Fucking A...Basra not cleared because of Brits' laziness

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Fucking A...Basra not cleared because of Brits' laziness

Post by MKSheppard »

Time to flame our British Brethren for their forces' sloppy and shitty
battleplan:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... 3Apr2.html
Also, the Iraqis know that with a U.S. approach designed to end the war as quickly as possible, the U.S. military is unlikely to follow the example of the British forces outside Basra and sit at the city limits, refusing to take the bait
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... 3Apr2.html

British Use Raids to Wear Down Iraqi Fighters

By Keith B. Richburg
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, April 3, 2003; Page A25

ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF BASRA, April 2 -- British soldiers ringing Basra have begun regular raids into the city, pushing deeper and deeper with each incursion to gather information on Iraqi fighters inside and destroy Iraqi firing positions before withdrawing to secure areas on the outskirts.

The tactic is dictated as much by necessity as by design. As long as President Saddam Hussein's Baath Party remains in control of Basra -- residents and even some British officers agree that the two-week siege has yet to dent the party's hold -- British commanders are loath to order a full-scale assault that would entail bloody street battles and doubtless cause civilian casualties.

The siege of Basra -- and the guerrilla tactics used by the Iraqi army and the militia group Saddam's Fedayeen inside -- could be an indication of what U.S. Marines and soldiers will encounter when they reach Baghdad, the Iraqi capital. Iraqi defenders inside Basra have stymied the better-equipped British troops outside by interspersing themselves, their artillery and their tanks among the civilian population, almost daring the British to come inside the city for a showdown.

Just before dawn this morning, British forces in armored vehicles raced across the southernmost main bridge into Basra and punched about three miles into town, drawing fierce Iraqi mortar fire in retaliation. Officers said the aim of that raid was to gather intelligence, and they called it a success.

Two hours later, British troops, including engineers, went across the bridge to try to cut the oil pipeline feeding into a trench that was set ablaze by the Iraqis, sending plumes of black smoke billowing over the city. The British troops withdrew about 30 minutes later under heavy Iraqi mortar fire, an officer said.

British troops from Zulu Company, based at Basra International Airport, launched a raid across the river during the night to secure control of a large food warehouse at the edge of the city. The warehouse contained an estimated 300 tons of food stocks, believed to have been delivered under the U.N. oil-for-food program.

A unit of British Warrior armored vehicles raced across a field under the bridge to battle Iraqi fighters who were holed up in a sprawling factory compound and firing rocket-propelled grenades and assault rifles at British troops on the bridge. One officer estimated that between 10 and 20 Iraqis were killed inside the factory. The soldiers allowed an Iraqi civilian to collect one dead body that lay outside the factory, but other Iraqis were told to wait until after the war to collect the dead inside.

With these repeated incursions across the river -- and the immediate withdrawals back across the bridges that form the entrances to Basra -- the British say they are trying to slowly wear down the Iraqi resistance and demonstrate that there are no "safe areas" for Iraqi fighters to challenge British positions.

"All the companies have mounted several raids into the city, gathering intelligence and finding out how much resistance there is," said Maj. John Cotterill, a 26-year army veteran who speaks Arabic and is attached to the Irish Guards as an interpreter. "We want to destroy their mortars and find out more about their positions."

He called the tactic "reconnaissance by force." Asked why the British troops did not try to remain in the city and establish a foothold, he replied, "We're quite happy here. We don't want to go in there. Just kill the bad guys and come out again. And go in and kill some more and come out again."

As long as Hussein remains in power in Baghdad, his Baath Party is likely to retain its grip on this predominantly Shiite Muslim city in the south, British officers said. A brief revolt against Hussein's rule after the Persian Gulf War in 1991 was crushed after it failed to win U.S. backing; this time Basra residents are believed to be reluctant to show any anti-government sentiment until the course of the war becomes clearer.

Asked who controls Basra, Aaed Manuel, an engineer who works for the International Red Cross and who lives in the center of the city, replied without hesitation: "The government. Until now, it's the government. Outside, it's the British."

"The Baath Party and the Fedayeen are still in control," said Maj. Aidan Stephen, a civil liaison officer of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards. "Until you can actually get a foot on the ground, that element will stay."

"At a political level, there's a tie-in" between Basra and Baghdad, Stephen said. "The Americans are going towards Baghdad. We've been outside of Basra. Which one goes first?"

If the British do storm and take Basra, many of the Iraqi fighters now entrenched in the city could end up moving north, he said, "complicating things for the Americans."

