Israel orders mass 'evacuation' from Northern Gaza, humanitarian crisis certain to ensue

[Juubi Karakuchi]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... the-crisis

Israel-Palestine: Is the two-state solution the answer to the crisis?

Harriet Sherwood

Sat 4 Nov 2023 12.00 GMT

The “day after” the war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza may still be weeks or months away. But it will come. “When this crisis is over, there has to be a vision of what comes next,” said US president Joe Biden recently. “And in our view, it has to be a two-state solution.”

Against a backdrop of repeated cycles of violence and a military occupation lasting more than half a century, diplomats and analysts agree that lasting peace must follow the bloodiest fighting between Israelis and Palestinians for decades.

The two-state solution to the bitter conflict that has beset the region for almost a century – dividing the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean to carve out two independent, sovereign Israeli and Palestinian states existing side by side – has repeatedly been endorsed by world leaders.


But it has proved impossible for Israel and the Palestinians to reach an agreement. And, since talks brokered by John Kerry, then the US secretary of state, collapsed in 2014, and as Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem have proliferated, the consensus has been that the two-state solution is dead.

That view has been reinforced by opinion polls conducted shortly before Hamas’s deadly assault on Israeli citizens on 7 October. In September, a Pew Research Center survey found that only 35% of Israelis believed “a way can be found for Israel and an independent Palestinian state to coexist peacefully” – a decline of 15 percentage points since 2013.

And a Gallup poll found that just 24% of Palestinians living in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem supported a two-state solution, down from 59% in 2012. Young Palestinians were significantly less enthusiastic than their parents.

Can the two-state solution be revived? And, given the continuing war, regional tensions and settlers’ presence in what would be a Palestinian state, what might it look like?

“There are no other viable alternatives,” said Yossi Mekelberg, an associate fellow at the Chatham House thinktank. “The two-state solution is the least bad option to enable both Israelis and Palestinians to fulfil their political, civil and human rights.”

What is lacking on both sides is leadership and political will. Both sides need to wake up after this horrible war
Yossi Mekelberg, analyst

Yossi Beilin, a former Israeli peace negotiator, said: “It is the only solution – there is no realistic competition.”

But according to Aaron David Miller, an adviser on the Middle East to both Democratic and Republican administrations, “we have to distinguish between aspiration and reality”. He also warned: “The odds are very, very low. It’s essentially mission impossible.”

There are numerous obstacles in the way of a two-state solution, said Miller, not least that, in the immediate aftermath of the war, “we will be left with two deeply traumatised societies”.

Israel’s far-right government is viscerally opposed to the very idea of an independent Palestinian state, and its leader, Benjamin Netanyahu, has blocked progress on the issue for many years. Few expect him to survive as prime minister once the war is over, but there is no obvious pro-peace alternative in waiting.

The Palestinian Authority, led by Mahmoud Abbas, who has been largely absent from the stage in the past month, is ineffectual and lacks credibility among the public. Abbas is 87, and his four-year term as president has so far lasted nearly 19 years.

His only plausible successor, Marwan Barghouti, a senior leader of the Fatah political faction and a hero to many Palestinians, has been in an Israeli prison for 21 years, serving five life sentences for murder.

“What is lacking on both sides is leadership and political will. Both sides need to wake up after this horrible war and find new leadership,” said Mekelberg.

In the US, traditionally the driver of the Middle East peace process, Biden’s energies will inevitably be absorbed in fighting to retain his presidency over the next 12 months. If he loses to Donald Trump, the chances of reviving the two-state solution are close to nil.

Arab states, which would be crucial players in any process, may be restrained by fury among their populations at huge numbers of civilian deaths and a desperate humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

And even if Israel, the Palestinians, the US and Arab countries were determined to push ahead with a new peace process, the key challenges of any deal – borders and Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the future of Jerusalem, the “right of return” of Palestinian refugees and their descendants, security and Gaza – are still on the table.

Yet the broad principles of an agreement have been accepted for many years, said Hiba Husseini, a Palestinian lawyer based in Ramallah. “We know what a two-state solution looks like.”

She and Beilin have produced a proposal for an Israeli-Palestinian confederation – a “cohabitation of two sovereign states” – to address a number of the details.

Some Jewish settlements close to the pre-1967 “green line” – the armistice agreement line drawn in 1949 at the end of the Arab-Israeli war, and that followed Israel’s declaration of a state in 1948 – would be incorporated into Israel, with compensatory land swaps for a new Palestinian state; a principle broadly accepted by all parties.

Under the confederation plan, Israelis living in settlements deeper in the West Bank would be able to choose whether to relocate to homes inside Israel or stay where they are as Israeli citizens who are permanent residents of Palestine, agreeing to abide by the new state’s laws. A comparable number of Palestinian citizens would be able to move to Israel on the same terms.

The Old City of Jerusalem, home to important Muslim, Jewish and Christian holy sites, would become an “open city”, jointly administered by both nations. The open city would later be extended to encompass all Jewish and Muslim neighbourhoods of Jerusalem.

Gaza “cannot be left out” of a future Palestinian state, said Husseini. There will need to be land corridors between the West Bank and Gaza to allow access, but “there are already blueprints for those”.

Under those existing blueprints, a Palestinian state would have a police force but not an army or air force; and a symbolic number of descendants of Palestinian refugees would be permitted to return to live in Israel.

Public support
The principle of two states living side by side is “not only possible but critical”, said Husseini. “Before this war, there was a policy of ‘managing’ the conflict. It is now clear that it was a failed policy.”

