Israel orders mass 'evacuation' from Northern Gaza, humanitarian crisis certain to ensue

[Ralin]

One thing that really needs to die in a fire is the notion of "human shields". No one is stupid enough to believe that having civilians close to military targets ever actually shields them from attack. This is true whether the attacker is a relatively civilized country or one carrying out genocide

Eh. Currently the Israeli leadership seems to have written off all of Hamas's hostages/prisoners (something which is apparently drawing outrage even from the generally genocide and apartheid-loving Israeli public), but they have in the past shown that they are very averse to Jewish casualties and willing to go to great lengths to trade back captives or even remains.

Ironically, Hamas is at this point probably a lot more concerned about the well-being of their prisoners than the IDF since you generally can't use a dead hostage for much of anything.

[Broomstick]

The entire 'hospitals are off limits' rule is only that is very recent in military history or international law.

Hamas using it as a base to act as a shield doesn't surprise me, and does make some logistical sense.

If the IDF hit the hospital, yeah, military victory, but I believe that would unquestionably make Israel guilty of war crimes.

Incorrect.

If a hospital (or other normally protected building like a mosque, church, school, etc.) is truly being used for military purposes then it actually does become a legitimate military target and attacking it is not a war crime. However, the attacking party would do well to have some pretty solid proof of that before proceeding.

I will note that a hospital treating wounded soldiers of a particular side does not make that a military use or the hospital a legitimate target. It's staging military operations from a hospital, using it to store weaponry, in other words, actual military use that removes the protections the hospital would otherwise have.

[Ralin]

I understand this to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek, correct? Israel has exhibited restraint. The earlier claim of Israel deliberately demolishing a hospital was debunked, I thought.

Given the Israeli government's stated goal of 'reducing' Gaza's territory and slightly less explicitly stated goal of ethnically cleansing the entire Palestinian population through death or displacement no, I'm quite serious in saying that there is no reason why Hamas would believe placing their command center under a hospital would stop the Israeli military from bombing it and that if anything it makes them more likely to do so than if it was hidden under a donut shop or something. Hospitals being destroyed is one more way of encouraging Palestinians to pack up and leave for good.

[Tribble]

One thing that really needs to die in a fire is the notion of "human shields". No one is stupid enough to believe that having civilians close to military targets ever actually shields them from attack. This is true whether the attacker is a relatively civilized country or one carrying out genocide

Eh. Currently the Israeli leadership seems to have written off all of Hamas's hostages/prisoners (something which is apparently drawing outrage even from the generally genocide and apartheid-loving Israeli public), but they have in the past shown that they are very averse to Jewish casualties and willing to go to great lengths to trade back captives or even remains.

Ironically, Hamas is at this point probably a lot more concerned about the well-being of their prisoners than the IDF since you generally can't use a dead hostage for much of anything.

The entire purpose of having human shields is that it creates a win/win scenario regardless of what happens:

If your opponent chooses not to risk civilian lives and refuses to target them, this allows you to operate with relative impunity. And it shows that your opponent is weak and not willing to do what it takes to win, even when you’re killing their civilians without batting an eye.

If your opponent does choose to attack despite the human shields, everyone killed can be considered a martyr for your cause, and is proof that your opponent is just as bad if not worse than you.

Either way, you win. And yes, using your own population as human shields for your forces counts. It’s quite an effective tactic, which is precisely why Hamas is doing it.

[LadyTevar]

BBC ALLOWED INSIDE Al-SHIFA HOSPITAL WITH IDF TROOPS
((Photos of what they were shown at the link))

We clamber into the Al-Shifa hospital complex in darkness over a caved-in wall in the perimeter - knocked through with an armoured bulldozer on Tuesday to allow safer access for Israeli forces.

The BBC and one other television crew were the first journalists invited by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to view what Israel says it has found at the site.

Any extra light here is risky so we grope our way through the compound, following the heavily armed troops sent to escort us - stepping around makeshift tents, debris and sleeping people.

Doctors at the hospital say they have been working without power, food or water for days now - and that critically ill patients have died as a result, including newborn babies. People displaced by the fighting in Gaza have been sheltering in the hospital complex.