Part of the British effort is to win the trust of the population and convince them that, unlike in 1991, they intend to stay in Iraq and fight until Hussein is ousted. Small fliers being distributed in the area show a drawing of a bearded Iraqi shaking hands with a British soldier and carry the message, in Arabic: "We will not desert you this time. Trust us and be patient."

Iraqis inside the city have not only taken defensive positions; they are also attempting to take the fight to the British, and trying to taunt them into a full-scale battle in the city. They fire mortars regularly. British troops on the bridge say they have become more accurate in recent days. Early this morning an Iraqi mortar landed about 30 feet from where British troops were sleeping.

The Iraqi fighters have also placed land mines on the side of the bridge closest to the city. This morning British troops on the bridge discovered a mine attached to a tripwire in a field close to their position. An officer speculated that the mine was placed there as a booby trap, since Iraqis knew that when they fired mortars at the bridge, the British troops jumped into that field for cover.

"They were hoping that when we ran for cover, someone would trip it and lose a leg," Cotterill said.

British engineers detonated the mine in a controlled explosion this afternoon.

Cotterill said Iraqi resistance to the incursions depends on the time of day. The most resistance is at night, he said. Occasionally, the British have launched incursions at midday and found no Iraqi fighters. "In the middle of the heat of day, there was no resistance at all," he said. "I think it was siesta time."

**************

Great, no fucking wonder why Basra hasn't been taken in two fucking
weeks, the british are dicking around taking it inch by inch...this
entire cockup by them is starting to remind me of one of the late
Sir Bernard Law Montgomery's battleplans: intricately complex,
and takes forever to work.
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Post by Vympel »

The US forces approaching Baghdad might do the same thing, but on a larger scale- they'll have to encircle the entire city, of course, and they'll have the Republican Guards (Medina and Baghdad divisions probably hurting, but not 'destroyed' as the claims go), Special Republican Guards, Fedayeen, militia, foreign fighters, and martyrs to deal with, rather than just Baath Party fighters, fedayeen, and the 51st Mechanized.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Vympel wrote:The US forces approaching Baghdad might do the same thing, but on a larger scale- they'll have to encircle the entire city, of course, and they'll have the Republican Guards (Medina and Baghdad divisions probably hurting, but not 'destroyed' as the claims go), Special Republican Guards, Fedayeen, militia, foreign fighters, and martyrs to deal with, rather than just Baath Party fighters, fedayeen, and the 51st Mechanized.
Nah. We'll just go:

"Sir, Republican guards have holed up in that building!"

"Roger Roger"

*sound of Paveway II LGB guiding into said building, followed by huuuge
explosion*
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Post by Edi »

And maybe you should ship over there to show them how it's done since you know so much better? Just shut the fuck up.

Seems to me the Brits are handling the thing in a sensible manner, exactly as they should. This course of action will take somewhat longer, but will result in less dead (Iraqi Army and Fedayeen excluded) all around, less destruction of infrastructure and overall less resentment from the populace than would an extended urban assault that left the city in a smoking ruin.

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Post by MKSheppard »

Edi wrote:And maybe you should ship over there to show them how it's done since you know so much better? Just shut the fuck up.
Hey, fuck you. After so much whinging and micro analyzing of the US
battleplan, I just have to get this one in concerning our allies, who are
taking their pretty time.....

NEWS FLASH:

Every day you delay taking Basra is MORE TIME FOR THE
IRAQIS TO FORTIFY IT. Yes, that's right, those Iraqis aren't
sitting around doing nothing, but fortifying the city.
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Post by Edi »

I know what the deal is, Shep. Yes, the Iraqis might have more time to fortify the place, but they'll get precious little done if they're constantly being raided, and what big strongpoints they do manage will just make for large fat targets when the Brits finally do go in.

If, on the other hand, the Brits go in now, they will first take a position, then fortify it as a base, and they would just become a target for Iraqi raids (which, given the current setup, are not possible). They'd also have the additional headache of needing to run supplies through the gauntlet of the city streets just to keep the troops holding the fort in enough ammo, food and water. Trust me, they Brits are doing quite well right now.

Sorry if I came off as harsh, but your tone was just so outright disrespectful in general that it set me off, even though I'm not a Brit.

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Post by NecronLord »

I know how we could take Basra.

