UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

[Ralin]

Man. Is someone suggesting that the Ukrainian population collectively wants to surrender to Russia as opposed to keep fighting? Because I feel like that is being implied but not said.

[LadyTevar]

Man. Is someone suggesting that the Ukrainian population collectively wants to surrender to Russia as opposed to keep fighting? Because I feel like that is being implied but not said.

I feel like Sisko is being disingenious with his sources.

[Broomstick]

Man. Is someone suggesting that the Ukrainian population collectively wants to surrender to Russia as opposed to keep fighting? Because I feel like that is being implied but not said.

I hear that from people from time to time, implying somehow that most of them are being forced to keep fighting when they'd rather do something else.

Hey, a couple million Ukrainians have opted to go elsewhere. There are now Ukrainian refugees all over the world.

And any Ukrainian who thinks they could get a better deal from the Russians can go over to that side - and some have.

Most have stayed in Ukraine and there still appears to be a very large proportion of the population still willing to fight.

The notion that all Ukrainians have to move in lockstep, or that because some individuals don't want to fight (for whatever reason) that somehow the rest want to give up is stupid and a fallacy. It feeds into Russian propaganda that somehow all Ukrainians are puppets and incapable of independent thought or action and need to be "rescued".

[Solauren]

I can find nothing online to collaborate Siskos claims about banned political parties.

[Zaune]

And even if you could, I think it'd ea bit of a reach to describe banning political parties that are actively trying to help Russia take over the country some sort of assault on democracy.

[The Sisko]

I can find nothing online to collaborate Siskos claims about banned political parties.

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Ukraine+ ... al+parties

And even if you could, I think it'd ea bit of a reach to describe banning political parties that are actively trying to help Russia take over the country some sort of assault on democracy.

Ah, so banning political parties isn't an assault on Democracy? That's the most hilarious horseshit cope I've ever heard.

[KraytKing]

https://x.com/NeilPHauer/status/1763163 ... 46474?s=20

The consequences of the Ukrainian failure to build a strong second defensive line behind Avdiivka over the past two years are playing out now. Russian forces have advanced 6-7km west of Avdiivka in the past week at a consistent rate.

Avdiivka was a strong fortress position built up by Ukraine for 8 years to serve as an anchor for the line outside Donetsk - its not surprising that its fall has compromised the entire area behind it.

The line was so badly compromised, it moved a whole ten klicks.

I remember why I got exhausted and left, only took fifteen minutes. This is what it tends to look like when you are strongly attacked, have a large country to retreat into, and don't burn up manpower in relentless counterattacks like the Russians did last summer. Nothing exceptional happened in Avdiivka, for either side, except maybe the Russian tunneling. That was interesting. Otherwise it was just a shithole where thousands died. And now the line has moved, and we're in the next shithole, and Ukraine isn't even drafting college-age men yet.

There is no successful conclusion of this war for anyone, by any metric. The best thing that happens is Russia wakes up to the immense opportunity cost of all the burned tanks and dead men, and gives up the ghost. Or, the push on, the cost gets bigger, and the war ends in a couple more years and a hundred more kilometers.

[The Sisko]

Man. Is someone suggesting that the Ukrainian population collectively wants to surrender to Russia as opposed to keep fighting? Because I feel like that is being implied but not said.

I feel like Sisko is being disingenious with his sources.

Sure, the people who 'disagree' can't use google, but I'm the one being disingenuous. How are my 'sources' disingenuous? Because they're not crowing about how Russia's fleet is in tatters while Ukraine's land is slowly destroyed and bathed in the blood of their own citizens?

Man. Is someone suggesting that the Ukrainian population collectively wants to surrender to Russia as opposed to keep fighting? Because I feel like that is being implied but not said.

No, I'm flat-out saying that Ukraine is a military dictatorship, it has been since the government was overthrown, which led to an invasion, which led to a dictatorship. This is less complicated than the plot of The Phantom Menace and it's better understood. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

[Broomstick]

So... you're saying at this point the people of Ukraine have a choice between the dictatorship of Vladimir Putin or the dictatorship of Zelenskyy? That is most unfortunate for them. Of course, there is the issue that Zelenskyy is at least somewhat motivate to NOT massacre Ukrainians by the boatload whereas Putin's side has been doing a very good job of that, as well as stealing children. Also Putin has flat out stated one of his goals is the elimination of Ukrainian identity. Hmm... is it possible that Ukrainians, given those two alternatives, might prefer Zelenskyy over Putin? Might think the current "military dictatorship" is still preferable to a dictatorship intent on wiping them out as a people?

