UKRAINE WAR - 2024 thread

[LadyTevar]

I wager aerius is referring to the conflict in Donbas, where Ukraine fired rockets into heavily civilian areas.

Was that before or after the "seperationists" in Donbas fired a missile that took out a civilian airplane?

Concurrently.

Odd to put separationists in quotes. Why is that?

Because there were some rumors that those doing the fighting against Ukraine were Russian operators, not native Donbas. That the whole Donbas uprising was Russia provacators. I don't know how true that was, how many of Donbas' agitators were Ukrainian and how many were or saw themselves as Russian. I just know that they claimed to be Seperationists, and thus the quotes.

[aerius]

Personally I'd like to hear aerius elaborate on what he thinks Lenin's mistakes that need correcting were. Because it sounds an awful lot like he means not committing more genocide against the Ukrainians sooner.

We begin with history, the last 400 years should be good enough.



Note how the Donbas region has been Russian since the beginning and the Crimea & everything east of the Dniepr river has also been Russian since before America was even a nation. There is no Ukraine. What is now the Ukraine is split up between Russia & Austria, and later on the Austro-Hungarian and Polish-Lithuanian empires.



Skip ahead to just after WW1 and this is what we have. Still no Ukraine. Russia and the Austro-Hungarians share the land which is now the Ukraine.



Finally we have the Ukraine with the borders as drawn by Lenin. A bunch of land which has been Russian for 250 to over 350 years is now Ukrainian. This was not done by accident, the Soviets took a page out of the colonialist handbook. Instead of drawing the border along ethnic & cultural lines, they drew it across those lines so that large chunks of those populations would end up on the wrong side of the border, the theory being that if the colony revolts they'd have their own internal conflicts to deal with which makes it harder to fight the colonial power. Instead of putting the border somewhere around the Dniepr, they put it much further east which placed a lot of Russian land and people inside the Ukraine's borders. That was the mistake, along with giving away the Crimea in 1954.

Where Ukraine fucked up is thinking they could do whatever they wanted inside their own borders, including oppressing and killing thousands of Russians on formerly Russian lands which were given to them by the Soviets. Russia views the land, people, industry, and resources which were given to the Ukraine as a gift to their fellow socialists during Soviet times, the Ukrainians doing what they've done in the past 10 years is simply unacceptable. Ukraine is now being demilitarized and de-Nazified, and it will also have its borders redrawn to something which is safer and more stable for all Russians, including the ones on what is now Ukrainian land.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Had you omitted that last paragraph you might have had a point, but then you finish with "Ukraine is now being demilitarized and de-Nazified". Just like every other pro-Russian asshole parroting the Kremlin line about their "Special military operation".

[Zwinmar]

Ukraine fucked up is thinking they could do whatever they wanted inside their own borders

Really, that is what you are going with? Fuck off Russian bot.

[Solauren]

Actually, I'm wondering if Aerius and J's accounts were hijacked.

It's either that, or their brains have been heavily modified, if not damaged, by years of narcotics.

[Dominus Atheos]

Actually, I'm wondering if Aerius and J's accounts were hijacked.

It's either that, or their brains have been heavily modified, if not damaged, by years of narcotics.

Remember their "peak oil" obsession? This kind of stuff is not new for them.

[Solauren]

Actually, I'm wondering if Aerius and J's accounts were hijacked.

It's either that, or their brains have been heavily modified, if not damaged, by years of narcotics.

Remember their "peak oil" obsession? This kind of stuff is not new for them.

Brain damage then?

[Gandalf]

Ukraine fucked up is thinking they could do whatever they wanted inside their own borders

Really, that is what you are going with? Fuck off Russian bot.

Countries don't have universal rights within their own borders though, so I fail to see the issue here.

[Ralin]

Ukraine fucked up is thinking they could do whatever they wanted inside their own borders

Really, that is what you are going with? Fuck off Russian bot.

Countries don't have universal rights within their own borders though, so I fail to see the issue here.

And Russia has no rights within Ukraine's borders. Fuck off, troll. At least aerius actually comes out and admits he's cheering for Ukraine to be brought to heel instead of playing your dumb "I'm just asking questions because I don't understand~!" bullshit.

[Gandalf]

Really, that is what you are going with? Fuck off Russian bot.

Countries don't have universal rights within their own borders though, so I fail to see the issue here.

And Russia has no rights within Ukraine's borders. Fuck off, troll. At least aerius actually comes out and admits he's cheering for Ukraine to be brought to heel instead of playing your dumb "I'm just asking questions because I don't understand~!" bullshit.

I think I've been through this before. SDN has a lot of people communicating across class, culture, and so on. Not all communication styles match because that's just humanity. So the reason I open with questions is because I value clarity, which better facilitates dialogue. If you dislike it you're free to go fuck yourself.