We could send over a few tac nukes. :roll:

Shep what the fuck are you on about, name a fast and successful urban campain. This is how urban warfare is done. Unless you fancy going over and doing a Rambo?
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Post by Vympel »

NecronLord wrote:
Shep what the fuck are you on about, name a fast and successful urban campain. This is how urban warfare is done.
It's not how urban warfare is done. Personally, I think the British are courting the deaths of their soldiers for no appreciable gain with these insignificant raids. They're not taking any ground, they don't control anything. They go in, shots are fired, they move out again- they're probably just doing that to make it look like they're doing something. I certainly wouldn't be enthused about going in there- possibly, they're hoping that the fall of Baghdad will make their job easier.
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NecronLord wrote: Shep what the fuck are you on about, name a fast and successful urban campain. This is how urban warfare is done. Unless you fancy going over and doing a Rambo?
*takes out copy of William Craig's Enemy at the Gates and begins bitchslapping
NecronLord with it*

There were many critical features at Stalingrad that the Germans could
have simply walked in and seized on the first day of the Battle after
their forces had crossed the Don river and had reached the Banks of the Volga.

Instead of pushing forward and seizing as much ground as possible,
the Germans chose to rest, and what resulted due to their lack of
initative on the first day, were several very bloody mini-battles
to sieze vital chokepoints that could have been siezed in the
first day with little blood.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Vympel wrote: It's not how urban warfare is done. Personally, I think the British are courting the deaths of their soldiers for no appreciable gain with these insignificant raids. They're not taking any ground, they don't control anything. They go in, shots are fired, they move out again- they're probably just doing that to make it look like they're doing something
Wow, the way the Brits are handling Basra, it's starting to sound like
another Vietnam, literally. Go out, lose a guy to a mortar round,
go back to base, make a report, and then do it all over again in
the same spot the next day :roll:
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Post by Warspite »

Shep, you're not understanding the British militariy point of view. They want to avoid as much as possible urban fighting, they sucessfully control the main accesses to Basrah, and current operations are for the control of outlying structures (yesterday a factory complex was sucessfully taken), the militia still control large parts of Basrah, and lets be frank, if he British wanted, the could level the town.

The main strategy is to gain the civilian's thrust, erode slowly the outer suburbs, puting more and more pressure on the militias (as long as they are on the move, they are vulnerable), and ultimately create a situation where the civilians will welcome them.
Already HumInt is starting to prove its worth, in several briefings and interviews, the British commanders have said they had word of militia meetings, or concentrations, and those promptly attacked. The Ba'ath Party HQ has already been destroyed, thanks to HumInt.
Also, fortifications are irrelevant, today's military power makes that point moot, the danger comes from the assymetrical warfare carried by the militias by disguising themselves as innocent civilians, the Iraqis know that if they fortify, they are dead. It's the mobility afforded by melting into the population that has prevented a lightining attack towards Basrah.


And let's be frank, the British have more experience in this sort of operations than the US, no matter all the training, nothing beats the years of experience in Northern Ireland. (Case in point: flying vehicle checkpoints.)
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Post by MKSheppard »

Warspite wrote:Shep, you're not understanding the British militariy point of view.
They've conceeded the initative to the Feydaeen and Special Republican
Guards holed up in the town.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Warspite wrote:Oh, yeah... Read.
Basically, I see just basic PsyOps tactics there, get the locals on your
side by bribing 'em.

Nothing about urban combat.
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Post by Warspite »

MKSheppard wrote: They've conceeded the initative to the Feydaeen and Special Republican
Guards holed up in the town.
Yes, they did, the only way to get to them. It's more costly in terms of military casualties (so far, pretty low), less costly in terms of civilian casualties (let's not compare this operation with previous wars), but effective to "root" out the militias (it sound's cliched, but its a suitable term), since their capacity to merge with the population would be tantamount to terrorist activities post-invasion.
And this is the focus point. If the British took Basrah in the early days, the militias would go underground, and for the next months (years?) there would be frequent news of attacks by a fleeting militia that couldn't be traced amongst a population. If they continue operations, they are vulnerable.

It all comes down to "Hearts and Minds", the population see the British are there for good, will help them, and in turn, they help the British by limiting militia operations.
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Post by Warspite »

MKSheppard wrote: Basically, I see just basic PsyOps tactics there, get the locals on your
side by bribing 'em.

Nothing about urban combat.
That's the point. It's not all about going into the city, countrol chokepoints, and agressively search for the militias (catch the meaning?). It's taking into account the population in the city, and their reactions to the possible loss of a repressing agent.
Urban combat is shitty business, and to be avoided, it's best if the population is working for the military, then against it.
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Post by Edi »

