Reversing the slow decline of SD.NET

[Solauren]

Hello Everyone.

Sir Bobalot and I came up with this, and sent it to Lady Tev.
Lady Tev replied back send it to Dalton
Sent it to Dalton, and nothing. It's been several weeks at that.

So, I’m posting it publicaly.

Sir Bobalot and I are concerned about the slow decline of the SBN forum.

We are hoping to slow or even reverse this decline by proposing a general amnesty for banned users excluding the worst offenders or those kicked out by Mike directly (i.e. the racists, Stewie at SDI, Darkstar, etc.)

The draft proposal.
1. A new imperial senate to handle than the "cooling off" bans and shoulder more of the workload with this proposal.
2. All trolling/being annoying bans are now temp bans of 7 - 10 days, during which a poll is run in the senate to decide if the ban should be longer, with the following options:
a. 1 month (to be used when it's just a single thread that's problematic, i.e the most recent Israeli thread that had a few posters basically acting like propaganda puppets)
b. 3 months
c. 6 months
d. 1 year
e. Permaban
3. Second offence shortly after restoration increases the severity (i.e. if the normal period of 3 months would be increase to 6 months)
4. Publicly daring the staff to ban is a automatic 1 year ban, with the vote being 'Current 1 Year is enough, vs Permaban'
We were hoping that the moderation team could consider this proposal.

Best regards,
bobalot and Solauren

Why am I posting it publically?
At minimum, I'm hoping to wake SD.Net of out it's 'dormancy'. At most, I'm hoping to give whatever needs a swift kick in the ass, a swift kick in the ass.

I've been on this board for 23 years. How many boards out there can say they are that old, without being an incredibly focused (usually RPGs or Porn) board? I'd like to see it become more active again.

Otherwise, I might have to start copying the fanfics I have bookmarked into Word Documents for when the board closes down.

[Solauren]

(Appendium by Sol)
Another concern is users that left when a friend was banned for annoying one or two 'important' users, or that got sick of someone always skating the rules, or talking a mod that is a friend of theirs into unbanning them.

(Appendium by Sol)
Proposal #5
There is no 'Senate Whip' this time around. So long as there is a minimum number of votes by users in good standing (what defines that is up to the mods), the vote goes through.
Sol's suggestion - If it runs for a week, just accept the vote results, because clearly no one else cares enough either way.

#6
Mods can not unban people that were banned by senate vote. This should eliminate the appendium concern above.
Only MIKE could do that.

#7
Mass Email to all SD.NET accounts letting them know of this occurring, and inviting them to start posting on SD.NET again.
Including the ones that were banned and that are no longer banned.

[muse]

It's over. Almost all the good productive members of SD.net have either left or been driven off over the past 10 years or so. They're not coming back and letting banned users back in is going to drive off everyone else who's worth having around.

[bilateralrope]

Which of the currently active users would you suggest for the Senate ?

I ask because I'm very curious what they will have to say about it.

As for the banned users, I'd like some examples of people who you think could be good to have back Instead of people who will just accumulate warnings until they get a ban long enough that they don't come back. Assume that they will be active the moment they are unbanned.

[bilateralrope]

It's over. Almost all the good productive members of SD.net have either left or been driven off over the past 10 years or so. They're not coming back and letting banned users back in is going to drive off everyone else who's worth having around.

The forums I'm aware of that are still active all have some core interest that the community is built around. Something that draws people to the forum in question and keeps it active as long as people are still interested in that core interest. Usually video games, with a few webcomics also there.

I can't see what our core interest is right now. Without one, I can't see the future of SD.NET being anything other than continued stagnation until the last active user leaves or, more likely, Mike decides to stop spending the money and time needed to keep the server online.

[Solauren]

Which of the currently active users would you suggest for the Senate ?

I ask because I'm very curious what they will have to say about it.

As for the banned users, I'd like some examples of people who you think could be good to have back Instead of people who will just accumulate warnings until they get a ban long enough that they don't come back. Assume that they will be active the moment they are unbanned.