Meanwhile, the one-state solution has gained traction, particularly among Palestinians and their supporters, in the absence of any moves towards a Palestinian state alongside an Israeli state.

The idea is essentially for one democratic state to exist on the land that is now Israel and the Palestinian territories, with equal votes for all. But it would inevitably mean the end of the Jewish state, as Jews became a minority within the single state’s population.

The numbers are already unequal. According to the Israeli bureau of statistics last year, Jews were 74% of the Israeli population, at 7 million people. The Arab population of Israel was 21%, or almost 2 million people. This year, the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics put the population of the West Bank and Gaza at almost 5.5 million people. When added to the 2 million Palestinians living in Israel, the total is nearly 7.5 million – more than Israel’s Jewish population. And the Palestinian population is significantly younger and therefore growing faster.

One state is unrealistic, said Yehuda Shaul, co-founder of Ofek, an independent Israeli thinktank dedicated to advancing a two-state solution. “Can you see a reality in which Israeli Jews give up their demographic hegemony within the green line, and decide to share the land and become a minority?”

But, he added: “Do I believe that two states are around the corner? No. Do I believe that the national project of the state of Israel is to prevent a two-state outcome? Yes.”

Peace will not come by itself; it has to be built. The two-state solution remains the only viable one we know
Josep Borrell, EU foreign policy chief
The Palestinian public would soon re-embrace a two-state solution, said Husseini. “Opinion on the street responds to what is happening. The mood reflects the moment, and now the moment is very dark. But if we have a horizon where we can see an endgame, the mood will change.”

The EU has said it is “ready to contribute to reviving a political process on the basis of the two-state solution”. It has called for a peace conference to be held within six months of the end of the war.

“Peace will not come by itself; it has to be built,” said Josep Borrell, the EU’s foreign policy chief. “The two-state solution remains the only viable one we know. And if we only have one solution, we must put all our political energy into achieving it.”

Most observers agree that fresh and courageous political leadership on both sides is needed. “Both sides will have to undergo reckonings,” said Miller. “What’s needed is a [Nelson] Mandela and a [FW] de Klerk, or somebody close. Leaders may yet emerge – look at [Ukrainian president Volodymyr] Zelenskiy.”

According to Beilin, with leadership and political will, a framework agreement could be reached relatively quickly: “Not weeks, but a year is possible,” he said. Public support would follow.

He added: “In the runup to Oslo [the historic 1993 peace accords], there was total opposition to any contact with the PLO [Palestine Liberation Organisation]. Once the agreement was signed, there was huge support.

“And I believe that, if an agreement could be reached after this war, there will also be big support.”

There's a link to the Confederation plan document in the article. Here it is again for convenience.
https://www.monmouth.edu/news/documents ... glish.pdf/

I may be hoping for too much. But the idea is interesting, and may prove a workable compromise between 1 and 2-state solutions. If Netanyahu is forced from power (as looks quite likely), then it might at least be discussed.

[Solauren]

Been suggested before, and it never pans out due.

qv
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_map_for_peace

[Juubi Karakuchi]

It certainly won't happen while Netanyahu is in charge. On the other hand, it does look like he's going to be forced out; if only for the screwup that started the current crisis.

The big question is what happens after that. The Knesset has 120 seats, with 61 needed for a majority. The parties work out as follows;

Netanyahu coalition (pre-crisis) - 64 seats
Likud - 32
Shas - 11,
Religious Zionist - 7
United Torah Judaism - 7
Otzma Yehudit - 6
Noam - 1

Opposition - 56 seats
Yesh Atid - 24
National Unity - 12
Ysrael Biteinu - 6
United Arab List - 5
Hadash-Taal - 5
Labor - 4

National Unity is part of the current coalition, but only for the duration of the crisis. If they withdraw once things calm down, that leaves Netanyahu with only a 4 seat majority; on top of his other problems.

The best we can hope for, I think, is that Netanyahu falls, a snap election follows, and that the hard right as alienated enough of the Israeli public to let Yesh Atid - led by Yair Lapid - form a government. Considering how far Netanyu has pushed Israeli society, and how badly he's fouled up over the current situation, it's not inconceivable.

[Elfdart]

Max Blumenthal asked a State Department spokesman to explain how Russia and China are accused of genocide, but Israel isn't -even though Israel has slaughtered more civilians in a month in Gaza than Russia has killed in Ukraine in twenty months. The spokesman tried to give a coherent answer, but couldn't:

LINK

[LadyTevar]

"I'm calling from Israeli Intelligence, you're about to be bombed"

The call to Mahmoud Shaheen came at dawn.

It was Thursday 19 October at about 06:30, and Israel had been bombing Gaza for 12 days straight.

He'd been in his third-floor, three-bedroom flat in al-Zahra, a middle-class area in the north of the Gaza Strip. Until now, it had been largely untouched by air strikes.

He'd heard a rising clamour outside. People were screaming. "You need to escape," somebody in the street shouted, "because they will bomb the towers".

As he left his building and crossed the road, looking for a safe place, his phone lit up.

It was a call from a private number.

"I'm speaking with you from Israeli intelligence," a man said down the line, according to Mahmoud.

That call would last more than an hour - and it would be the most terrifying call of his life.

The article goes on to describe how al-Zahra had dozens of apartment buildings bombed flat in a single night, with two Israeli agents talking to dentist Mahmoud Shaheen all night long, having him be the voice of the evacuation.

I am wonder WTF IDF decided all these apartment buildings *had* to be bombed, there's no real explanation for it, but I am also somewhat molified that these two men took the chance and time to call ahead and get as many people out as they could, via Mamoud's cellphone.
It still leaves FAR MORE QUESTIONS than answers.

