seem limited. Calling the Eye of Sion down to their position makes me wonder if his Star Destroyer can even reach orbit on its own. He's going to need help from the rest of the imperial remnant.

[Evilchumlee]

The big deal about Thrawn is that he out thinks everybody. He studies them until the knows them well enough to predict what they will attempt, then he counters it.

In Rebels, the only times Thrawn lost involved someone using the force in ways completely unknown to him. First with Bendu getting angry, then with the space whales. Even with this episode, the only reason Ezra got aboard the Star Destroyer is because Sabine had telekinetic abilities that Thrawn didn't know about.

I get that, but from what we have actually seen of Thrawn he's... a pretty good Admiral?

It just seems odd that the Imperial remnants seem to banking everything on a... Pretty good admiral from a decade ago coming back to take over everything and unite all the Imperial remnants for... some reason...

And then even the people in the Republic are like "Oh no! A pretty good Admiral from a decade ago might come back! THIS IS LITERALLY THE END OF THE WORLD. There is no possible way we could fight back against a pretty good admiral!"

Had Thrawn been sitting on a whole ISD battlegroup out there? Ok. Makes more sense. Everyone's resources a strapped and all of a sudden here comes a whole ass Imperial fleet. That's a big deal.

[Gandalf]

Thrawn could be a legitimising figure. People may not like Pellaeon, or Gideon, but they'll fight and die for Thrawn.

[Evilchumlee]

Thrawn could be a legitimising figure. People may not like Pellaeon, or Gideon, but they'll fight and die for Thrawn.

That's the only way I can justify it.

It's almost a rebuke to Legends or the general idea that Thrawn is just... an absolutely dominating amazing admiral.

Thrawn's greatest strength might just be he's... respected, and he's actually, truly, wholeheartedly devoted the Empire... using that word specifically. I think most might know well that Thrawn is fully devoted the Galactic Empire... not any person within it, Palpatine included. Thrawn does not crave power, he craves the stability of the Empire.

Most of the Imperial remnant leaders want "the Empire" back, but they want it back in their own image and with themselves ascending to Emperor.

Thrawn... does not. Thrawn wants to be a Grand Admiral. It's much easier to get various factions to fight under the same banner if you aren't trying to take them over in the process. Thrawn is the neutral third party, he just wants the Empire back. So they can all unite and fight under Thrawn to get the Empire back, and then they can sort out Imperial leadership after the fact.

[Ralin]

So basically a better version of what the old EU tried to do with Admiral Daala uniting the various warlords?

[Solauren]

So basically a better version of what the old EU tried to do with Admiral Daala uniting the various warlords?

That's probably not that accurate.
The Empire in Disney WANTS Thrawn back. Everyone in the hologram meeting seemed in favor of his return and leading them (except Gideon). They also appeared to be willing to work together.

However, none of the Legends-EU Warlords wanted anything to do with Daala. Or each other for that matter. (Unless you count trying to kill each other).

[Ralin]

However, none of the Legends-EU Warlords wanted anything to do with Daala. Or each other for that matter. (Unless you count trying to kill each other).

For awhile she was basically an Imperial celebrity going from warlord to warlord trying to win them over to cooperation and solidarity against the Republic. And she was able to do this pretty much entirely because of her rank and reputation for being apolitical and above internal bickering.

I mean until she got fed up and murdered them all. And was then welcomed as the new supreme commander because all of their surviving subordinates were just as disgusted with the situation as she was.

[Solauren]

Mostly Accurate.

Yes, people let her come and talk to them (and I agree, it was a combination of Celebrity, Rank, but also trying to recruit her), and yes, she managed to get them together for a conference.

But the second they were all in the same room, all that went out the window. One of them even said 'I'm not going to share my glory', and tried to walk about and found he couldn't, and then the arguing started.

That's why she murdered them.

However, the sub-ordinates jumping on board, completely accurate.

[Ralin]

If I remember right this really was a good faith attempt to slam their heads together and try to get them on task before resorting to killing them. She went in fully expecting that was how it would end, but she gave them the chance and still managed to be disgusted by just how dumb and petty they collectively managed to be.

Her recruitment pitch to the subordinates was just an unedited recording of the meeting. I don't think any of them bothered watching the entire thing before deciding the warlords all had it coming.

And people have the gall to say that Darksaber wasn't a good book.