If the Ukrainians wish to continue to fight then let them.

[Zaune]

Ah, so banning political parties isn't an assault on Democracy?

Well, it depends on the context, doesn't it. Banning political parties for being too successful and upsetting the status quo? Yeah, that's a problem. Banning political parties for commiting or conspiring to commit acts that meet the textbook definition of sedition, treason, domestic terrorism or some combination thereof? Not so much, at least as long as there's proof beyond reasonable doubt that a plurality of party officers knew about and approved of those acts.

[Ralin]

Not all dictatorships are created equal. Lincoln* was basically a dictator in the US and seems to have considered himself one in the classical sense of being a leader with absolute power who would step down when the crisis was over and all indications are he probably would have. Given the circumstances and what's happened to Ukraine I'm going to give Zelensky all the benefit of assuming President Jew Nazis is the same until the country is not being invaded.

*Yes you, put your hand down, I know the US still held elections during the war.

Ah, so banning political parties isn't an assault on Democracy?

Well, it depends on the context, doesn't it. Banning political parties for being too successful and upsetting the status quo? Yeah, that's a problem. Banning political parties for commiting or conspiring to commit acts that meet the textbook definition of sedition, treason, domestic terrorism or some combination thereof? Not so much, at least as long as there's proof beyond reasonable doubt that a plurality of party officers knew about and approved of those acts.

You know what's definitely an assault on Democracy? Russian invasion.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Hey Sisko, seeing as you're so determined to hijack this thread into a discussion on the Euromaidan and how the war is all the USA's fault, how about you create a separate thread on the subject as has been suggested to you already?

[Solauren]

Hey Sisko, seeing as you're so determined to hijack this thread into a discussion on the Euromaidan and how the war is all the USA's fault, how about you create a separate thread on the subject as has been suggested to you already?

Because he's probably a Russian apologist and he's not paid to do that?

[Vympel]

The line was so badly compromised, it moved a whole ten klicks.

I defy you to find a single serious western commentator who doesn't think the fall of Avdiivka didn't compromise Ukrainian defences. Ukraine has been steadily retreating everywhere for weeks. Literally noone is now saying Ukraine is doing well except clueless copers online.

I remember why I got exhausted and left, only took fifteen minutes. This is what it tends to look like when you are strongly attacked, have a large country to retreat into, and don't burn up manpower in relentless counterattacks like the Russians did last summer. Nothing exceptional happened in Avdiivka, for either side, except maybe the Russian tunneling. That was interesting. Otherwise it was just a shithole where thousands died. And now the line has moved, and we're in the next shithole, and Ukraine isn't even drafting college-age men yet.

Pure nonsense. There have been many articles talking about what a disaster Avdiivka was for Ukraine and explicitly rubbishing this obvious cope narrative that nothing 'exceptional' happened. Its collapse was a debacle, not a well organised planned withdrawal. It's complete bullshit to claim that Ukraine merely "retreated" or that this is something they regularly do, as you try to imply here - they actually repeatedly stay in hopeless positions long after they should've withdrawn to preserve manpower, as they have been repeatedly criticised for same by their allies, most notably in the case of Bakhmut and Avdiivka.

The less said about insane horseshit like what happened last summer - during Ukraine's defeated counteroffensive - that it was actually Russia burning up manpower, the better. Its like you're posting from the Bizarro Universe.

[bilateralrope]

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Ukraine+ ... al+parties

Who are gprivate.com ?

How have they avoided being sued for their knockoff Google branding ?

[The Sisko]

Hey Sisko, seeing as you're so determined to hijack this thread into a discussion on the Euromaidan and how the war is all the USA's fault, how about you create a separate thread on the subject as has been suggested to you already?

Not my fault you keep bringing it up. All I said was the verifiable truth that Ukraine is a military dictatorship. For reasons that are absolutely impossible to determine, this again triggered the usual bullshit about how anyone who doesn't toe the party line on Ukraine is a Russian shill, etc. Don't you ever get tired of this shit?

