All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

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All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by Tribble »

The Republican dominated SCOTUS has finally dropped all pretences of protecting the people and democracy by declaring that all Republican current and ex-presidents are largely immune from criminal prosecution:
“The President Is Now a King”: The Most Blistering Lines From Dissents in the Trump Immunity Case

“Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune.”

In response to the Supreme Court’s momentous decision ruling that presidents are immune from criminal prosecution for “official” acts, Justices Sonia Sotomayor and Ketanji Brown Jackson issued blistering dissents. They blasted the reasoning of the six conservative justices who essentially created a new power for presidents. Each contended this decision poses a fundamental threat to American democracy and the rule of law.

This is how Sotomayor put it:

The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military dissenting coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune. Let the President violate the law, let him exploit the trappings of his office for personal gain, let him use his official power for evil ends. Because if he knew that he may one day face liability for breaking the law, he might not be as bold and fearless as we would like him to be. That is the majority’s message today.
Jackson made a similar and distressing point:

Thus, even a hypothetical President who admits to having ordered the assassinations of his political rivals or critics, or one who indisputably instigates an unsuccessful coup has a fair shot at getting immunity under the majority’s new Presidential accountability model.
They each argued that the conservatives, led by Chief Justice John Roberts, had elevated the presidency to something akin to royalty. Sotomayor wrote:

The relationship between the President and the people he serves has shifted irrevocably. In every use of official power, the President is now a king above the law.
Here are some of the most impassioned excerpts from their minority opinions:

Justice Sonia Sotomayor

Today’s decision to grant former Presidents criminal immunity reshapes the institution of the Presidency. It makes a mockery of the principle, foundational to our Constitution and system of Government, that no man is above the law. Relying on little more than its own misguided wisdom about the need for “bold and unhesitating action” by the President, the Court gives former President Trump all the immunity he asked for and more.

The Court now confronts a question it has never had to answer in the Nation’s history: Whether a former President enjoys immunity from federal criminal prosecution. The majority thinks he should, and so it invents an atextual, ahistorical, and unjustifiable immunity that puts the President above the law.

Whether described as presumptive or absolute, under the majority’s rule, a President’s use of any official power for any purpose, even the most corrupt, is immune from prosecution. That is just as bad as it sounds, and it is baseless. Finally, the majority declares that evidence concerning acts for which the President is immune can play no role in any criminal prosecution against him. . That holding, which will prevent the Government from using a President’s official acts to prove knowledge or intent in prosecuting private offenses, is nonsensical.

The historical evidence that exists on Presidential immunity from criminal prosecution cuts decisively against it. For instance, Alexander Hamilton wrote that former Presidents would be “liable to prosecution and punishment in the ordinary course of law.” For Hamilton, that was an important distinction between “the king of Great Britain,” who was “sacred and inviolable,” and the “President of the United States,” who “would be amenable to personal punishment and disgrace.”

This historical evidence reinforces that, from the very beginning, the presumption in this Nation has always been that no man is free to flout the criminal law. The majority fails to recognize or grapple with the lack of historical evidence for its new immunity. With nothing on its side of the ledger, the most the majority can do is claim that the historical evidence is a wash.

Our country’s history also points to an established understanding, shared by both Presidents and the Justice Department, that former Presidents are answerable to the criminal law for their official acts… Consider Watergate, for example. After the Watergate tapes revealed President Nixon’s misuse of official power to obstruct the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s investigation of the Watergate burglary, President Ford pardoned Nixon. Both Ford’s pardon and Nixon’s acceptance of the pardon necessarily “rested on the understanding that the former President faced potential criminal liability.”

Today’s Court, however, has replaced a presumption of equality before the law with a presumption that the President is above the law for all of his official acts.

Imagine a President states in an official speech that he intends to stop a political rival from passing legislation that he opposes, no matter what it takes to do so (official act). He then hires a private hitman to murder that political rival (unofficial act). Under the majority’s rule, the murder indictment could include no allegation of the President’s public admission of premeditated intent to support the mens rea of murder. That is a strange result, to say the least.