[Ralin]

I am wonder WTF IDF decided all these apartment buildings *had* to be bombed, there's no real explanation for it,
...
It still leaves FAR MORE QUESTIONS than answers.

Do you believe the Israeli military is completely making shit up when they say they needed to bomb an apartment complex/hospital/refugee camp/ambulance because there were weapons and fighters and Hamas command outposts there or do you think they just have a horribly low threshold for whether they're sure enough to decide it's likely enough to do it? Behavior that doesn't make sense in one case is more understandable in the other.

[Zaune]

Do you believe the Israeli military is completely making shit up when they say they needed to bomb an apartment complex/hospital/refugee camp/ambulance because there were weapons and fighters and Hamas command outposts there or do you think they just have a horribly low threshold for whether they're sure enough to decide it's likely enough to do it?

That could honestly depend on who happens to be on duty in the ops room at the time. And I wouldn't be surprised if there are elements in the IDF who are leaking information to whatever's left of the civil authorities in Palestine in an attempt to reduce collateral casualties.

[LadyTevar]

Do you believe the Israeli military is completely making shit up when they say they needed to bomb an apartment complex/hospital/refugee camp/ambulance because there were weapons and fighters and Hamas command outposts there or do you think they just have a horribly low threshold for whether they're sure enough to decide it's likely enough to do it?

That could honestly depend on who happens to be on duty in the ops room at the time. And I wouldn't be surprised if there are elements in the IDF who are leaking information to whatever's left of the civil authorities in Palestine in an attempt to reduce collateral casualties.

I remember the "Weapons of Mass Destruction" that got the US into the now 20+yr "War on Terror" in the MidEast. No, they werent really there, but EVERYONE THOUGHT THERE WERE, so of COURSE we had to go in.

I can see the IDF could be working under similar conditions.

I'm of two minds about how the Intelligence went about trying to save people. I know they cant' stand up and say "NO, I refuse", but it's still a whole lot to expect one man with a cellphone to save a whole block of people who have the bad luck to live in apartments about to be flattened.
So, I don't know whether to be grateful they tried, or resentful they didn't do more to stop it.

[Zwinmar]

The whole WMD it was actually very likely they were that as Saddam did gas his own people: Halabja Massacre . I personally think that the IDF does not have the same conditions. This is not an excuse for the lies et. al. that went on and certainly am not making any excuses for the IDF.

[Gandalf]

I remember the "Weapons of Mass Destruction" that got the US into the now 20+yr "War on Terror" in the MidEast. No, they werent really there, but EVERYONE THOUGHT THERE WERE, so of COURSE we had to go in.

Who is the everyone to whom you refer?

[KraytKing]

Zwinmar, apparently.

I assume the bombing of civilian buildings is simply an effort to reduce the defensive advantage of urban warfare. Tanks are vulnerable to top attack? Reduce the number of vantage points enabling top attack. Fewer rooms for the enemy to hide in means fewer rooms to clear. Piles of rubble do, of course, have their defensive advantages, but they are reduced.

Difficult to tell how the fighting is going. The IDF so far seems to be accomplishing tactical objectives fairly easily, but they also haven't done the hard part yet. Hamas videos are heavily propagandized, with explosions edited in to imply fiery destruction of tanks. Long term, I do wonder what the Israeli plan is; they can't anticipate a major occupation, not with their manpower, and a lengthy siege might be similarly difficult. A big showing of the flag, then? Flatten a city, kill a few thousand enemy combatants and twice as many noncombatants just to make a point, then leave?

Iran is an interesting case. Popular support for the theocracy has been eroding for a long time, but it seems to be accelerating. The events of the last few years haven't been kind to Iran. Could there be major political upheaval? Is there a limit to how much Tehran will shake the boat, with their own populace untamed? I find the latter likely. Threats of intervention are most likely just sabre rattling, although I imagine that conclusion is popular. Given US strategic interests and allies, I think the most likely route to American intervention would be popular upheaval in Jordan.

The amount of death is appalling. God, what a tragedy. And it's a greater tragedy because I can't in good conscience wish either side to stop: Israel has a right to enforce security, faced with a self-proclaimed genocidal threat, and Hamas and the Palestinians at large have every right to distrust Israel. Of the two, I agree with most of the US political left that Israel, being the more powerful by far, should generally shoulder the responsibility and end the war. But can they?

I can only weep.

[Elfdart]

The funny thing about IDF boot-lickers is that they are always in the humiliating position of telling lies on behalf of Israel's crimes against humanity that would cause the IDF, Mossad, Shin Bet and other interested parties to cringe. The Forty Beheaded Babies? Didn't happen. Throwing kids into a baker's oven? Plagiarized from an atrocity perpetrated during the first Nakba.
The only golden oldies these fluffers haven't played (at least not yet) are Yellow Rain and the one about Putin issuing boner pills to his troops. Oh wait, that was Khadafi! Next, they'll dig up Zombie Ronald Reagan to swear Hamas is massing their troops near Harlingen, Texas.


For a month now, IDF fanwhores have shrieked hysterically at any mention of this being a second Nakba. Namely, the siege and periodic massacres in Gaza are meant to make life such a hell on earth that Palestinians will flee to other countries, at which point Israel will plant their squatters in the newly-created "wilderness". Once again, they're swearing to the innocence of someone who not only admits that yes indeed they ARE ethnically cleansing Gaza.