But Israel says Hamas also runs a network of underground tunnels, including under Al-Shifa hospital.

The masked special forces leading us into the building over debris and broken glass are a sign of how tense the situation still is here. Our presence, just a day after Israel took control of the hospital, speaks volumes about Israel's motivation to show the world why they are here.

In the brightly lit corridors of the MRI unit, Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan Conricus shows us three small stashes of Kalashnikovs, ammunition and bullet-proof vests - he says they have found around 15 guns in all, along with some grenades.
Lt Col Conricus also shows us some military booklets and pamphlets, and a map that he says is marked with potential entry and exit routes from the hospital.

What it tells us, he says, is that Hamas uses hospitals for military purposes.
"[And] we uncovered a lot of computers and other equipment which could really shed light on the current situation, hopefully regarding hostages as well."
The laptops, he says, contain photos and videos of hostages, taken after their kidnap to Gaza. There is also recently released footage, shared by Israeli police, of their interrogations of Hamas fighters arrested after the October attacks. The BBC was not shown what was on the laptops.

This, Lt Col Conricus said, suggested Hamas were here "within the last few days".
"At the end of the day, this is just the tip of the iceberg," he said. "Hamas aren't here because they saw we were coming. This is probably what they were forced to leave behind. Our assessment is that there's much more."

Israel's army has spent weeks fighting its way to the gates of the hospital. The streets around have seen some of the fiercest fighting in Gaza in the past few days.

Our visit was tightly controlled; we had very limited time on the ground and were not able to speak to doctors or patients there.

Our journey in to Gaza, in an armoured personnel carrier sealed tight from the darkness outside, traced the path of Israel's first major ground incursions into Gaza weeks ago.
On the screens inside the military vehicle, the agricultural land morphed slowly into distorted streets strewn with large pieces of debris, and the blurred outlines of shattered buildings.

Just south of Gaza City, we stopped to change vehicles, clambering out on to undulating mounds of twisted metal and large chunks of rubble and concrete.
Small groups of soldiers crouched over tiny campfires, cooking a makeshift dinner beside the rows of tanks. "It's a secret recipe," one winked.
Above them, buildings had collapsed in strange shapes. The rolling metal door of a shopfront hung cramped, halfway open.
A Star of David was scrawled on a wall in red spray-paint; inside it someone had written "IDF", and above it, the words: "Never Again".

The attacks of 7 October changed the calculation for Israel in its conflict with Hamas. It has vowed to end years of uneasy standoff, by destroying both the military and political power of Hamas, designated a terrorist organisation by the UK, US and others.

That means going into the heart of Gaza City, including inside Al-Shifa.

Israeli forces are still searching for the tunnels beneath the hospital that they believe Hamas fighters may have withdrawn to, perhaps with some of the hostages.
This building has become a central focus of Israel's war, described as a key command centre, even potentially the "beating heart" of Hamas operations.
And in the brutal information war that tails this conflict, this is Israel's moment of truth.

After almost 24 hours securing and searching the hospital, Israel says it has found weapons and other equipment that could help provide information on both Hamas fighters and the hostages. But it has its hands on neither.

We leave the hospital, and rumble down the wide avenue that leads to Gaza's coastal road. Gaza City is now ruled by tanks. The ghostly avenues look in places like an earthquake zone, the destruction is so severe.

It is clear what it took for Israel to get control of these streets.

They found 15 (fifteen) guns and "some grenades". Laptops with information are worth far more, but one wonders why they were left behind.
Forgive me if I find that's not enough to equal "THIS WAS A MAJOR COMMAND CENTER!!!!" in my mind.

[Ralin]

They found 15 (fifteen) guns and "some grenades". Laptops with information are worth far more, but one wonders why they were left behind.
Forgive me if I find that's not enough to equal "THIS WAS A MAJOR COMMAND CENTER!!!!" in my mind.

Could easily just be the personal weapons of soldiers being treated at the hospital that were being stashed until the owners left.

[Tribble]

They found 15 (fifteen) guns and "some grenades". Laptops with information are worth far more, but one wonders why they were left behind.
Forgive me if I find that's not enough to equal "THIS WAS A MAJOR COMMAND CENTER!!!!" in my mind.