Looking beyond the fate of this particular prosecution, the long-term consequences of today’s decision are stark. The Court effectively creates a law-free zone around the President, upsetting the status quo that has existed since the Founding. This new official-acts immunity now “lies about like a loaded weapon” for any President that wishes to place his own interests, his own political survival, or his own financial gain, above the interests of the Nation.

The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military dissenting coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune. Let the President violate the law, let him exploit the trappings of his office for personal gain, let him use his official power for evil ends. Because if he knew that he may one day face liability for breaking the law, he might not be as bold and fearless as we would like him to be. That is the majority’s message today. Even if these nightmare scenarios never play out, and I pray they never do, the damage has been done. The relationship between the President and the people he serves has shifted irrevocably. In every use of official power, the President is now a king above the law.

Never in the history of our Republic has a President had reason to believe that he would be immune from criminal prosecution if he used the trappings of his office to violate the criminal law. Moving forward, however, all former Presidents will be cloaked in such immunity. If the occupant of that office misuses official power for personal gain, the criminal law that the rest of us must abide will not provide a backstop. With fear for our democracy, I dissent.

Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson

With that understanding of how our system of accountability for criminal acts ordinarily functions, it becomes much easier to see that the majority’s ruling in this case breaks new and dangerous ground. Departing from the traditional model of individual accountability, the majority has concocted something entirely different: a Presidential accountability model that creates immunity—an exemption from criminal law—applicable only to the most powerful official in our Government.

Thus, even a hypothetical President who admits to having ordered the assassinations of his political rivals or critics, or one who indisputably instigates an unsuccessful coup, has a fair shot at getting immunity under the majority’s new Presidential accountability model.

In the majority’s view, while all other citizens of the United States must do their jobs and live their lives within the confines of criminal prohibitions, the President cannot be made to do so; he must sometimes be exempt from the law’s dictates depending on the character of his conduct. Indeed, the majority holds that the President, unlike anyone else in our country, is comparatively free to engage in criminal acts in furtherance of his official duties.

[T]he Court has unilaterally altered the balance of power between the three coordinate branches of our Government as it relates to the Rule of Law, aggrandizing power in the Judiciary and the Executive, to the detriment of Congress. Second, the majority’s new Presidential accountability model undermines the constraints of the law as a deterrent for future Presidents who might otherwise abuse their power, to the detriment of us all.

After today’s ruling, the President must still “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,” yet, when acting in his official capacity, he has no obligation to follow those same laws himself.

If the structural consequences of today’s paradigm shift mark a step in the wrong direction, then the practical consequences are a five-alarm fire that threatens to consume democratic self-governance and the normal operations of our Government. The majority shoos away this possibility. (accusing the dissents of “striking a tone of chilling doom that is wholly disproportionate to what the Court actually does today”). But Justice Sotomayor makes this point plain, and I will not belabor it.

Having now cast the shadow of doubt over when—if ever—a former President will be subject to criminal liability for any criminal conduct he engages in while on duty, the majority incentivizes all future Presidents to cross the line of criminality while in office, knowing that unless they act “manifestly or palpably beyond [their] authority,” ante, they will be presumed above prosecution and punishment alike.

From this day forward, Presidents of tomorrow will be free to exercise the Commander-in-Chief powers, the foreign-affairs powers, and all the vast law enforcement powers enshrined in Article II however they please—including in ways that Congress has deemed criminal and that have potentially grave consequences for the rights and liberties of Americans.

[T]he seeds of absolute power for Presidents have been planted. And, without a doubt, absolute power corrupts absolutely. “If one man can be allowed to determine for himself what is law, every man can. That means first chaos, then tyranny.” Likewise, “f the Government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy.” I worry that, after today’s ruling, our Nation will reap what this Court has sown.

Stated simply: The Court has now declared for the first time in history that the most powerful official in the United States can (under circumstances yet to be fully determined) become a law unto himself. As we enter this uncharted territory, the People, in their wisdom, will need to remain ever attentive, consistently fulfilling their established role in our constitutional democracy, and thus collectively serving as the ultimate safeguard against any chaos spawned by this Court’s decision.