LINK

Israeli Minister Admits Military Is Carrying Out ‘Nakba’ Against Gaza’s Palestinians
Story by Sanjana Karanth •
15h

An Israeli cabinet official has publicly admitted to the government’s ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, saying on television over the weekend that the country is “rolling out the Gaza Nakba.”

On Saturday, security cabinet member and Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter sat for a television interview with an Israeli news network. Dichter is part of the right-wing nationalist Likud party, which Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu chairs.

“We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba,” Dichter said when asked if the recent images of northern Gaza residents evacuating south are comparable to images of the 1948 Nakba.

“From an operational point of view, there is no way to wage a war ― as the IDF seeks to do in Gaza ― with masses between the tanks and the soldiers,” he continued, according to a translation of the interview by Haaretz.

The Nakba, which in Arabic means “catastrophe,” refers to the mass displacement and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. Palestine was considered a multi-ethnic society until the tension between Arab and Jewish people rose as a result of both Jews migrating to flee persecution in Europe, as well as the Zionist movement attempting to establish a Jewish ethnostate in Palestine.

The tension escalated to war in 1948 after the UN General Assembly’s resolution trying to partition Palestine into two states was rejected a year earlier. The war resulted in the permanent displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians by the newly formed Israeli forces.

Despite the UN calling for Palestinian refugee return and property restitution, Israel has continued to deny the rights of Palestinians and carry out an apartheid for 75 years. The anniversary of the Nakba serves as a painful acknowledgment of the generational and ongoing trauma that Palestinians face both on their occupied land and outside the region.

“Gaza Nakba 2023,” Dichter said. “That’s how it’ll end.”

When later asked if labeling the current forced evacuation a Nakba means Palestinians won’t be able to return to Gaza City, Dichter said: “I don’t know how it’ll end up happening since Gaza City is one-third of the Strip ― half the land’s population but a third of the territory.”

Israel’s monthlong siege on Gaza has killed more than 11,000 people and displaced millions. Israeli forces told Palestinians to evacuate northern Gaza to avoid being killed, though several areas in the southern region have also been bombed.

On Friday, Netanyahu said that he wants “full security control” of Gaza with the power to “enter whenever we want” to kill who Israel perceives to be enemies.

Since Washington DC is also Israeli-occupied territory (as Fulbright described the town decades ago), this ethnic cleansing isn't going to stop with Gaza. The West Bank is next followed by any other acreage with Palestinians living on it. The good people of Dearborn Michigan should watch out!

[LadyTevar]

WHO says Gaza Hospitals are becoming Cemeteries

Summary

• Gaza's biggest hospital, Al-Shifa, is "nearly a cemetery", the World Health Organization warns, with bodies piling up inside and outside
  
  Dozens of premature babies and 45 kidney patients needing dialysis can't be treated properly due to a lack of power, a UN spokesperson says
  
  Fighting has been raging close to the hospital in Gaza City in recent days, with severe fuel shortages affecting treatment
  
  Israel has accused Hamas of having a command and control centre under the hospital - which the facility and Hamas deny
  
  Israel began striking Gaza after the Hamas attacks on 7 October, in which 1,200 people were killed and more than 200 taken hostage
  
  The Hamas-run health ministry says more than 11,000 people have been killed in Gaza since - of whom more than 4,500 were children

[KraytKing]

Well, turns out the hospital really did have an HQ underneath, with some circumstantial evidence that hostages might have been kept there. Arms and munitions were recovered, indicating that Hamas was storing explosive hazards, in a war zone, directly beneath a hospital full of their own civilians. US intelligence has also corroborated the Israeli claim that Hamas was stealing fuel supplied to the hospital.

Also, kind of fucking obvious. Fighting can only "rage" if both sides are trying--the hospital can only be the site of protracted fighting if both Israel and Hamas decide to fight over it. Why else would Hamas want to hold onto such a negative asset as combat-ineffective civilians? For a military with no long-term prospects, they are not an asset. So there must be some military reason they are sticking close to the hospital, which is now revealed: they were staging troops there, hidden where Israeli bombs wouldn't fall.

I would ordinarily have argued against the claim of ethnic cleansing. Yes, Palestinians are being forced out of their territory. But, that's probably for the best in the short term--their territory is a war zone, staying would mean dying. How do we distinguish between ethnic cleansing and a prudent measure during an invasion? A good indicator would be to look at the political sphere, and yep, it's an ethnic cleansing.

Every piece of news just makes both sides look worse, and everyone is just fucking the innocent inhabitants of the region deliberately. Israeli civilians are being coerced by Netanyahu into a reactionary, fascist government. Palestinians are being shot by the IDF and Hamas both, and used by Hamas as living shields and then political props once they die. The Gaza Strip is handicapped in its ability to gain international recognition and support by virtue of the Hamas government, which is actively part of the plan by Israel. The only hope is for cooler heads on both sides to come to power, but that is the opposite of the trend in times of war.

[madd0c0t0r2]

Well, turns out the hospital really did have an HQ underneath, with some circumstantial evidence that hostages might have been kept there. Arms and munitions were recovered, indicating that Hamas was storing explosive hazards, in a war zone, directly beneath a hospital full of their own civilians. US intelligence has also corroborated the Israeli claim that Hamas was stealing fuel supplied to the hospital.

Also, kind of fucking obvious. Fighting can only "rage" if both sides are trying--the hospital can only be the site of protracted fighting if both Israel and Hamas decide to fight over it. Why else would Hamas want to hold onto such a negative asset as combat-ineffective civilians? For a military with no long-term prospects, they are not an asset. So there must be some military reason they are sticking close to the hospital, which is now revealed: they were staging troops there, hidden where Israeli bombs wouldn't fall.