Could easily just be the personal weapons of soldiers being treated at the hospital that were being stashed until the owners left.

Could also be that is was a major command centre but they pulled out before it was taken over. Or maybe it was never a major command centre to begin with. Or maybe the IDF don’t want to tip their hands as to how much equipment and intel they actually managed to get.

It’s not like we can trust anything that the IDF or Hamas claims.

[Formless]

Hell, I don't even fully trust the BBC, given that the British government has given basically unconditional support to Israel and tried to silence protestors even as they march in the hundreds of thousands in London. If they can't find more than a few dozen guns and a couple grenades, they don't have sufficient proof that the IDF hasn't in fact just committed a crime. There is no way to even link those weapons to Hamas, let alone prove that the place was being used for military operations when as stated, the weapons could legitimately belong to soldiers being treated, or to civilians. They could even be what in the US we call "throw down guns" that the cops use to frame innocent people. It certainly doesn't prove "Hamas command center!!!!!1!" When you are dealing with a military as corrupt as the IDF, its never prudent to assume they have more evidence than they are willing to show to journalists, even ones that are on their side.

[Tribble]

Hell, I don't even fully trust the BBC, given that the British government has given basically unconditional support to Israel and tried to silence protestors even as they march in the hundreds of thousands in London. If they can't find more than a few dozen guns and a couple grenades, they don't have sufficient proof that the IDF hasn't in fact just committed a crime. There is no way to even link those weapons to Hamas, let alone prove that the place was being used for military operations when as stated, the weapons could legitimately belong to soldiers being treated, or to civilians. They could even be what in the US we call "throw down guns" that the cops use to frame innocent people. It certainly doesn't prove "Hamas command center!!!!!1!" When you are dealing with a military as corrupt as the IDF, its never prudent to assume they have more evidence than they are willing to show to journalists, even ones that are on their side.

Nor is it prudent to trust anything Palestinian news groups either say either, let alone Hamas. They are no doubt trying their best at propaganda too. I don’t trust either Israel or Palestine to tell me what time of the day it is, let alone news about their fighting.

[Formless]

We weren't talking about anything Hamas said, but okay, keep up the hard work building those straw men.

[Ralin]

We weren't talking about anything Hamas said, but okay, keep up the hard work building those straw men.

Off the top of my head I don't even know whether Hamas has said anything about this hospital being bombed.

Tribble, what are these Hamas claims you speak of? Because aside from the IDF and Israeli government the people I see being quoted on the subject are doctors at the hospital, people from the World Health Organization, etc

[KraytKing]

Bear in mind, Israel again, did not demolish the hospital. They have the power to flatten that building with JDAMs without risking a life of their own, but instead spent days and lives encircling and then assaulting the building. I do not mean this as praise for doing the most basic requirement of a military intervention, do not mistake me. I contend that if Ralin was correct, then Israel would have simply flattened the hospital, along with all the others, and been done with it. Obviously, while Netanyahu is doubtlessly a bloodthirsty warmonger, he or his government is not without restraint.

Every single source on the battle at al-Shifa bears the suffix "Hamas denies the existence of a command center." Tevar quote BBC three days ago:

Israel has accused Hamas of having a command and control centre under the hospital - which the facility and Hamas deny

From a CNN article I quoted yesterday:

Hamas and hospital officials have denied the accusation that the hospital is being used as a command center.

From the Axios article I quoted yesterday:

Why it matters: The Al-Shifa Hospital has become a focal point in the Israel-Hamas war. Its grounds have become a refuge for thousands of displaced people, while Israeli officials have claimed it houses Hamas' headquarters and parts of the group's extensive tunnel system around Gaza. Hamas has denied those claims.

These I believe are the Hamas claims.

[Formless]

We weren't talking about anything Hamas said, but okay, keep up the hard work building those straw men.

Off the top of my head I don't even know whether Hamas has said anything about this hospital being bombed.