So... you're saying at this point the people of Ukraine have a choice between the dictatorship of Vladimir Putin or the dictatorship of Zelenskyy? That is most unfortunate for them. Of course, there is the issue that Zelenskyy is at least somewhat motivate to NOT massacre Ukrainians by the boatload whereas Putin's side has been doing a very good job of that,

Yes, this is the nature of making choices and then living with them. As for your last point, sure, the genocide in the Donbas never happened, Ukraine isn't filled with Genocide-worshipping smucks in a serious way, and this conversation continues to grow more insidious and ridiculous the longer it continues. The next person that accuses me of being a paid shill had better produce some actual fucking evidence. Period.

as well as stealing children. Also Putin has flat out stated one of his goals is the elimination of Ukrainian identity. Hmm... is it possible that Ukrainians, given those two alternatives, might prefer Zelenskyy over Putin? Might think the current "military dictatorship" is still preferable to a dictatorship intent on wiping them out as a people?

If the Ukrainians wish to continue to fight then let them.

An easy way to find this out would be elections, but since we're not doing those, I guess they'll fight whether they want to or not, which was always the way it was going to be given how we decided that a crippled, ruined Ukraine was preferable to a Russian one.

Ah, so banning political parties isn't an assault on Democracy?

Well, it depends on the context, doesn't it. Banning political parties for being too successful and upsetting the status quo? Yeah, that's a problem. Banning political parties for commiting or conspiring to commit acts that meet the textbook definition of sedition, treason, domestic terrorism or some combination thereof? Not so much, at least as long as there's proof beyond reasonable doubt that a plurality of party officers knew about and approved of those acts.

"Is it undemocratic to ban political parties"
"Well, it really depends"
It may be a good idea, or necessary to protect the government, but Democratic? Are you insane?

Not all dictatorships are created equal. Lincoln* was basically a dictator in the US and seems to have considered himself one in the classical sense of being a leader with absolute power who would step down when the crisis was over and all indications are he probably would have. Given the circumstances and what's happened to Ukraine I'm going to give Zelensky all the benefit of assuming President Jew Nazis is the same until the country is not being invaded.

*Yes you, put your hand down, I know the US still held elections during the war.

Added some emphasis, you know, just for fun. Nice try, but I'm not getting drawn into a discussion about Abe. Lincoln trampled all over rights to fight the South too.

Ah, so banning political parties isn't an assault on Democracy?

Well, it depends on the context, doesn't it. Banning political parties for being too successful and upsetting the status quo? Yeah, that's a problem. Banning political parties for commiting or conspiring to commit acts that meet the textbook definition of sedition, treason, domestic terrorism or some combination thereof? Not so much, at least as long as there's proof beyond reasonable doubt that a plurality of party officers knew about and approved of those acts

You know what's definitely an assault on Democracy? Russian invasion.

Woah, an invasion is an assault? Holy shit! Did anyone mention Russia bad?

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Ukraine+ ... al+parties

Who are gprivate.com ?

How have they avoided being sued for their knockoff Google branding ?

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=who+is+gprivate.com

Hey Sisko, seeing as you're so determined to hijack this thread into a discussion on the Euromaidan and how the war is all the USA's fault, how about you create a separate thread on the subject as has been suggested to you already?

Because he's probably a Russian apologist and he's not paid to do that?

Where's your evidence that I'm paid by the Russians for anything, you worthless shitheel?

[KraytKing]

The line was so badly compromised, it moved a whole ten klicks.

I defy you to find a single serious western commentator who doesn't think the fall of Avdiivka didn't compromise Ukrainian defences. Ukraine has been steadily retreating everywhere for weeks. Literally noone is now saying Ukraine is doing well except clueless copers online.

Alright, yes, I'll give you this one. In the literal sense, Ukrainian defenses have been compromised due to the loss of Avdiivka. That was a defensive position, it was lost, and so it is true by definition that defenses have been compromised.

However, the implication that I took from your post a month ago, which may not have been charitable towards you I admit, was that there should exist some expectation of continued breakthrough and exploitation. The evidence of the last month is clear: the loss of Avdiivka was a tactical, not operational, victory for Russia, and resulted in Ukrainian casualties but NO larger breakthrough. Russian forces advanced quickly-by the standards of this war alone-for several days, and then reached the next line of defensible towns and were slowed to a crawl. Those towns have since largely been captured, at a visually confirmed ENORMOUS cost in machinery and, it is likely, manpower, but the Russian advance has not resumed the pace exhibited in late February and early March. To me, the most likely explanation is that Ukraine abandoned the non-defensible terrain during a hasty retreat, then was able to buy enough time in Orlivka, Tonenke, and Lastochkyne to emplace some defensive positions further west. Russia did NOT have the capacity to both break through Avdiivka AND effect a proper exploitation maneuver, despite indications that Avdiivka was more troublesome for the Ukrainian defenders than some would admit.