I would ordinarily have argued against the claim of ethnic cleansing. Yes, Palestinians are being forced out of their territory. But, that's probably for the best in the short term--their territory is a war zone, staying would mean dying. How do we distinguish between ethnic cleansing and a prudent measure during an invasion? A good indicator would be to look at the political sphere, and yep, it's an ethnic cleansing.

Every piece of news just makes both sides look worse, and everyone is just fucking the innocent inhabitants of the region deliberately. Israeli civilians are being coerced by Netanyahu into a reactionary, fascist government. Palestinians are being shot by the IDF and Hamas both, and used by Hamas as living shields and then political props once they die. The Gaza Strip is handicapped in its ability to gain international recognition and support by virtue of the Hamas government, which is actively part of the plan by Israel. The only hope is for cooler heads on both sides to come to power, but that is the opposite of the trend in times of war.

Where you seeing this? Nothing confirmed on gaurdian or BBC at the moment

[Formless]

Hey, could you, you know, cite a fucking source for a change, KraytKing? Because its getting annoying that I know basically which media outlets everyone else is reading but not you. For all I know you are reading Israeli media, which I wouldn't trust for a second.

[Ralin]

it. Why else would Hamas want to hold onto such a negative asset as combat-ineffective civilians? For a military with no long-term prospects, they are not an asset.

Desire to prevent the Israelis from murdering the people in said hospital, some of whom are likely injured Hamas soldiers?

So there must be some military reason they are sticking close to the hospital, which is now revealed: they were staging troops there, hidden where Israeli bombs wouldn't fall.

Why on earth would Hamas of all groups expect hiding troops in a hospital to stop the Israeli military from bombing them? If anything that makes it more likely!

[LadyTevar]

KRAYT, Provide a Source for the "HQ Beneath Hospital" statement please.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

IDF shows alleged footage of Hamas tunnels under children's hospital, but is it accurate?

The Israel Defence Force (IDF) say they have found a Hamas tunnel leading to a children’s hospital in Gaza City – where they allege hostages and armoury have been held since the October 7 massacre.

In footage posted by IDF on Monday, their spokesperson Daniel Hagari said it was “clear evidence” the terror organisation had been operating from the hospital basement.

The implications of such a discovery would be instrumental in the Israel-Hamas war.

Israel has faced global condemnation for their attacks on hospitals and civilians in Gaza. Under international law, hospitals are given special protections during war – they must not be targeted.

But, hospitals lose those protections if combatants use them to hide fighters or store weapons, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

Since posting, the IDF has been faced with various questions over the validity of its claims, such as the video being described as “raw footage” – despite having several edits and blur effects added.

ITV News has analysed the video and posed these questions to the IDF – who are yet to respond.

Does the tunnel lead to the hospital?

Daniel Hagari begins the video by claiming IDF discovered a tunnel entrance close to the home of one of the senior terrorists in charge of the raids into Israel.

He says Israel were carrying out investigations in the area after coming under fire by Hamas militants.

The location, he says, is 200 yards from Rantissi Hospital, a paediatric hospital with a speciality in treating cancer patients.

The IDF spokesperson says a robot was sent down the 20-meter drop to the tunnel, where it discovered a bulletproof door.

He says this is “clear evidence the hospital direction is connected” – however does not show any footage proving this claim.

When posting the video to social media, it was accompanied by a caption saying it showed Hagari “walk through one of one of Hamas' subterranean terrorist tunnels - only to exit in Gaza's Rantisi hospital on the other side”.

However, Hagari does not travel through the tunnel in the footage posted.

In a separate interview with CNN embedded journalists, it shows that he walked to the hospital and entered the basement through a huge hole in the wall, created by Israeli military attacks.

IDF have not been able to substantiate their claim of the tunnel being linked to the hospital – in their CNN interview Hagari also admitted the IDF were “investigating a link”.

Another separate video posted on social media shows what's claimed to be IDF uncovering Hamas infrastructure in the Rantisi hospital.

Without travelling through the tunnel, Hagari shows the basement of the hospital, where he says IDF discovered “operational gear” used by Hamas. It includes explosive vests, bombs, automatic rifles, and rocket grenades.

He says hostages were being held in the basement – “proven” by a makeshift bathroom and kitchen.

Hamas has repeatedly denied that its fighters hide under hospitals, as have Gazan health officials and hospital directors.

Hagari then shows a motorbike which he claims was used in the October 7 attack, and to transport hostages back to the hospital.

He also shows baby nappies and a small bottle, alongside a woman’s clothing on a chair with a small rope around it – which he says proves Hamas had been keeping hostages here. DNA testing is still ongoing.

Mohammed Zarqout, who has responsibility for all of Gaza’s hospitals, has refuted the video’s claims, saying the hospital basement had been used as a shelter for women and children, as well as being the location of the pharmacy and some of the hospital’s administrative offices before rainwater made it “impossible” to use.

Zarqout also told CNN that medical staff had been forced to leave the hospital by Israeli soldiers, and had been unable to take all the patients with them when they left.

Another separate video posted on social media shows what's claimed to be IDF uncovering Hamas infrastructure in the Rantisi hospital.

Again - there is no footage of the alleged tunnel. But this video shows a lot more signs of the basement being used - military equipment surrounded by mess and rubble, and piles of cash.

It poses the question: if this space was being used for hostages why did Hagari not show it?

What appears to be central to Hagari’s video evidence of Hamas hospital operations is what he claims is a list of names and dates stuck to the basement wall.