Tribble, what are these Hamas claims you speak of? Because aside from the IDF and Israeli government the people I see being quoted on the subject are doctors at the hospital, people from the World Health Organization, etc

They might have, but its not really important. This is one of those times where they don't need to say anything because Israel's evidence that the hospital was being used as a Hamas command center is about as flimsy as the evidence for WMD's that the Bush administration presented to the UN, which was so bad we now know that behind the scenes the guy who had to present it was furious about how shitty it looked. A few fucking rifles isn't enough to justify attacking a hospital (which is what they did even if they didn't bomb it; armed soldiers entering a hospital and clearing like a SWAT team is still a war crime). Hamas could say something, but even in a propaganda war, the old adage applies:

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."

[Ralin]

Bear in mind, Israel again, did not demolish the hospital. They have the power to flatten that building with JDAMs without risking a life of their own, but instead spent days and lives encircling and then assaulting the building. I do not mean this as praise for doing the most basic requirement of a military intervention, do not mistake me. I contend that if Ralin was correct, then Israel would have simply flattened the hospital, along with all the others, and been done with it. Obviously, while Netanyahu is doubtlessly a bloodthirsty warmonger, he or his government is not without restraint.

Not using even bigger bombs to blow up the hospital faster isn't restraint. I would call that a function of the fact that it is not a threat (because it is a hospital) and therefore they can afford to take their time blowing it up while also giving them the opportunity to gather 'evidence' for a photo op justifying it.

[Tribble]

We weren't talking about anything Hamas said, but okay, keep up the hard work building those straw men.

Off the top of my head I don't even know whether Hamas has said anything about this hospital being bombed.

Tribble, what are these Hamas claims you speak of? Because aside from the IDF and Israeli government the people I see being quoted on the subject are doctors at the hospital, people from the World Health Organization, etc

Hamas blames US for giving Israel ‘green light’ to raid al-Shifa Hospital
Group ruling Gaza says the White House gave Israel a green light ‘to commit more massacres against civilians’.

US President Joe Biden is “wholly responsible” for the Israeli assault on Gaza’s largest hospital, said Hamas, the Palestinian group that rules the enclave.

The accusation came in a statement on Wednesday, a day after the White House said US intelligence sources corroborated Israel’s claims that Hamas has buried an operational centre under the hospital.

“We hold the occupation [Israel] and President Biden wholly responsible for the assault on al-Shifa medical complex,” Hamas said.

“The adoption by the White House and the Pentagon of the occupation’s false claim that the resistance is using al-Shifa medical complex for military ends has given the green light to the occupation to commit more massacres against civilians,” the statement continued.

Israeli forces said on Wednesday morning that they were carrying out a “precise and targeted operation” against a suspected Hamas command centre beneath al-Shifa, where thousands of civilians are sheltering.

Youssef Abul Reesh, an official from the Hamas-run health ministry who is inside the hospital, told the AFP news agency that he could see tanks inside the complex and “dozens of soldiers and commandos inside the emergency and reception buildings”.

After sharp warnings from the United States and others that al-Shifa must be protected, Israel said the raid was being executed based on “an operational necessity”.

Israel has repeatedly claimed that Hamas’s military use of the facility “jeopardises its protected status under international law” – a claim that many international human rights lawyers refute.

Ardi Imseis, an international law expert at Queen’s University in Canada, told Al Jazeera that Israel has a history of presenting questionable and unverifiable evidence to the international community.

Imseis added Israel carries the burden to “produce evidence” and prove its claim that the hospital has been used by Hamas as a base.

“The object of the attack is a civilian object. Until such time that the Israelis provide proof that it has been converted into a military object, the civilian nature of the object does not change,” he said.

According to medical staff, an estimated 650 patients remain in the hospital. A further 5,000-7,000 displaced civilians are trapped inside the hospital grounds and under constant fire from Israeli snipers and drones, according to the health ministry.

Spokesman Ashraf al-Qudra told Al Jazeera Arabic that “there are only doctors, patients and displaced people” inside al-Shifa. “We have nothing to be afraid of or hide.”

The White House expressed concern shortly after the raid began.

“We do not support striking a hospital from the air and we don’t want to see a firefight in a hospital,” a National Security Council spokesperson said.

The official added that there should not be a situation in which “innocent people, helpless people, sick people trying to get medical care they deserve are caught in the crossfire”.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu promised to destroy Hamas in response to its attacks on southern Israel on October 7, which killed an estimated 1,200 people, mostly civilians, and saw 240 captives being taken to Gaza.

