Israel orders mass 'evacuation' from Northern Gaza, humanitarian crisis certain to ensue

[LadyTevar]

No mention of it on the news here, the exchanges are still happening.

Hopefully they'll continue happening, even with the gun attack in Jerusalem. Have they proved the shooters were members of Hamas, or were they another Anti-Israel faction?

[LadyTevar]

The CeaseFire is over. Hamas and Israel are blaming the other for it, of course, but between the attack on West Bank and the shooting in Jerusalem both sides are at fault.

Israel has leaf-bombed the city of Khan Younis.

For the first time, (the leaflets) included a QR code linking to a map of the Gaza Strip, broken down into hundreds of separate blocks with numbers assigned to them.
In a statement, the IDF says the map is designed "to enable the residents of Gaza to orient themselves and understand the instructions, and to evacuate from specific places for their safety if required".

The new approach raises a host of questions.
This morning’s leaflets did not appear to refer to any of the numbered blocks. A message in Arabic merely told residents of four named (but not numbered) areas to "evacuate immediately and go to shelters in Rafah.”

It ended with the words: "You’ve been warned."

Not enough to destroy one city. As expected, they're going to raze every city inside Gaza, and then what?

[LaCroix]

Not enough to destroy one city. As expected, they're going to raze every city inside Gaza, and then what?

After they have been pushed into a corner?
They are going to end it.

They get attacked, and the entire mood still almost immediately swings to - the poor Palestinians, Israel is a monster.
Israel is vilified for bombing civilians, while Hamas constantly shelling Israeli civillians is being ignored, because iIsrael intercepts all these rockets.
While Hamastinians are chanting River to the sea, all over the world, and gets cheered on for releasing the civilians they didn't murder hostages.

Let's plax devil's advocate , and put the options on the table.

Option 1:
Israel ends this now, and goes back to the status quo.

Israel will be remembered as a monster for this, while Hamas continues as is, but with almost better pr.
A new generation of terrorits is raised and trained, israel will need to police the borders and be under constant threat of more rockets and october 7 attacks.
Their neighbors will hate them the same as now, and the west will still see them as an evil genocider, and the root of all evil behind politics.
Hamas will rearm for the next round, Iran and Russia will support them.

Option 2:
No more Gaza, no more West bank.

Israels will be remembered as a monster for it, But Hamas is gone.
-> no neighbor country will allow them to set up base within their border, so they will all die in Israel - remember - when asked to take refugees, every country refused, cyting all palestinians are terrorists. Which is right, they are taught that being a suicide bomber or jihad fighter is the biggest thing they can ever acheive - complete brainwash of entire generations.

Palestinans will be either allowed to leave to where they want or to stay, but in a single state - Israel.
After the smoke settles, they will rebuild things without hidden firing ramps, and the next generation of Palestinians will grow up under Israeli rule, with israeli schools, hospitals, etc. As the old ones die out or come around (most are pissed at Hamas, but have no choice), things settle down.
Of course, Israel will need to police these territories, but that is the same as policing the borders and having patrols around gaza and west bank, and the ability to train new soldiers and have firing positions to fire rockest is pretty much completely removed.
Palestinians are going to be integrated into Isreal, like the already numerous israeli arabs, and taught that living a life is more important than becoming a martyr.

Their neighbors will hate them the same as now, aome more, some less (since a few will be happy they don't have to deal with Hamas smugglers along their borders, anymore), the west will see them as an evil genocider (especially until the next news cycle will be aroud, soon, and all will be forgotten, kinda), and the root of all evil behind politics. Diplomacy will be a bit worse, but they'll get that fixed, especially once they control the narrative with Hamas gone, and efforts to rebuild will start showing in the internet.
But Hamas is no more in Israel.


I am pretty sure that October 7 has tipped the scales - They are going to end this. And since every politician who was shown the records of the october attack agrees with them that Hamas is just a green Isis, the support will be there.
Especially since the US now fully understands after Afghanistan and Irak, that if you don't finish the job, ruthlessly, jihadism can not be defeated.

This is not going to be easy for the next decade or two , but since the current model has been tried for decades with constant failures that always started the same shitcycle, again, I can't fault them for saying - screw it, we offered multiple times, and got kicked in the teeth, progressively harder, each time.