[vakundok]

I opt for the legitimization factor.
Imagine end of world war II, however Germany not defeated as a whole (Hitler dead though), but split into dozens of counties, each well armed, fighting within and across them. Combat strength degrading (but altogether still very relevant) lieutenants or similar appointing themselves to governors or generals. They reach a state where further infighting would mean destruction either by their rivals or by the decreased but still existing Alliance threat. Co existing, far from actually cooperating.
Then one of the larger counties announce that they may have found one of Hitler's original generals in hiding and are working on to return him.
To county leads, rallying behind him would validate their position (even if not the titles), whereas not rallying behind him would put a doubt to the loyality to the "Empire" - kind of suicide in a shark tank.
If that general was any good - the better, but not relevant.

[Solauren]

And people have the gall to say that Darksaber wasn't a good book.

Probably because it dealt with more mature problems than what can typically be solved with a lightsaber.

[Ralin]

And people have the gall to say that Darksaber wasn't a good book.

Probably because it dealt with more mature problems than what can typically be solved with a lightsaber.

Driven home by the fact that someone creates the biggest lightsaber ever and it doesn't even work. Truly we didn't deserve Kevin J Anderson.

[Adam Reynolds]

If I remember right this really was a good faith attempt to slam their heads together and try to get them on task before resorting to killing them. She went in fully expecting that was how it would end, but she gave them the chance and still managed to be disgusted by just how dumb and petty they collectively managed to be.

Her recruitment pitch to the subordinates was just an unedited recording of the meeting. I don't think any of them bothered watching the entire thing before deciding the warlords all had it coming.

And people have the gall to say that Darksaber wasn't a good book.

Darksaber was a nice example of what I call interesting stupid, where there is the core of something interesting there but it is hard to see among the overall bad writing. I sort of liked the idea of a power gap era in which the New Republic is nominally in power but have neither the Jedi or the overt military power to fully wipe out the Empire while also dealing with other military problems like the Hutts trying to build a smaller superlaser vessel that could still threaten worlds. It was foolish that the New Republic struggled with the two simultaneous attacks, and it wasn't like they were coordinating, but you could at least nominally see why characters made the decisions they did.

The real problem was that the overall writing was a step down from the Zahn novels, in which the political reality of the New Republic was much more interesting with a character like Fey'lya and Mon Mothma being reluctant to trust others with political power. Though the B-movie writing was honestly not that much worse than a lot of the Clone Wars series or Rebels.Those just have the advantage of being a somewhat fast paced visual medium that hopefully doesn't give you enough time to think about the bad writing and has mostly well written characters to make up for it. Darksaber by contrast features a slight idiot plot using the OT heroes. It also features Han Solo with the wonderfully written line "You're such a pain."

[Evilchumlee]

That's probably not that accurate.
The Empire in Disney WANTS Thrawn back. Everyone in the hologram meeting seemed in favor of his return and leading them (except Gideon). They also appeared to be willing to work together.

What's alittle weird is... do they want Thrawn back? Gideon doesn't. And we know that in all reality, Hux doesn't. I really feel like they're all just still playing each other, figuring they can let some other sucker back Thrawn, fight the Republic... and then their faction can swoop in and clean up the aftermath.

9 years ABY, Snoke should already be in control of the First Order and messing around with Ben. Snoke/Palpatine certainly doesn't want Thrawn back.

[Batman]

Palpy might because he knows the guy's a serious military asset and has ZERO political ambitions or aptitude.

[Solauren]

I wouldn't be surprised to learn Palpy had a hand in getting Thrawn back. Intergalactic force communication seems right in his power level.

If Thrawn is successful, Palpatine calls him up and says 'well done, Grand Admiral'. Thrawn kneels (Force choking may be required), and Palps sit back on the throne.

If Thrawn fails, the 'First Order' build up is still occurring, and Thrawns campaigns probably took out the incompetents that Palpatine wouldn't want around, so no big loss, and it benefits Palpatine either way.

Really, it's right up there with sending Kenobi after Grevious. If Grevious wins, he probably killed Kenobi. That can be used to bring Anakin to the Dark Side. If Grevious loses, he kept Kenobi away long enough for Palpatine to corrupt Anakin, and Kenobi deal with someone for Palpatine that Palpatine would have wanted gone eventually anyway.

Win-Win for Palpatine.