The majority of my colleagues seems to have put their trust in our Court’s ability to prevent Presidents from becoming Kings through case-by-case application of the indeterminate standards of their new Presidential accountability paradigm. I fear that they are wrong. But, for all oursakes, I hope that they are right. In the meantime, because the risks (and power) the Court has now assumed are intolerable, unwarranted, and plainly antithetical to bedrock constitutional norms, I dissent.


https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... nity-case/

Scotus decision here:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/2 ... 9_e2pg.pdf

And we all know what this court really means: When a Republican president does something (up into and including overthrowing an election and jailing and/or assassinating his political opponents), it’s an official act and therefore legal. When a Democrat president does something, it’ll always be unofficial and therefore illegal.

And of course they’re also banking on Biden not doing anything with this immunity until Trump or another Republican takes Office.

All hail our future Republican Lord Presidents!
Last edited by Tribble on 2024-07-02 05:53pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

What the actual fuck.

Seriously? This is utterly insane.
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by Rogue 9 »

It is insane, as there is no basis in the Constitution to presume such a thing, and a cursory reading of the Federalist Papers plainly shows it was the furthest thing from the founding intent. Also, the fact Trump could be prosecuted through the normal court process was the excuse to not convict him in his second impeachment. Literally nobody thought this was the case.
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by Gandalf »

Poor Nixon.

This would have been really helpful for him.
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by Tribble »

Rogue 9 wrote: 2024-07-02 06:06pm It is insane, as there is no basis in the Constitution to presume such a thing, and a cursory reading of the Federalist Papers plainly shows it was the furthest thing from the founding intent. Also, the fact Trump could be prosecuted through the normal court process was the excuse to not convict him in his second impeachment. Literally nobody thought this was the case.
Sadly, it’s not insane at all; in fact it’s a very calculated move by the Republicans.

As expected, Republicans were lying through their teeth when they excused themselves for not impeaching Trump by stating he could still be criminally charged, as if the Republican dominated SCOTUS would ever allow such a thing.

Plus, they’ve now kicked any remaining potential charges down the road well past the next election, so assuming Trump wins, they’ll promptly be dropped. And even if Trump loses and these cases go to trial, does anybody seriously expect SCOTUS to convict him?

Trying to overthrow an election to install Republican president? Neither impeachable nor criminal!

Of course, if Biden or Obama did 1/100th of this shit they be in jail right now.

And that’s the point: even Republican Judges have now abandoned all pretence of being democratic and any shape or fashion, and are now openly embracing a Republican dictatorship. They see where the winds are blowing, and for one reason or another they want to make sure that they are part of it.

I wouldn’t be surprised if moving forward democratic candidates winning an election are considered de-facto fraudulent, justifying Republicans overturning the results to ensure their candidate gets in. After all, who is there to stop them?

How does American democracy survive if one of the major parties is that committed to overthrowing it?
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by Zaune »

President Biden could do the absolute funniest thing he's ever done in his life right now by having Trump put against a wall and shot as an "official act" of his presidency.

Not saying it's a good idea, just that it'd be really, really funny.
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by Solauren »

Zaune wrote: 2024-07-02 08:32pm President Biden could do the absolute funniest thing he's ever done in his life right now by having Trump put against a wall and shot as an "official act" of his presidency.

Not saying it's a good idea, just that it'd be really, really funny.
Funnier -
Removing all the SCOTUS judges, appoint replacements that will go Biden's way.
Have Trump arrested for treason, and convicted by this SCOTUS. Have the people that supported his 2nd nomination dealt with the same way.
Then have them reverse all the decisions that old SCOTUS made, in order, saving this one for last.
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Can the president even do that, remove SCOTUS judges he doesn't like?
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by Solauren »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-07-03 02:07pm Can the president even do that, remove SCOTUS judges he doesn't like?
According to this ruling....
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by bilateralrope »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-07-03 02:07pm Can the president even do that, remove SCOTUS judges he doesn't like?
Assassinating them would be an official act. So by their ruling he could. Then pardon the assassins.