Israel’s attacks on Gaza since have so far killed more than 11,300 people.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/ ... ital-hamas

Hamas is denying that they are using the hospital for military purposes. And yes, I think it is equally important to talk about Hamas's statements and positions, given their role and all the violence they've caused. Forgive me for being equally skeptical of anything Hamas has to say, it's not like they would ever resort to killing civilians themselves, right?

Truth probably lies somewhere in the middle here IMO. Wouldn't be surprised if it was being used as a military installation by Hamas, but perhaps they either pulled most of their equipment / personnel out in time and/or it's not as big as the IDF are claiming. Or perhaps the IDF don't want to tip off how much info they acutally got.

[Formless]

Forgive me for being equally skeptical of anything Hamas has to say, it's not like they would ever resort to killing civilians themselves, right?

That's a Tu Quo fallacy. With regards to the hospital, its not relevant whether or not Hamas would commit a similar crime, so bringing it up is just a distraction from what is actually happening right now. We can talk about Israel's crimes in a vacuum because justice and the laws of war don't care who started the fight. The laws of war are not only very specific about how a nation is supposed to treat civilians in a war zone, they are even more specific on the topic of hospitals. This has already been covered in thread. Forgive me if I think the standards of evidence must be met before Israel gets a pass on this.

[Tribble]

Forgive me for being equally skeptical of anything Hamas has to say, it's not like they would ever resort to killing civilians themselves, right?

That's a Tu Quo fallacy. With regards to the hospital, its not relevant whether or not Hamas would commit a similar crime, so bringing it up is just a distraction from what is actually happening right now. We can talk about Israel's crimes in a vacuum because justice and the laws of war don't care who started the fight. The laws of war are not only very specific about how a nation is supposed to treat civilians in a war zone, they are even more specific on the topic of hospitals. This has already been covered in thread. Forgive me if I think the standards of evidence must be met before Israel gets a pass on this.

Given that Hamas' attacks happened less than two months ago I'd hardly call that a distraction, or something that occured in the distant past. It is still very much contextual to what's going on, especially given that Hamas is one of the main combatants. Whether or not Hamas is lying about using the hospital for military is material. Why should we believe their denials any more than we should believe the IDF?

Am I satisfied that Israel has at least presented some credible evidence that Hamas was using the hospital for military operations? Sure. Unless the IDF managed to catch Hamas completely flat footed I dont see how the IDF would be able to gather much more than what they did, as Hamas would have pulled everything they could the moment they realised that the IDF was going to attack. If you are denying that you used a hospital as a base, the last thing you'd want to do is leave any evidence behind. And it also concievable that IDF may captured a lot more than what they are letting on, and simply don't want to talk about it because of all the potential intel. That being stated, I'm not necessarily convinced that the scale of the operations was anywhere near as big as what the IDF is claimimg.

And to be clear, although I'm willing to believe that Hamas used the hospital for military purposes, I'm still not giving Israel a pass on this. I don't think the hospital should have been attacked, because a) they were certainly going to end up killing civilians, which is wrong, and b) regardless of whether or not Hamas was using it for military operations, the IDF attacking it was a great propoganda piece for them. Attacking hospitals never looks good, even when they may technically be legitimate military targets.

[Formless]

Given that Hamas' attacks happened less than two months ago I'd hardly call that a distraction, or something that occured in the distant past. It is still very much contextual to what's going on, especially given that Hamas is one of the main combatants. Whether or not Hamas is lying about using the hospital for military is material. Why should we believe their denials any more than we should believe the IDF?

Because the onus is on the IDF to prove their attack was justified, not on Hamas to prove it wasn't. Come on, you should know better.

In a more just world, this would all come to a military tribunal for war crimes. In such a tribunal, they would not care about Hamas's statement because it is not relevant to the actions taken by the IDF. The hospital itself is an entity protected from hostility against it by both the IDF and Hamas. What would matter is what intel the IDF acted on that justified attacking a civilian hospital. Even if the evidence gathered after the hospital was attacked showed that a Hamas base was actually there (which would then have to be scrutinized for evidence of fabrication), the onus is on the attacker to do their due diligence before committing to a potentially illegal act. You aren't allowed to gamble that there might be a Hamas base in or under the hospital just because Hamas denies that there is one. If they acted without sufficient evidence, they committed a war crime. This is all well understood international law, meant to protect hospitals from arbitrary or negligent actions by any and all warring parties.