For the Senate; EVERYONE. Basically, the community = senate. A ban poll goes up, everyone can vote.

As for examples for banned users that could be productive again - everyone that didn't violate a major rule, and that has been banned for over 2 years. People have grown, matured, and I'm willing to bet some of them still read the board on occasion, and would like to participate again, but can't and don't know how to contact the admins.

Or maybe as the first act of the 'new senate', we start unbanning polls on members that didn't violate a major rule. That would let the banned users slowly come back in, and let us see if this would even work.

[Solauren]

It's over. Almost all the good productive members of SD.net have either left or been driven off over the past 10 years or so. They're not coming back and letting banned users back in is going to drive off everyone else who's worth having around.

That's the point, DRIVEN OFF.

Let me put it to you this way Muse...

If Aerius (I believe he's your brother in law) got perma-banned for something that should have only been a temp ban/cooling off ban, would you still post? Would J? Would any of their friends that joined because of them? (Assuming that any of their friends joined here, of course).

One 'over-ban', because someone might have been having a bad week (Aerius, a mod, or just a really touchy subject) and several people are now gone.

Or, again using Aerius as part of an example, gets into an argument with someone, and the other user gets banned.
That user whines to mod that is a friend, and gets let back on, and Aerius leaves in disgust. Would you still post? Would J?
Same effect, no?

My suggestion is to prevent, and possibly reverse those types of scenarios.

Case in point, how many times over the years have we seen certain 'senior' posters get banned, and then show back up? I know I've asked Tev about that on several occasions, and her answer was always 'they complained to someone else, and got unbanned.'
Hell, in the past, I didn't make a public complaint about it, for fear of that user complaining the the mod and getting me banned.

I'm hoping that a new Senate would prevent, or at least severly limit those scenarios. And the threat of a ban that the mods couldn't override, would at least give pause to those senior posters acting in a way that would be 'toxic'.

Could this be too little, too late? Sure, absolutely.

But,to quote a poet, wouldn't you rather 'rage, rage, against the dying of the light, instead of going gentle into that good night?'

[bilateralrope]

For the Senate; EVERYONE. Basically, the community = senate. A ban poll goes up, everyone can vote.

So your idea relies on more work from the few people who choose to stay here.

How would the polls be protected from bots ?

Does phpBB even have the code required to implement your idea ?

As for examples for banned users that could be productive again - everyone that didn't violate a major rule, and that has been banned for over 2 years.

For an idea like this, the specifics matter. If you can't give any examples of specific people I suggest you go and think more about this idea until you can.

[Solauren]

For the Senate; EVERYONE. Basically, the community = senate. A ban poll goes up, everyone can vote.

So your idea relies on more work from the few people who choose to stay here.

How would the polls be protected from bots ?

Does phpBB even have the code required to implement your idea ?

As for examples for banned users that could be productive again - everyone that didn't violate a major rule, and that has been banned for over 2 years.

For an idea like this, the specifics matter. If you can't give any examples of specific people I suggest you go and think more about this idea until you can.

Ban Polls - We used to do them way back before the Senate.

Specifics - Do you think I've gone over the posting history of the entire board and every user? Or have a nice graph showing 'okay, this guy was banned, and within 3 months, 100 people stopped posting or even logging in'? In theory, I could do the 'banned, and stopped posting', but not the login activity.
Frankly, I have better things to do with my time then try to gather up that kind of stats, or do all that reading.

It's a trend I noticed over the years. A trend when I've mentioned it to others, they agreed with.

But, if you really want a specific example, 'TheRomulanRepublic' comes to mind. He wasn't nearly as offensive as some other people, but he upset the wrong people, and got banned.

[bilateralrope]

Dalton's silence on this proposal is probably the biggest hurdle it's going to have to deal with.

Ban Polls - We used to do them way back before the Senate.