He says this documents Hamas terrorists’ shifts in guarding Israeli hostages. This is in fact days of the week, written in Arabic.

ITV News has requested IDF clarify what was meant by his statement.

Hagari said forensic experts were examining the scenes, and all of what he claims as evidence was based on IDF intelligence.

However, IDF is still yet to support these claims beyond the video.

[Elfdart]

CNN ran footage on an IDF trooper inside a hospital basement. He found a calendar in Arabic. Oh, and an elevator shaft: Only Hamas uses calendars and elevators:



And here I thought Ben Shapiro was just a half-wit who "debates" teenagers and after some choice editing, declares himself the winner.

Muhammad Shehada does a point-by-point debunking of this hysterical bullshit.

The whole issue of whether Hamas uses tunnels, sewers, basements and other underground structures the way the Vietcong used tunnels and the partisans in Warsaw (in both the 1943 and 1944 uprisings) used sewers is rather silly. No doubt they do*. There's also no doubt that in a densely populated ghetto like Gaza, any and all tunnels are going to right next to large numbers of civilians. There's also no doubt whatsoever that anyone using this as a justification for bombing the living shit out these tunnels, killing nearby non-combatants by the bushel to get at a handful of Hamas fighters is if not an outright Nazi, close enough that they might as well be one.

* As it turns out, it was Israel that built the concrete bunker underneath the Al-Shifa Hospital in the first place..

The Israelis are so sure about the location of the Hamas bunker, however, not because they are trying to score propaganda points, or because it has been repeatedly mentioned in passing by Western reporters—but because they built it. Back in 1983, when Israel still ruled Gaza, they built a secure underground operating room and tunnel network beneath Shifa hospital—which is one among several reasons why Israeli security sources are so sure that there is a main Hamas command bunker in or around the large cement basement beneath the area of Building 2 of the Hospital, which reporters are obviously prohibited from entering.

One thing that really needs to die in a fire is the notion of "human shields". No one is stupid enough to believe that having civilians close to military targets ever actually shields them from attack. This is true whether the attacker is a relatively civilized country or one carrying out genocide. Another reason to flush the idea is that it's mostly plagiarized from Fascist propaganda spewed by Mussolini's regime to justify attacks of Red Cross hospitals in Ethiopia. Nicola Perugini has some vintage illustrations from the period:






Aside from the fact that Il Duce had better artists to flack for his crimes against humanity (making his Fascist legions look like the Campbell's Soup Kids is an interesting artistic choice), there's little difference between the pics above and the political cartoons depicting Palestinians as creatures of the night. There's even the accusation that relief workers are in cahoots with the Ethiopians -I mean, Palestinians: the last illustration refers to the "Negro-loving Red Cross" and shows an artillery shell disguised as an oxygen tank. War whores and genocidaires need to come up with new material because only complete fucktards and sadist are buying the old bullshit.

[Ralin]

If Hamas's tunnel network does connect to a hospital isn't it more likely that it's used to allow wounded Hamas soldiers to be moved to and from there without being murdered (or arrested, I guess) by the Israeli military than that they're using the hospital as a command center or armory?

Even if they were, isn't that the sort of thing where the Israelis should send troops in to take control of the hospital?

[LadyTevar]

BBC LIVE -- IDF is Searching Gaza's Largest Hospital

We've reported a lot of eyewitness accounts of the situation at the Al-Shifa hospital but here's a reminder of what the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) says are the aims of its "precise and targeted" operation at Gaza's largest hospital:

The IDF says its troops are scanning the complex for Hamas infrastructure, explosive devices and "terrorist means" at the facility

The forces sent in include translators and medical teams, who it says have undergone "specified training to prepare for this complex and sensitive environment"

It says they have entered the hospital with "the intent that no harm is caused" to the civilians which it accuses Hamas of using as "human shields"
The operation was preceded by efforts to evacuate people from Al-Shifa, the IDF says

It adds it also maintained regular dialogue with hospital authorities - and informed them ahead of time about the entrance of its forces into the compound

The IDF published a video of its troops delivering medical aid including incubators, baby food and medical supplies to the hospital

BBC -- What We Don't Know About IDF Raid On Hospital

The Israeli military has entered Gaza's main hospital in what it describes as a "targeted operation against Hamas".

An eyewitness at Al-Shifa hospital told the BBC troops moved in overnight and were interrogating people.

Israel has long accused Hamas of having a command centre under Al-Shifa and the US has said its intelligence backs this up, but Hamas has denied it.

UN humanitarian chief Martin Griffiths said he was "appalled" by the raid and that "hospitals are not battlegrounds".

Meanwhile, the World Health Organization said it was "extremely worried" for patients and staff, with whom it had lost contact.

The BBC has been speaking to a journalist and a doctor inside the hospital to try to find out what is happening there, while the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have also been providing updates. We cannot independently confirm any of the accounts.

[KraytKing]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/13/politics ... index.html

A US official with knowledge of American intelligence says Hamas has a command node under the Al-Shifa hospital, uses fuel intended for it and its fighters regularly cluster in and around Gaza’s largest hospital.

The information comes after comments made Sunday by a top White House official that Hamas is using hospitals and civilian facilities.

“You can see even from open-source reporting that Hamas does use hospitals, along with a lot of other civilian facilities, for command-and-control, for storing weapons, for housing its fighters,” National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said on CNN’s State of the Union. “Without getting into this specific hospital or that specific claim, this is Hamas’ track record, both historically and in this conflict.”

