Ringworld

[Khan Jackal Moreau]

Anyone here read it?

What do you think of the series?

Want to take a ship up against the Ringworld anytime soon?

[SirNitram]

Culture GSV or ROU.

Fourth Empire Planetoid.

Netherese Archmage.

ARM/CORE.

Marvelverse.

Need more?

[Khan Jackal Moreau]

Have you read the book?

[SirNitram]

Have you read the book?

Yes. Do you know about most of these forces I mentioned?

[TheDarkling]

You shut him up didnt you.

Well done SirNitram .

[SirNitram]

You shut him up didnt you.

Well done SirNitram .

He'll be back. Fanatics always are. Honestly, when I've read novels where deities are smacked down, Niven really loses it's 'Super Duper Unstoppability'.

[Mr Bean]

*Dodges in drops another
Dont' forget DBZ! ($@^@#^ Evil unverise where people posses DS power levels)

[Graeme Dice]

Need more?

Worldship with universe shielding.

How many "Fist of God" sized mountains should we create today?

[SirNitram]

Need more?

Worldship with universe shielding.

How many "Fist of God" sized mountains should we create today?

The Worldship. All the smackdown, none of the technobabble.

[Ender]

I told you earlier.

Any sources you want, as large a fleet as you want, and all that.

Vs

the Irken Empire.

Bring it.

Doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom...

[Howedar]

Read the book, very good. Anyone under 4thE would have trouble destroying it without a very large fleet/superweapon, as far as I can tell.

[Khan Jackal Moreau]

Ok. So we're just going with "spouting off" then are we.

I'll bring me. You'll bring your papers. I smack your papers to the ground. Haha. You lose. Becuase they don't exist, and if we can't sit down and have a friendly exchange over relative strengths of materials, and all that, what CAN we do? Simply exchange lousy fiction.

Seriously. Forget the fact that at least Niven tries to include science. You know, that measuring stick we all use to approximate things. Don't even TRY to find a source that cares about the relative strengths of things.

I'll bring Frank Richards. No science here, that's what you like, right? He imagines you never existed. So you don't.

Do you understand here?

Niven cares. He honestly does care about how strong or feasible something is. For all the crazy Ringworlds he builds, he puts science to it, and TRIES to explain it. Does his best. He cares.

The guys who wrote that Total Annihilation Fanfic that Cavedog made offical canon? They don't care. Neither does Cavedog, why should they?

Why bother arguing if there is no standard?

Frank Richards wins. He can do anything. Literally.

[SirNitram]

Wow, Niven cares about science. Well, sadly, that doesn't automatically mean he's the king of sci-fi, dumbshit. Sure, Ringworld was good. Converging Series is his best compilation of stories. If you wanted to pit the Known Space civilizations up against others, you might have had a chance here. But you didn't, you're acting like a fanboy wank, which, I suspect, you are.

Wah, wah, Niven uses science so he wins!

That you talk about bringing these debates into reality is mildly scary. Do you punch people who prove you wrong all the time, or is this some mental condition you get from trolling on message boards?

Again: Ringworld Builders are beaten by any of the above listed. In fact, I'll trump your pathetic attempts even further.

Clarketech, specifically, the Monolith Builders, their capacities as described in 2001, 2010, 2036, and 3001. Arthur C. Clarke held science closer than Niven, who regularly broke rules for a better story(But you, fanboy wank that you are, don't understand such things.), but the Monolith Builders would rip the Ringworld Builders a new one and blow up their creation.

[HemlockGrey]

If I may ask, what the hell is the Irken Empire?

[Ender]

I'll bring me. You'll bring your papers. I smack your papers to the ground. Haha. You lose. Becuase they don't exist, and if we can't sit down and have a friendly exchange over relative strengths of materials, and all that, what CAN we do? Simply exchange lousy fiction.

Let me see if I get this right... You will accept no other sources for no other series because they do not use the same level of science you claim Niven does?

Give me a break.