They are going to end it, now.

[madd0c0t0r2]

@lacroix,

Pity you can't imagine a third option where Israel stopped acting as occupier in a apartheid state.

[Ralin]

Palestinans will be either allowed to leave to where they want or to stay, but in a single state - Israel.
After the smoke settles, they will rebuild things without hidden firing ramps, and the next generation of Palestinians will grow up under Israeli rule, with israeli schools, hospitals, etc. As the old ones die out or come around (most are pissed at Hamas, but have no choice), things settle down.
Of course, Israel will need to police these territories, but that is the same as policing the borders and having patrols around gaza and west bank, and the ability to train new soldiers and have firing positions to fire rockest is pretty much completely removed.
Palestinians are going to be integrated into Isreal, like the already numerous israeli arabs, and taught that living a life is more important than becoming a martyr.

If Israel had any intention of doing that they would have done it a long time ago. Hell, they could have just started snatching up Palestinian children and relocating them en masse to some sort of special schools somewhere else in the country if they wanted to integrate them into Israeli society long-term. Equality isn't an option because an Israel where everyone has citizenship and equal rights wouldn't be a Jewish state.

Israels will be remembered as a monster for it, But Hamas is gone.
-> no neighbor country will allow them to set up base within their border, so they will all die in Israel - remember - when asked to take refugees, every country refused, cyting all palestinians are terrorists. Which is right, they are taught that being a suicide bomber or jihad fighter is the biggest thing they can ever acheive - complete brainwash of entire generations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

It's fucking disgusting of you to keep using that "Haha, other Muslim/Arab countries aren't giving them refuge because they're bad!" talking point to justify genocide against Palestinians.

[muse]

I am pretty sure that October 7 has tipped the scales - They are going to end this. And since every politician who was shown the records of the october attack agrees with them that Hamas is just a green Isis, the support will be there.
Especially since the US now fully understands after Afghanistan and Irak, that if you don't finish the job, ruthlessly, jihadism can not be defeated.

The US? Learning from history? Are you serious??

[Zaune]

No more Gaza, no more West bank.

And no more Palestinians, and probably no more Israeli Arabs in the long run. Perhaps some of the kids will merely be forcibly converted (insofar as you can actually do that with Judaism) and made to forget who their birth parents were and who they themselves used to be if they're lucky enough to survive the bombings.

[bilateralrope]

@lacroix,

Pity you can't imagine a third option where Israel stopped acting as occupier in a apartheid state.

That would be the ideal solution. Though it would require Israel to endue attacks from Hamas until they calm down, without retaliation. Probably for at least a decade.

I can't see Israel agreeing to that.

[Ralin]

That would be the ideal solution. Though it would require Israel to endue attacks from Hamas until they calm down, without retaliation. Probably for at least a decade.

I can't see Israel agreeing to that.

If Israel/Palestine was a non-apartheid state where everyone born there had equal rights and citizenship and could come and go as they pleased and Gaza was just another part of the place Hamas would go from a military threat to a glorified gang that the police can round up as needed.

[LaCroix]

I can see that third option - but that doesn't matter, since I am not the one to make decisions.

That's why it is called "devil's advocate" - cou try seeing it from the viewpoint of the other side.
And I don't see that Israel sees any other than those 2 options - option 3 is way too farfeched when the stated number one goal of Hamas is "death to all jews". I don't see them willing to endure years and years of hamas attacks without retaliation - and since Hamas is not just a gang of thugs, but an organizazion with military equipment and politcal backers, not retaliating in the current fashion would result in the same things we see in Syria and Afghanistan - a painful, bloody, gradual losing scenario that will not end well. They will not consider this.

[Ralin]

when the stated number one goal of Hamas is "death to all jews".

This is not true. While Hamas has made general anti-Semitic statements in the past and while many Hamas members likely have strong negative feelings towards Jewish people they updated their charter some years back to clearly state that their issues are with Zionism and the Israeli state. Not Judaism.

That's why it is called "devil's advocate" - cou try seeing it from the viewpoint of the other side.