[Zwinmar]

"just asking questions" yeah hear that all the time from the Magat propagandists. Funny how you bots never do the same for Russia, almost like your high on their shit.

[Vympel]

"just asking questions" yeah hear that all the time from the Magat propagandists. Funny how you bots never do the same for Russia, almost like your high on their shit.

Oh my god knock it off. Yeah dude, a guy whose been on SDN for 22 fucking years is a deepcover Russian bot. JFC, do you even hear yourself?

[aerius]

And Russia has no rights within Ukraine's borders. Fuck off, troll. At least aerius actually comes out and admits he's cheering for Ukraine to be brought to heel instead of playing your dumb "I'm just asking questions because I don't understand~!" bullshit.

Are you really going to argue that all nations have inviolable rights within their own borders? Do you really want to go there? Go think that one all the way through and punch yourself in the face for being a dumbass if your answer is yes.

[aerius]

I think I've been through this before. SDN has a lot of people communicating across class, culture, and so on. Not all communication styles match because that's just humanity. So the reason I open with questions is because I value clarity, which better facilitates dialogue. If you dislike it you're free to go fuck yourself.

It's interesting, other than The Sisko, everyone in this thread who is accused of being a "Russia bot" or "Putin puppet" for going against the Western media narrative has been on this board for over 20 years, directly taken part in the most vicious flame wars ever seen here and come out on the winning side.

In terms of asking questions so we can actually understand each other's positions, I agree. It's simply assumed that anyone showing any form of support or sympathy for the Russian viewpoint is a "Russia bot" who supports Putin, loves Russia, and wants Russia to win and rule the world. Which is complete fucking bullshit. It's just as braindead as calling someone an anti-Semitic terrorist supporter for saying he understands why Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th last year.

With respect to the Russo-Ukrainian war, I don't particularly care for either side, it's like choosing between the Dems and GoP in the US, one of them is slightly less shitty and that's about it. What does interest me is how the war is being carried out by Russia & its allies on one side and Ukraine & NATO on the other, along with how it's reported and its influence on the ongoing shift in geopolitical alignments. We could be looking at something which is just as significant as the fall of the Soviet Union, maybe even more so, I think it's important for us to understand what's actually happening rather than just following the media narrative and going "Russia bad, Ukraine good" while cheerleading the Ukraine all the way to its death.

[Ralin]

Are you really going to argue that all nations have inviolable rights within their own borders? Do you really want to go there? Go think that one all the way through and punch yourself in the face for being a dumbass if your answer is yes.

No, I'm saying that Russia has no rights within other countries' borders. As you know and are pretending not to as part of your trolling bullshit. Now go sit at the children's table.

[Zwinmar]

Just like with the Magat assholes I automatically assume anyone who is a Russian apologist has no interest in truth or dialogue. Both groups tend to over simplify and straight out lie to get their position across or that you are fine with genocide becuase it supports your perverted theories. You want to talk about the messed up shit that other countries do? I'm good with that, what I am not good with is you assholes using it as an excuse to promote Russian bullshit. All I see out of a few of you is the revisionist history that Putin and his cumdumpster apologist spout. I don't know if you have a form of Russian Exceptionalism or what, but its provably false by just watching a single t34 rolling down red square.

[aerius]

No, I'm saying that Russia has no rights within other countries' borders. As you know and are pretending not to as part of your trolling bullshit. Now go sit at the children's table.

Are you going to apply that universally or is it only Russia?

[vakundok]

I think what I am annoyed with is the "Ukrainians deserved, if not outright forced it" attitude. And not much evidence for that "deserving" beyond repeating Russian statements.
I remember Russia reporting that they found and destroyed CIA backed up bio weapon labors. (Well, they also stated that the war was started by Ukrainian troops crossing the border and attacking the "happen to be" amassed Russian forces.) I do not remember them announcing the finding of mass graves as evidence for the so called genocide, even if we assume the ICJ was biased, not to find such. https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/f ... -00-en.pdf

Is Ukraine a state of saints? Sure not. Still, this war is solely to take control of territory (take back a gift, if you wish). That it can happen practically at the border of Europe, makes it a complete shock. Then the US/NATO, thought (in the West) to be the world's police (good or bad, different question), proving a total paper tiger, unable to stop it.

Attacking a country to gain territory is bad. Blaming it on the attacked country is ashaming. Insisting that they should have just recognized their servitude, is really against my moral compass. (Also the attitude of the Hungarian government, who are now reducing the memory of 1848-49 fight for freedom to the opening three days, as the rest would be too similar to Ukraine.)

A side note about the invasion: Looking at the census data, in 1989 there were 11 million Russians, by 2001, 14 million. A 25% increase in less than half a generation, while the overall population was declining, by the way.