Ukrainian retreat across the front is generally what you would expect to see from a military in defensive posture that is a close match for its enemy. Holding positions against a positionally superior enemy is not advisable, as you yourself point out with regards to Bakhmut and other defensive battles. Nothing in the last two months indicates Russian capacity to inflict a major breakthrough, save Avdiivka; as outlined above, the breakthrough in Avdiivka indicates that even when the Russian military can effect a breakthrough, it lacks capacity for exploitation. The risk of Ukrainian collapse lowers further.

I remember why I got exhausted and left, only took fifteen minutes. This is what it tends to look like when you are strongly attacked, have a large country to retreat into, and don't burn up manpower in relentless counterattacks like the Russians did last summer. Nothing exceptional happened in Avdiivka, for either side, except maybe the Russian tunneling. That was interesting. Otherwise it was just a shithole where thousands died. And now the line has moved, and we're in the next shithole, and Ukraine isn't even drafting college-age men yet.

Pure nonsense. There have been many articles talking about what a disaster Avdiivka was for Ukraine and explicitly rubbishing this obvious cope narrative that nothing 'exceptional' happened. Its collapse was a debacle, not a well organised planned withdrawal. It's complete bullshit to claim that Ukraine merely "retreated" or that this is something they regularly do, as you try to imply here - they actually repeatedly stay in hopeless positions long after they should've withdrawn to preserve manpower, as they have been repeatedly criticised for same by their allies, most notably in the case of Bakhmut and Avdiivka.

The Ukrainian retreat confirmed what we already know--that Ukraine is generally reluctant to abandon a position unless forced. The Russian tunneling operation takes time to pay off--they had time to gather exploitation forces. Ukraine, once COMPELLED to abandon Avdiivka by total collapse, potentially suffered a few hundred captured and YET was able to completely blunt Russian exploitation.

Objectively, the loss of Avdiivka in chaos is a bad thing for Ukraine, no contest. But in terms of what it reveals to us non-military observers, I find it promising. It was a pell-mell retreat, there might have been a pocket formed, and YET, Russia could not advance further. Dozens of armored vehicles, doubtless the armored reserve gathered for exploitation, have been observed destroyed in the small towns to the west. If this is the success Russia achieves when breakthrough aligns fairly well, what should we expect across the front?

The less said about insane horseshit like what happened last summer - during Ukraine's defeated counteroffensive - that it was actually Russia burning up manpower, the better. Its like you're posting from the Bizarro Universe.

I did not imply that Russia was burning up manpower RATHER than Ukraine. Only that it is broadly known that relentless counterattacks are usually detrimental, especially when the enemy has local artillery superiority. If you are attacked, and you have strategic depth, then it is usually advisable to take the hit and let the enemy keep moving. Incremental gains are seldom important, as the Pro-Rus crowd has been shouting all year.

God fucking damn it.

[wautd]

Man. Is someone suggesting that the Ukrainian population collectively wants to surrender to Russia as opposed to keep fighting? Because I feel like that is being implied but not said.

I feel like Sisko is being disingenious with his sources.

Sure, the people who 'disagree' can't use google, but I'm the one being disingenuous. How are my 'sources' disingenuous? Because they're not crowing about how Russia's fleet is in tatters while Ukraine's land is slowly destroyed and bathed in the blood of their own citizens?

Man. Is someone suggesting that the Ukrainian population collectively wants to surrender to Russia as opposed to keep fighting? Because I feel like that is being implied but not said.

No, I'm flat-out saying that Ukraine is a military dictatorship, it has been since the government was overthrown, which led to an invasion, which led to a dictatorship. This is less complicated than the plot of The Phantom Menace and it's better understood. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

There was no coup in 2014 but a revolution, and if it had a military dictatorship then Zelensky wouldn't have been democratically elected in 2019
And even if it was a dictatorship, it still wouldn't justify Russia's dictatorship to invade and destroy it. Ukraine isn't a colony or vassal state of Russia anymore

the genocide in the Donbas never happened

Indeed it didn't

[Zaune]

"Is it undemocratic to ban political parties"
"Well, it really depends"
It may be a good idea, or necessary to protect the government, but Democratic? Are you insane?

There's nothing undemocratic about banning a political party that's refusing to abide by the rules and conventions of a democratic system. You can debate where exactly the line should be drawn, certainly, but there have to be some standards otherwise your democracy isn't going to last long.

[Broomstick]

Don't many nations in Europe ban Nazi parties? Meaning Nazi-like folks have to come up with different names for more or less the same thing.