Vympel wrote:
NecronLord wrote:
Shep what the fuck are you on about, name a fast and successful urban campain. This is how urban warfare is done.
It's not how urban warfare is done. Personally, I think the British are courting the deaths of their soldiers for no appreciable gain with these insignificant raids. They're not taking any ground, they don't control anything. They go in, shots are fired, they move out again- they're probably just doing that to make it look like they're doing something. I certainly wouldn't be enthused about going in there- possibly, they're hoping that the fall of Baghdad will make their job easier.
Vympel, if they go in and take that ground to control sites in the interior of the city, they'll have to devote troops to holding it, supply will be a problem, and they will also provide the Iraqi irregulars a nice sitting target in the middle of their own territory and they'll have a lot more firepower concentrated on them than they can concentrate back. And once they do go in, it becomes sort of like a black hole, sucking in more and more men to make the situation more tolerable, and those men have to come from somewhere, that somewhere being the ring of troops surrounding Basra. The way to deal with Basra is the same as dealing with Baghdad (both large cities, after all), and there was already a discussion on that in Patrick Degan'sBest strategy for taking Baghdad thread. I outlined how it's likely going to go and then I and Marina got to arguing about it until Knife pitched in. Basra and Baghdad are largely the same in terms of tactics required that we can just as well apply what I said in that thread here too. Go and take another look at that, we don't need to rehash it all here.

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Post by weemadando »

Whats the problem?

I mean whats more sensible, sitting off outside a city waiting for resistance to fail?

Or charging into a CQB situation against an entrenched enemy in a city with a hostile populace?

Get real.
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Warspite wrote: That's the point. It's not all about going into the city, countrol chokepoints, and agressively search for the militias (catch the meaning?). It's taking into account the population in the city, and their reactions to the possible loss of a repressing agent.
Then explain why the brits are going into Basra under the cover of night,
shooting up some people, capturing a warehouse, and then GOING
BACK ACROSS THE RIVER, AND GIVING UP THE GROUND THEY
CAPTURED!
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Edi wrote: Vympel, if they go in and take that ground to control sites in the interior of the city, they'll have to devote troops to holding it, supply will be a problem, and they will also provide the Iraqi irregulars a nice sitting target in the middle of their own territory and they'll have a lot more firepower concentrated on them than they can concentrate back. And once they do go in, it becomes sort of like a black hole, sucking in more and more men to make the situation more tolerable, and those men have to come from somewhere, that somewhere being the ring of troops surrounding Basra. Edi
Wow, so you're defending the US Army's strategy of sending men out
to die in the dozens to grab some hilltop, and then at the end of the day,
to helicopter them back home, leaving the hilltop in control of the VietCong?

The US Army learned it's lesson well from Vietnam. Once you sieze ground,
you NEVER, EVER, GIVE IT UP.
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MKSheppard wrote: Wow, so you're defending the US Army's strategy of sending men out
to die in the dozens to grab some hilltop, and then at the end of the day,
to helicopter them back home, leaving the hilltop in control of the VietCong?

The US Army learned it's lesson well from Vietnam. Once you sieze ground,
you NEVER, EVER, GIVE IT UP.
Edit add "vietnam war-era" strategy in there....
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Post by Edi »

Because trying to hold onto it isn't a fucking viable option? How many times do I need to repeat myself? See my above post.

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Post by MKSheppard »

Edi wrote:Because trying to hold onto it isn't a fucking viable option? How many times do I need to repeat myself? See my above post.
:roll:

Ah, so you're up there with the military strategists who did the US Army's
strategic decisions during the Vietnam War.

Great way to FUCK OVER TROOP MORALE - by sending them over to grab
some piece of land, and DIE for that piece of land, and then at the crack
of dawn, leave, and give that fucking piece of land back to the Iraqis...
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Post by Warspite »

MKSheppard wrote:Then explain why the brits are going into Basra under the cover of night,
shooting up some people, capturing a warehouse, and then GOING
BACK ACROSS THE RIVER, AND GIVING UP THE GROUND THEY
CAPTURED!
Shep, you're not getting it, ground is irrelevant.
The British have control on their supply lines (ocasional ambushes excepted), they have mobility, the have the power to level Basrah.
But, they are fighting assymetrical warfare, the enemy is not clearly seen as such, the opposing lines aren't clearly defined as such, the important aspect is effect.
Effect on the morale, effect on the population, effect on the propaganda, all with the minimum casualties afforded, if only raids can be carried, so be it, as long as it can have a lasting EFFECT.
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Warspite wrote: And this is the focus point. If the British took Basrah in the early days, the militias would go underground, and for the next months (years?) there would be frequent news of attacks by a fleeting militia that couldn't be traced amongst a population. If they continue operations, they are vulnerable.

It all comes down to "Hearts and Minds", the population see the British are there for good, will help them, and in turn, they help the British by limiting militia operations.
:roll:

So you're using a hypothetical future threat of some die hard saddamites
to justify this glacial pace of advance with troops going across the river
to capture a warehouse, and then at dawn, to hand the warehouse back
to the Iraqis?
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