Ok, so they worked in the past. They might work for a while. Until someone cares enough to deploy bots.

Specifics - Do you think I've gone over the posting history of the entire board and every user? Or have a nice graph showing 'okay, this guy was banned, and within 3 months, 100 people stopped posting or even logging in'? In theory, I could do the 'banned, and stopped posting', but not the login activity.
Frankly, I have better things to do with my time then try to gather up that kind of stats, or do all that reading.

You don't need to name everyone you think might bring activity back. Just a few of them. Whoever sticks in your mind after skimming the thread titles in parting shots.

But, if you really want a specific example, 'TheRomulanRepublic' comes to mind. He wasn't nearly as offensive as some other people, but he upset the wrong people, and got banned.

Yes, things did get quieter here after he was banned. He was creating a lot of activity.

But go reread his parting shot thread and refresh yourself on why he was banned. He broke one of the rules that comes with a clear warning that breaking it will get you banned. You even included a variant on the part he broke in your proposal.

Publicly daring the staff to ban is a automatic 1 year ban, with the vote being 'Current 1 Year is enough, vs Permaban'

He was an interesting example for you to choose. One that makes me want to know which rules you consider "major".



I also note that you didn't answer my question about phpBB code. If that code doesn't exist, you're relying on someone to implement the results of polls even when they don't like that result. When part of your complaint is mods protecting users from bans. That sounds like a problem waiting to happen.

[Gandalf]

Honestly, I just pop in out of habit. But without preexisting content with which I want to engage, I have no reason to post.

As an example, the best posts I've seen in the last year were Vympel's debunking crap in the Ukraine threads. People lost their shit over it, but it was good reading.

Better to just relocate to Reddit and shut this place down at this point.

[Solauren]

(SNIP)

Then, what are your suggestions, if any?

[Crazedwraith]

Yeah, Muse and Gandalf have this right.

There's no reinvigorating this place, especially not by inviting trolls back. The only people who would come back are those who are have been weirdly obsessed with this place after years of being banned and aren't going to be productive members anyway.

It's fine. Nothing lasts forever. Move to reddit or facebook or the discord or wherever people hang these days.

[LadyTevar]

Most people are hanging out on Discord.


And if Dalton did not say anything about the idea, that right there was a SILENT KILL of the idea.

[His Divine Shadow]

Death before discord for me, forums != chat.

But I also don't see why any of the things mentioned above is gonna get this place more lively again, I think it's time has been and it's a slow grind until it eventually closes.

On the brighter side, forums are still around and are still the best method of discussing certain niche things where you actually need information to stick around and be organized and searchable.

This place just doesn't have that niche thing going for it anymore, or the niche thing is no longer popular.

[Dalton]

I did send this to Mike, but he’s just as distracted by meatspace matters as I am.

[bilateralrope]

(SNIP)

Then, what are your suggestions, if any?

Find some core interest that draws people here. Merely letting them come back isn't enough. You need to give them a reason to want to return.

Without that reason the best case I can see for your proposal is that some of the people who get unbanned are still obsessed with SD.NET, so they return and start causing disagreements to happen. That might even draw back some of the people who left without being banned. Until those previously banned users start getting banned for the same things that got them banned the first time and everyone they drew back drifts away again.

[Solauren]

And the SW/ST debate is something most people have moved past.

[aerius]

Honestly, I just pop in out of habit. But without preexisting content with which I want to engage, I have no reason to post.

Find some core interest that draws people here. Merely letting them come back isn't enough. You need to give them a reason to want to return.

Bingo. We need to understand why SD.net was good and what kept the good folks coming back. Back in the old days, we had a lot of highly intelligent and opinionated members from all kinds of different backgrounds, and this was a place where we could have in depth discussions on all sorts of different subjects along with the requisite flame wars, this was totally fine as long as we followed the (un)written rules. We also had free reign to flame the dumbasses to a crisp and eat them with BBQ sauce, and it was fucking hilarious. The quality of discourse was kept high because all the trolls and morons were ruthlessly abused until they left or got banned, this was appealing for many intelligent folks because it means we can actually discuss things without getting drowned in a sea of bullshit.