The US is a bit of an outlier for allowing the existence of parties that openly call for the destruction of the current government, such as Neo-Nazi parties and communist parties, and for insisting we hold our regularly scheduled elections no matter what is going on.

Other nations are less lenient, and other nations do not, in fact, have elections on a ridged schedule. Even if Ukraine did hold elections next week I expect there would be plenty of internet "geniuses" who would then claim they were rigged regardless of outcome.

[LadyTevar]

TAKE THE TOPIC OF ELECTIONS AND POSSIBLE BANNED PARTIES TO A NEW THREAD. THIS IS NOT A REQUEST. ANY POSTS ABOUT THAT TOPIC POSTED IN THE NEXT 24HRS WILL BE REMOVED FROM THIS THREAD.

AGAIN, THIS IS NOT A REQUEST. Y'ALL WANNA ARGUE THE TOPIC, TAKE IT TO A NEW THREAD.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Hey Sisko, seeing as you're so determined to hijack this thread into a discussion on the Euromaidan and how the war is all the USA's fault, how about you create a separate thread on the subject as has been suggested to you already?

Not my fault you keep bringing it up. All I said was the verifiable truth that Ukraine is a military dictatorship. For reasons that are absolutely impossible to determine, this again triggered the usual bullshit about how anyone who doesn't toe the party line on Ukraine is a Russian shill, etc. Don't you ever get tired of this shit?

I believe I speak for the overwhelming majority when I say the shit we're tired of is your obviously pro-Russian shit and blatant victim-blaming of Ukraine and not the actual aggressors in this invasion, you know, Russia. So you can take your bullshit and stick it in a new thread, like you've just been told. I'm sure there are one or two other Russian bots who would love to agree with you.

US transfers thousands of seized Iranian guns, rocket launchers and munitions to Ukraine

The US transferred thousands of machine guns, sniper rifles, rocket launchers and hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition seized from Iran to Ukraine last week, US Central Command announced on Tuesday.

Ukraine has been suffering from shortages of weapons and munitions on the battlefield in its war against Russia, with the US unable to send more equipment from its own stockpiles until more funding is approved by Congress.

CENTCOM said the materiel transferred to Ukraine is enough to equip one Ukrainian brigade — around 4,000 personnel — with small-arms rifles. “These weapons will help Ukraine defend against Russia’s invasion,” CENTCOM said in a statement.

The munitions were originally seized by the US military and its partners “from four separate transiting stateless vessels between 22 May 2021 to 15 Feb 2023,” but the US government did not obtain ownership of the equipment via the Justice Department’s civil forfeiture process until December of last year, CENTCOM said.

It is not the first time the US has transferred seized Iranian military equipment to the Ukrainians. The US transferred over one million rounds of seized Iranian ammunition to the Ukrainian armed forces in October, CNN previously reported.

Over the past year, the US Navy has seized thousands of Iranian assault rifles and more than one million rounds of ammunition from vessels used by Iran to ship weapons to the Iran-backed Houthi rebels in Yemen. The seizures, frequently carried out with regional partner forces, target small stateless vessels on routes historically used to smuggle weapons to the Houthis.

For the last year, the Biden administration has been working to legally send the seized weapons, which are stored in CENTCOM facilities across the Middle East, to the Ukrainians.

[Rogue 9]

To keep Ukraine safe from its autocratic neighbor, we forced it into a situation where it would be at war, and now it's destroying it's own precarious and corrupt democracy while millions are displaced and hundreds of thousands die and this is the sane, preferable outcome to Russian oligarchs giving Ukraine $10 billion in 2014... WHY?

Who's "we?" Last I checked, no western country is in command of Russia's military. Russia's invasion is of Russia's making.

Ah, so banning political parties isn't an assault on Democracy? That's the most hilarious horseshit cope I've ever heard.

Tell that to Germany.

[bilateralrope]

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=who+is+gprivate.com

Lets go through the results it gave me, in order:
https://who.is/
https://www.whois.com/whois/
https://www.gprivate.com/about.html
https://www.domainz.net.nz/whois/
https://www.name.com/whois-lookup

Not one of them even attempts to answer my questions.

Next time you think a search query will answer a question, I suggest you check before posting the link that shows how lazy you are. Oh and a better search engine will probably help.

[madd0c0t0r2]

Do we take Sisko returning to years old, pretty laughable talking points as evidence that there's no positive news coming out of Russia?
Ie this is what their 'you're interested in this, so you may like that' algorithm news feed is currently feeding them.

I know for sure I'm getting tiny puff pieces on drone warfare and naff all else