Impeachment is unlikely to be possible even with the best projections for Congress. Though increasing the size of SCOTUS seems much more likely given the power grab they have made with their latest batch of rulings.
Solauren wrote: 2024-07-02 09:36pm
Funnier -
Removing all the SCOTUS judges, appoint replacements that will go Biden's way.
Have Trump arrested for treason, and convicted by this SCOTUS. Have the people that supported his 2nd nomination dealt with the same way.
Then have them reverse all the decisions that old SCOTUS made, in order, saving this one for last.
I'm not sure how this gives Biden the power to order Trump arrested. Assassinated, sure. But not arrested.
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by Lost Soal »

bilateralrope wrote: 2024-07-03 03:56pm
Solauren wrote: 2024-07-02 09:36pm
Funnier -
Removing all the SCOTUS judges, appoint replacements that will go Biden's way.
Have Trump arrested for treason, and convicted by this SCOTUS. Have the people that supported his 2nd nomination dealt with the same way.
Then have them reverse all the decisions that old SCOTUS made, in order, saving this one for last.
I'm not sure how this gives Biden the power to order Trump arrested. Assassinated, sure. But not arrested.
Designate him an Enemy Combatant.
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Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

bilateralrope wrote: 2024-07-03 03:56pm
EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2024-07-03 02:07pm Can the president even do that, remove SCOTUS judges he doesn't like?
Assassinating them would be an official act. So by their ruling he could. Then pardon the assassins.
I meant removed as in fired, not as in murdered. Not that it couldn't happen to a nicer group of individuals :lol:
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Lost Soal wrote: 2024-07-03 04:11pm
bilateralrope wrote: 2024-07-03 03:56pm
Solauren wrote: 2024-07-02 09:36pm
Funnier -
Removing all the SCOTUS judges, appoint replacements that will go Biden's way.
Have Trump arrested for treason, and convicted by this SCOTUS. Have the people that supported his 2nd nomination dealt with the same way.
Then have them reverse all the decisions that old SCOTUS made, in order, saving this one for last.
I'm not sure how this gives Biden the power to order Trump arrested. Assassinated, sure. But not arrested.
Designate him an Enemy Combatant.
Well he is an enemy of democracy after all :mrgreen:
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by bilateralrope »

Lost Soal wrote: 2024-07-03 04:11pm
bilateralrope wrote: 2024-07-03 03:56pm
Solauren wrote: 2024-07-02 09:36pm
Funnier -
Removing all the SCOTUS judges, appoint replacements that will go Biden's way.
Have Trump arrested for treason, and convicted by this SCOTUS. Have the people that supported his 2nd nomination dealt with the same way.
Then have them reverse all the decisions that old SCOTUS made, in order, saving this one for last.
I'm not sure how this gives Biden the power to order Trump arrested. Assassinated, sure. But not arrested.
Designate him an Enemy Combatant.
How does that work in the face of a SCOTUS that doesn't care about the law ?
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by Batman »

I think that was supposed to be in conjunction with Biden having replaced SCOTUS.
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by Zwinmar »

Don't think it really matters who it is now who grabs that power, we are on a fast track to a dictatorship. Could be Biden as that temptation is very much there. If Trump 'wins' he will there is no doubt he will grab it.
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by Solauren »

Then, Ladies and Gentlemen, I say this as one of your northern neighbours -
You better get everyone you can to vote Biden in for a second term. There is less a chance of a dictatorship under him then there is Trump.
And Biden's would probably be more biegn.

Also, we might close the border to keep the rift-raff out ;)
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by Batman »

Also, I Biden dictatorship might also move the US a good towards sanity about things like climate and infrastructure .
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Re: All hail our Lord President! - SCOTUS

Post by Solauren »

Batman wrote: 2024-07-03 09:33pm Also, I Biden dictatorship might also move the US a good towards sanity about things like climate and infrastructure .
Hence, 'biegn'
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