SD.net ain't like that anymore, not even close. What made it unique and worth participating in is long gone, it's really no different from any other forum on the 'net, and on top of that it's pretty much dead with only a handful of posts a week. I could go to a karate forum or something and have more interesting discussions than the ones taking place here, what reason is there for sticking around?

[Crazedwraith]

Wasn't it hilarious when everyone was abusive assholes to each other? *wonders were everyone went*

It's a mystery.

[Solauren]

You know what, I can accept that.

I like this place, I made a suggestion, and people provided good reasons why it won't work with the board as it is now.
I can at least say "I tried".

So long as we're given a few weeks (or a few months) warning off closure, so I can download the threads I'd want to keep (mostly from the Fanfiction area, odd other one), I can live with that.

[Batman]

I agree that 'just TO keep the place around' isn't enough reason to keep the place around, especially not if it can only be done by dragging back in the riffraff we kicked out because we didn't want them.
Yeah, I've grown rather fond of the place too, but if there's nothing BEYOND 'I'm rather fond of this place' (for me the main draw was the SciFi debates, and these days, there's very liitle popular SciFi TO debate beyond Trek and Wars, and there's little enough new of that, and that's a VERY dead battlefield), just keeping it alive for the sake of nostalgia seems wrong (much as I might miss some people I might not see elsewhere).

[Ralin]

Bingo. We need to understand why SD.net was good and what kept the good folks coming back. Back in the old days, we had a lot of highly intelligent and opinionated members from all kinds of different backgrounds, and this was a place where we could have in depth discussions on all sorts of different subjects along with the requisite flame wars, this was totally fine as long as we followed the (un)written rules. We also had free reign to flame the dumbasses to a crisp and eat them with BBQ sauce, and it was fucking hilarious. The quality of discourse was kept high because all the trolls and morons were ruthlessly abused until they left or got banned, this was appealing for many intelligent folks because it means we can actually discuss things without getting drowned in a sea of bullshit.

SD.net ain't like that anymore, not even close. What made it unique and worth participating in is long gone, it's really no different from any other forum on the 'net, and on top of that it's pretty much dead with only a handful of posts a week. I could go to a karate forum or something and have more interesting discussions than the ones taking place here, what reason is there for sticking around?

Pretty fucking hilarious to go on about what a bad ass intellectual flame warrior you are when Tev admitted just last month that they were closing threads because you kept trolling them and they didn't want to have to ban more old-timers.

[Col. Crackpot]

Honestly, I just pop in out of habit. But without preexisting content with which I want to engage, I have no reason to post.

Find some core interest that draws people here. Merely letting them come back isn't enough. You need to give them a reason to want to return.

Bingo. We need to understand why SD.net was good and what kept the good folks coming back. Back in the old days, we had a lot of highly intelligent and opinionated members from all kinds of different backgrounds, and this was a place where we could have in depth discussions on all sorts of different subjects along with the requisite flame wars, this was totally fine as long as we followed the (un)written rules. We also had free reign to flame the dumbasses to a crisp and eat them with BBQ sauce, and it was fucking hilarious. The quality of discourse was kept high because all the trolls and morons were ruthlessly abused until they left or got banned, this was appealing for many intelligent folks because it means we can actually discuss things without getting drowned in a sea of bullshit.

SD.net ain't like that anymore, not even close. What made it unique and worth participating in is long gone, it's really no different from any other forum on the 'net, and on top of that it's pretty much dead with only a handful of posts a week. I could go to a karate forum or something and have more interesting discussions than the ones taking place here, what reason is there for sticking around?

We all left because you touch yourself at night

[The Grim Squeaker]

Open up some calls for n00bs on some relevant subreddits mayhaps? Ya need fresh blood.