Hoping for the Ukrainian victory is unfounded, illogical and unrealistic. If I do, it is not because I am an idiot, but because I hope that bad things can be at least stopped.

[aerius]

There's what you wish would happen in a better world, and what actually is. There are countries which are allowed to exist only until they've pissed off their neighbours enough for them to do something about it, Ukraine is one of those countries and so is Taiwan which is where my parents are from. That's the reality of our world whether we like it or not. My nation has been occupied by the Japanese & Nationalist Chinese in my parents' lifetime and will likely be ruled by mainland China sometime before I die.

Ukraine is similar, it exists because Russia allows it to. Unfortunately they made the mistake of poking the bear one too many times and here we are. Same thing would happen to Taiwan if it pisses off China too much. We can sit here and say it's wrong, undeserved, and all that other shit, but reality does not care about our feelings. If a nation persistently does things that Russia, China, or some other major power perceives as an unacceptable threat or provocation, they will take care of it at some point.

[Gandalf]

It's interesting, other than The Sisko, everyone in this thread who is accused of being a "Russia bot" or "Putin puppet" for going against the Western media narrative has been on this board for over 20 years, directly taken part in the most vicious flame wars ever seen here and come out on the winning side.

I worked in Moscow in 2016. So maybe I turned then?

With respect to the Russo-Ukrainian war, I don't particularly care for either side, it's like choosing between the Dems and GoP in the US, one of them is slightly less shitty and that's about it. What does interest me is how the war is being carried out by Russia & its allies on one side and Ukraine & NATO on the other, along with how it's reported and its influence on the ongoing shift in geopolitical alignments. We could be looking at something which is just as significant as the fall of the Soviet Union, maybe even more so, I think it's important for us to understand what's actually happening rather than just following the media narrative and going "Russia bad, Ukraine good" while cheerleading the Ukraine all the way to its death.

Yeah. The media discourse around the conflict is really the most interesting part of it for me. I would hazard a guess that after two decades of losing in the Middle East, lots of western commentators just want a win for "the good guys." So they brush aside Ukraine's issues, to make it the black/white scenario for which so many have spent so long fantasising.

An interesting fact that I like to cite is that the average Ukranian soldier is old enough to be born under Leonid Brezhnev.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Maybe because despite Russia's insisting on calling it a "special military operation", it's still an invasion and no amount of bullshit is going to change that.

[aerius]

Maybe because despite Russia's insisting on calling it a "special military operation", it's still an invasion and no amount of bullshit is going to change that.

People like you who are completely ignorant on the topic need to shut the fuck up. You don't even know why it's called a special military operation, along with its legal, political, and military implications.

[aerius]

Yeah. The media discourse around the conflict is really the most interesting part of it for me. I would hazard a guess that after two decades of losing in the Middle East, lots of western commentators just want a win for "the good guys." So they brush aside Ukraine's issues, to make it the black/white scenario for which so many have spent so long fantasising.

I remember how Westerners used to laugh at Pravda and Al Jazeera for being shameless propaganda outlets along with how Russians & Muslims could ever believe the obvious lies. Yet here we are with Western media doing the exact same thing with their reporting on the Ukraine as well as trying to excuse & cover up all the Israeli war crimes which are taking place, and the vast majority of Western folks are drinking the Kool-aid with no questions asked.

Sad part is despite its reputation in Western circles, Al Jazeera is actually a far better source of factual news than our own media outlets.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Maybe because despite Russia's insisting on calling it a "special military operation", it's still an invasion and no amount of bullshit is going to change that.

People like you who are completely ignorant on the topic need to shut the fuck up. You don't even know why it's called a special military operation, along with its legal, political, and military implications.

Fuck off you Putin apologist, you can repeat his claims he's going after Nazis until the cows come home but in actuality he's been emulating Hitler more and more. The only people who need to STFU are pro-Russian assholes like you.

[NecronLord]

[Content Removed]

Following a report I've reviewed this post. While I consider these kind of arguments immensely spurious in terms of obvious bad-faith debating (one imagines Aerius does not believe that 1624 is some sort of privileged reference year and the whole map of the world should return to its borders, this selective irredentism, reflecting Russian propaganda talking points, has a specific goal; Mr. Putin doesn't advocate retrenching the state of Russia to its 1620s borders and returning sovereignty over Siberia to its Indigenous peoples, after all and one doubts Aerius does either) such a position doesn't actually breach our debate rules as such. The reflection of Russian talking points is close to a PR7 violation, in that it is essentially calling for a war of conquest which is inevitably hateful, it's not actionable in that it is not an explicit call for genocide or racial supremacy. PR7 is quite narrowly defined.

Report closed.

I've started monitoring this thread more actively and will be keeping an eye on what people say, though. I'm keeping out of the thread to retain as much impartiality as possible but I am watching.