But of course the IDF thrives on people not understanding how international laws of war work, as well as people getting distracted from those points by blaming Hamas for everything they do wrong themselves.

And to be clear, although I'm willing to believe that Hamas used the hospital for military purposes, I'm still not giving Israel a pass on this. I don't think the hospital should have been attacked, because a) they were certainly going to end up killing civilians, which is wrong, and b) regardless of whether or not Hamas was using it for military operations, the IDF attacking it was a great propoganda piece for them. Attacking hospitals never looks good, even when they may technically be legitimate military targets.

I frankly don't think the IDF cares about their public image as long as American military aid continues to come to them, as long as the US has two aircraft carriers parked in the Mediterranean, and they know no tribunals will ever happen because the UN is too spineless to take real actions to, say, create a no-fly zone above Palestine to stop the IDF from bombing Gaza back to the stone age. They believe they have impunity, so it should never come as a shock when they act negligently or outright and obviously criminally.

[LadyTevar]

IDF finds Second Hostage Body near al-Shifa Hospital

Israel has confirmed that it has found the body of a second woman who was taken into Gaza by Hamas in its attack last month.

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said 19-year-old Cpl Noa Marciano was discovered in a building next to the Al-Shifa Hospital.

On Thursday, the IDF said they found the body of a 65-year-old hostage in a house near the same hospital.

Troops are continuing their search in and around Gaza's biggest hospital.

A spokesman for the IDF, Daniel Hagari, wrote on the social media platform X, formerly Twitter, that Israeli intelligence led soldiers to the exact location of her body.

The IDF did not give further details on how Cpl Marciano died.

Hamas's military wing claimed she was killed in an Israeli air strike on 9 November, though this could not be independently verified.

[Rogue 9]

Netanyahu gave an interview to NPR this morning.

[bobalot]

Both CNN and the BBC have articles indicating at least one gun was planted in Al-Shifa hospital for the press.
https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/liv ... e963499e82

CNN have called it "rearranged weaponry".

Anyway, Israel just bombed an UN affiliated school. Killed at least 50.

[LadyTevar]

Anadolu Ajansi report on school Bombing

CNN Article on school bombing

Aljazeera article claiming TWO schools bombed

ABC News also saying TWO Schools Bombed within hours of each other

So, we seem to have TWO UN-affliated schools that have been bombed -- UNRWA school at Al Maghazi refugee camp that killed at least eight, and UNRWA Ahmed Abdelaziz school in the southern city of Khan Younis that killed at least five and left dozens injured.

There's 183 UNRWA-ran schools in Gaza.

One School? Ok, Israeli inputted the coordinates wrong. Accidents can happen.
TWO SCHOOLS, within hours of each other? No, No Accident. Someone knew what they were targetting and did it anyway. I wonder what the IDF's comments will be, once they release any. Will they throw whomever was in charge of that artillery under the bus?

[LadyTevar]

Both CNN and the BBC have articles indicating at least one gun was planted in Al-Shifa hospital for the press.
https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/liv ... e963499e82

CNN have called it "rearranged weaponry".

There were comments on here and elsewhere that 15 weapons seemed a bit odd, and many pondering if they'd been planted. Now, the whole discovery is tainted because someone decided to give the news crews more to film.

[bobalot]

Isreal banked a lot of finding a COBRA hidden base under the hospital. Found nothing and we have this.

Planting of weapons for the press.

I have read there was actually a bunker of some sort built under or near the hospital... by the Isrealis when they directly occupied the Gaza strip.

[LadyTevar]

Isreal banked a lot of finding a COBRA hidden base under the hospital. Found nothing and we have this.

Planting of weapons for the press.

I have read there was actually a bunker of some sort built under or near the hospital... by the Isrealis when they directly occupied the Gaza strip.

Yes, the Israelis built the bunkers, but Hamas has been using *SOME* of the other tunnels and bunkers Israel built, so why not this one?