Israel has insisted it is justified in taking military action around the hospital, despite criticism from the UN and other international organizations. The Israeli government announced it has created evacuation corridors and called for the removal of civilians, in addition to providing fuel.

Hamas and hospital officials have denied the accusation that the hospital is being used as a command center.

The news that US intelligence assessments appear to back Israel’s claims comes as global attention is focused on the fighting around the hospital and reports suggest several patients, including children, have died in what the hospital’s director has called “catastrophic” conditions.

“There is no more water, food, milk for children and babies… the situation in the hospital is catastrophic,” the director of the medical center, Dr. Muhammad Abu Salmiya, told CNN on Monday.

But Israel has insisted that patients can be evacuated from the hospital.

“There’s no reason why we just can’t take the patients out of there, instead of letting Hamas use it as a command center for terrorism, for the rockets that they fire against Israel, for the terror tunnels that they use to kill Israeli civilians,” Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in an interview with CNN’s Dana Bash on State of the Union.

Netanyahu added that Israel is “treading carefully when it comes to hospitals. But we’re also not going to give immunity to the terrorists.”

CIA declined to comment. CNN has not seen the intelligence cited by the US official.

Dr. Munir Al-Bursh, the director-general of the Hamas-controlled health ministry, said Monday that medical staff at Al-Shifa had refused an IDF evacuation order because they fear approximately 700 patients will die if they are left behind.

“The problem is not the doctors, it’s the patients. And if they are left behind, they will die, and if they are transferred, they will die on the way, this is the problem, we are talking about 700 patients,” Al-Bursh told CNN on Monday.

“There has been no response until now by the doctors, but some of the displaced people and families have already been leaving.”

The World Health Organization says Al-Shifa has been without power for three days. “Regrettably, the hospital is not functioning as a hospital anymore,” it said.

To be clear, I do not support the actions of the IDF. I want to make sure everyone knows that, before we get into a flame war and I get called a libtard by a tankie again. The above is absolutely horrifying and deeply offensive to humanity. But, it is somewhat credible in the claim that Hamas has been using the hospital for military purposes, making it a valid target. "Hamas denies it" is not a valid counter source.

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/14/us-int ... john-kirby

The U.S. has unspecified intelligence that Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups are using the largest hospital in the Gaza Strip and other medical facilities for military activities and holding hostages, National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby said on Tuesday.

Why it matters: The Al-Shifa Hospital has become a focal point in the Israel-Hamas war. Its grounds have become a refuge for thousands of displaced people, while Israeli officials have claimed it houses Hamas' headquarters and parts of the group's extensive tunnel system around Gaza. Hamas has denied those claims.

Conditions at the hospital and other Gaza medical facilities have rapidly deteriorated in recent weeks as the United Nations' humanitarian operations have been impeded by fighting and supply shortages.

Fighting between Israeli ground forces and Hamas militants has also intensified around Al-Shifa Hospital.
Over 10 patients, including six newborns, have died at the hospital in recent days from either fighting or power outages, while dozens of premature babies had to be relocated to an operating room without incubators, according to the UN.
More than 11,200 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed during Israel's heavy bombardment and ground operation, according to the Ministry of Health in Hamas-run Gaza.

What they're saying: Kirby said Tuesday that U.S. intelligence indicates the group has a command center in Al-Shifa, but stressed that the Biden administration does not want the facility or the civilians taking shelter there to be harmed.

"We do not support striking a hospital from the air, and we do not want to see a firefight in the hospital where innocent people, helpless people, sick people are simply trying to get the medical care that they deserve," Kirby said.

Civilian infrastructure like hospitals and other medical facilities are protected during armed conflicts by the laws of war, according to the Red Cross.

But such locations can lose those protections if they are being used to carry out "an act harmful to the enemy," which could imperil health workers and civilians receiving care.

The big picture: Israel has repeatedly accused Hamas of putting civilians in Gaza at risk by intentionally building tunnels and storing weaponry near civilian infrastructure.

In this war and in the past, attempts by Israel to destroy tunnels from the air have often resulted in civilian casualties.
The Biden administration has publicly pressed Israel to do more to protect civilians' lives in Gaza as it continues its air and ground operations against Hamas.
Israel's government has resisted calls for a ceasefire but has begun temporary humanitarian pauses to allow Palestinians in northern Gaza to get supplies or evacuate to the south.

An Axios article with confirmation. Does wander a bit, but I don't want to cherrypick.

I do not claim that it is settled fact, my tone and grammar in my earlier post was careless. The board has provided new information, as well. These are sources citing what I have seen.

Open source space has more data, but obviously it is a lot harder to track down and a LOT harder to verify. I had seen claimed thermal footage of a gathering outside the hospital several days ago, but I can't find it to link.

it. Why else would Hamas want to hold onto such a negative asset as combat-ineffective civilians? For a military with no long-term prospects, they are not an asset.

Desire to prevent the Israelis from murdering the people in said hospital, some of whom are likely injured Hamas soldiers?

Doesn't seem to be too much of a risk, I would guess. POWs have protections. Israel seems to have mostly avoided mass executions of prisoners, as it would be a serious blow to already-shaky international support; however, we all know Israel doesn't have much problem with killing noncombatants "accidentally." So if they capture the hospital, they'll have to keep everyone in it pretty much alive, whereas if they have to fight for it then they are justified (in the court of public opinion) when a bunch of bystanders get scratched off.

Furthermore, from a utilitarian perspective, everyone in that hospital is probably a lost asset already. This war is going to last a few more weeks or months, but not long enough to, say, recover from a shattered radius and get back in the fight. May as well let Israel have the hospital, unless it is tactically advantageous to hold due to geography or infrastructure, because nobody is coming back out and rejoining the ranks.