Yeah except you've repeatedly pulled the "Haha why don't the other Muslim countries want to live with them? Really makes you think!" bullshit while also describing Palestinians and their supporters as rabid enemies of civilization. Which taken together makes it sound an awful lot like your goal here is to defend the large-scale ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population and aren't willing to come out and say it.

[Broomstick]

No more Gaza, no more West bank.

And no more Palestinians, and probably no more Israeli Arabs in the long run. Perhaps some of the kids will merely be forcibly converted (insofar as you can actually do that with Judaism) and made to forget who their birth parents were and who they themselves used to be if they're lucky enough to survive the bombings.

That's not how conversion works in Judaism.

There are religious fanatics in the Israeli government at present who would deny the Jewishness of a lot of Jews these days, they'd never tolerate converts under the scenario you propose. Specifically people like ben-Gvir and Smotrich but there are others.

[Ralin]

That's not how conversion works in Judaism.

That's not how it works now. Times change, as the existence of the state of Israel shows.

I'm not asking for a lecture on how Jewish conversion works, I'm just saying you should be careful about making assumptions in this hypothetical scenario

There are religious fanatics in the Israeli government at present who would deny the Jewishness of a lot of Jews these days, they'd never tolerate converts under the scenario you propose. Specifically people like ben-Gvir and Smotrich but there are others.

And likewise, who knows how much those fanatics would be in a position to dictate terms to the rest of the country ten, twenty years from now once the Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed.

[LadyTevar]

Ok. We're edging into grey areas here, especially with talk of genocide.

Throttle back, deep breaths, try to clear heads and look at this objectively.

Once again, if this thread gets too heated I will be forced to close it under IVP.

[Zaune]

That's not how conversion works in Judaism.

There are religious fanatics in the Israeli government at present who would deny the Jewishness of a lot of Jews these days, they'd never tolerate converts under the scenario you propose. Specifically people like ben-Gvir and Smotrich but there are others.

Ethnonationalism is a hell of a drug, eh?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Israel is telling the south of Gaza to evacuate now. But evacuate to where, exactly? Egypt? The north of Gaza isn't exactly habitable now.

[Broomstick]

The Israeli government has specifically told people NOT to go to the north of Gaza (of course, some ignore that).

Both Egypt and the US have stated that the Palestinians will not be displaced into Egypt.

This boils down to the IDF/Israeli government telling people to do the impossible: evacuate when they are trapped and there is nowhere for them to go.

[LadyTevar]

"Wounded Child, No Surviving Family" is the new acronym in Gaza hospitals

[Elfdart]

It's fucking disgusting of you to keep using that "Haha, other Muslim/Arab countries aren't giving them refuge because they're bad!" talking point to justify genocide against Palestinians.

I'm reminded of this recent exchange:

[Vympel]

It's fucking disgusting of you to keep using that "Haha, other Muslim/Arab countries aren't giving them refuge because they're bad!" talking point to justify genocide against Palestinians.

Literally a Nazi - no - not just Nazi - but an actual Hitler talking point, btw:



EDIT: Finklestein notes that in Elfdart's video above I see

[LadyTevar]

Claims HAMAS planned and used "Systematic Rape and Murder" during Oct 7th Attacks

Posted without comment.

[LaCroix]

It seems Israel has a new tactic - they started simply flooding all tunnels they find (or the ones thery think too dangerous to go into, idk) with sea water.

[Ralin]

Claims HAMAS planned and used "Systematic Rape and Murder" during Oct 7th Attacks

Posted without comment.

Yeah that sounds pretty horrible. The UN should commission some sort of investigation by third party countries to go over the evidence so that anyone implicated can be put on trial for it if they are still alive.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

It seems Israel has a new tactic - they started simply flooding all tunnels they find (or the ones thery think too dangerous to go into, idk) with sea water.

Not a new tactic, they have flooded them with sewage in the past. I was expecting them to do it with tear gas this time or something.

[Solauren]

It seems Israel has a new tactic - they started simply flooding all tunnels they find (or the ones thery think too dangerous to go into, idk) with sea water.

Not a new tactic, they have flooded them with sewage in the past. I was expecting them to do it with tear gas this time or something.

Gas masks are effective against tear gas, but are useless underwater. It's not like you'd expect Hamas to have scuba gear.