So there must be some military reason they are sticking close to the hospital, which is now revealed: they were staging troops there, hidden where Israeli bombs wouldn't fall.

Why on earth would Hamas of all groups expect hiding troops in a hospital to stop the Israeli military from bombing them? If anything that makes it more likely!
[/quote]

I understand this to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek, correct? Israel has exhibited restraint. The earlier claim of Israel deliberately demolishing a hospital was debunked, I thought.

The whole issue of whether Hamas uses tunnels, sewers, basements and other underground structures the way the Vietcong used tunnels and the partisans in Warsaw (in both the 1943 and 1944 uprisings) used sewers is rather silly. No doubt they do*. There's also no doubt that in a densely populated ghetto like Gaza, any and all tunnels are going to right next to large numbers of civilians. There's also no doubt whatsoever that anyone using this as a justification for bombing the living shit out these tunnels, killing nearby non-combatants by the bushel to get at a handful of Hamas fighters is if not an outright Nazi, close enough that they might as well be one.

Well, it gets thorny, doesn't it? Hamas is siting military infrastructure within civilian infrastructure, and fighting near civilians. They also often fight in civilian clothing. There is an argument to be made that a soldier shouldn't have to risk his life in tunnel fighting because an enemy combatant is fighting next to his own civilian infrastructure. Right? Israel would be exercising far greater restraint if they were clearing Hamas from an Israeli hospital, I would imagine, but that is, to a certain extent, how war works. I agree that all sides in all wars should have a respect for the sanctity of life, no matter what flag it flies, but at that point war itself becomes a bit obsolete. For now, it is unrealistic to call everyone who fights a war in a fairly standard manner a Nazi.

* As it turns out, it was Israel that built the concrete bunker underneath the Al-Shifa Hospital in the first place..

The Israelis are so sure about the location of the Hamas bunker, however, not because they are trying to score propaganda points, or because it has been repeatedly mentioned in passing by Western reporters—but because they built it. Back in 1983, when Israel still ruled Gaza, they built a secure underground operating room and tunnel network beneath Shifa hospital—which is one among several reasons why Israeli security sources are so sure that there is a main Hamas command bunker in or around the large cement basement beneath the area of Building 2 of the Hospital, which reporters are obviously prohibited from entering.

That is interesting indeed.

One thing that really needs to die in a fire is the notion of "human shields". No one is stupid enough to believe that having civilians close to military targets ever actually shields them from attack. This is true whether the attacker is a relatively civilized country or one carrying out genocide. Another reason to flush the idea is that it's mostly plagiarized from Fascist propaganda spewed by Mussolini's regime to justify attacks of Red Cross hospitals in Ethiopia. Nicola Perugini has some vintage illustrations from the period:

I have to agree and disagree here. You say whether the attacker is civilized or not, they will ignore civilians close to military infrastructure. But a paragraph ago, you said that anyone who bombs military targets regardless of civilians is a Nazi. Which one? Is it evidence of fascism, or just how wars are fought?

Aside from the fact that Il Duce had better artists to flack for his crimes against humanity (making his Fascist legions look like the Campbell's Soup Kids is an interesting artistic choice), there's little difference between the pics above and the political cartoons depicting Palestinians as creatures of the night. There's even the accusation that relief workers are in cahoots with the Ethiopians -I mean, Palestinians: the last illustration refers to the "Negro-loving Red Cross" and shows an artillery shell disguised as an oxygen tank. War whores and genocidaires need to come up with new material because only complete fucktards and sadist are buying the old bullshit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/N_N_N/comments ... &context=3
Let me know if this works for anyone else. I think Reddit requires an account to view certain media, dunno if this is covered.

Footage from the West Bank, it was geolocated in another post. A man wearing medical high-vis and civvies goes to an injured fighter, ignores him, takes his rifle, and hands it to another fighter in civilian clothing. Thereby making both of them combatants, and giving Israel a justification for excessive caution regarding ANYONE in civilian clothing or medical high-vis. A single example, I am aware, and not necessarily indicative of a trend. But I would caution you against sweeping statements like "every claim that Palestinians violate laws of war is wrong and if you say it you're a Nazi." Correspondingly, I will avoid statements like "Israel has done no evil and if you say so then you're antisemitic." Keep me honest.



The whole war is a tragedy, caused indirectly by hateful, oppressive Israeli policies towards Gaza and all Palestinians. I do not support all actions of the IDF. I only claim that Hamas is an unreliable narrator, and as much a liability for Palestinians as Netanyahu is for Israelis. While I may disagree with some members of the board on some matters, I hope we can all appreciate the value of ALL human life, Palestinian or Israeli, and so in our continuing debate refrain from accusations of fascism. If I have failed to make that clear above, I ask that my shortcoming be illuminated so I can reexamine my position, if necessary.

[Solauren]

The entire 'hospitals are off limits' rule is only that is very recent in military history or international law.

Hamas using it as a base to act as a shield doesn't surprise me, and does make some logistical sense.

If the IDF hit the hospital, yeah, military victory, but I believe that would unquestionably make Israel guilty of war crimes.

[KraytKing]

Well, similar to false surrender, fighting in civilian infrastructure does give your enemy a lot more leeway in what is and isn't a war crime.

Regarding the hospital, evidence supporting Israel does continue to grow more shaky. Not conclusive, mind, but whether or not it really was a military base is more in question than I had thought yesterday.