[Gil Hamilton]

Wow, Niven cares about science. Well, sadly, that doesn't automatically mean he's the king of sci-fi, dumbshit. Sure, Ringworld was good. Converging Series is his best compilation of stories. If you wanted to pit the Known Space civilizations up against others, you might have had a chance here. But you didn't, you're acting like a fanboy wank, which, I suspect, you are.

Wah, wah, Niven uses science so he wins!

That you talk about bringing these debates into reality is mildly scary. Do you punch people who prove you wrong all the time, or is this some mental condition you get from trolling on message boards?

Again: Ringworld Builders are beaten by any of the above listed. In fact, I'll trump your pathetic attempts even further.

Clarketech, specifically, the Monolith Builders, their capacities as described in 2001, 2010, 2036, and 3001. Arthur C. Clarke held science closer than Niven, who regularly broke rules for a better story(But you, fanboy wank that you are, don't understand such things.), but the Monolith Builders would rip the Ringworld Builders a new one and blow up their creation.

Well, I am a big fan of Niven, but I acknowledge that he has invented stuff that's impossible by the laws of physics, for a story, but that is perfectly acceptable. Like, for instance, Skrith (he invented it simply because he knew that their was no material that was strong enough to build the Ringworld out of), but it doesn't take anything away from the story.Of course, there are also parts of Niven's stories where the Laws of Physics are broken and the characters in the story are just as shocked by it as anyone.
But I disagree with you statement that Sir Arthur Clarke held closer to science than Niven. In the 2001 books, the Monoliths turned Jupiter into the star Lucifer. It doesn't work very well in real life, but it's important to the rest of the series. Or take The Songs of Distant Earth, where the sun novaed in a thousand years or so. Again, doesn't work with science, but for the sake of the story, he needed a reason for people to flee the Earth and risk interstellar travel to save themselves. The difference is that Clarkes stories tend to be less fantastic in nature than Nivens, so they don't really have many chances to break the laws of physics.

Anyway, on topic, the Ringworld Meteor Defense is formidable, but it is by no means the end all of ends alls. Lots of things could destroy the Ringworld like SirNitrim listed.

[NecronLord]

I suggest you read 2010 very carefully before making that kind of claim, the monolits alter the makeup of jupiter first... then they set off the reaction

[NecronLord]

and just for fun. I'll take the Dalek command ship from rememberence of the daleks (dr. who) up against it.

Time-corridor to ringbuilders homeworld in their stone age

fly through

BDZ

Fly home

close corridor

[beyond hope]

I notice there are a number of variables that the start of the thread doesn't specify, such as "do we know the ringworld's capabilities?" and "what is our goal in attacking the ringworld? are we supposed to occupy it... destroy it... what?"

Nonetheless, I believe that the humble Federation starfleet is up to the task. Let's say we know nothing about the ringworld: a Federation science ship (let's say the Voyager, with Janeway on board) spots it and closes in to investigate. They get flamed by the meteor defense, and the galaxy sends up a collective cheer that she's *finally* dead. With the vessel confirmed hostile, Starfleet then sends out a fleet. It will be obvious from Voyager's last transmissions that the meteor defense blast originated from the sun... that means you approach from the axis of rotation for the ring, where the beam can't strike you (this is how Fist-Of-God mountain came to be, so we know it's an effective tactic.) So, approaching the ringworld is simple enough once you know about the meteor defense. In fact, there's no reason to believe that Starfleet would even lose a ship that way... as long as the ship's plotted path doesn't intersect the ring, the meteor defense (which is on automatic) won't fire.

Once you get your ships in orbit, the rest is simple. Since we're dealing with ringworld *from the novels,* there are no Ringworld Builders alive on it. The entire ring has slipped into low-tech barbarism (with steam power if you're lucky) and even the red-pajama posse should be able to slowly take and hold territory since they can beam on and off the ring as they please. The vampires might be a bit of a problem... I figure a few away teams die before they catch on and start issuing some sort of filtration equipment (if you can pick out the bio-signs this becomes easier... pho-torps from orbit.) With enough time for scanning (and since the occupants can't resist ships in orbit, you have all the time you want) you can locate the control center. You lose more redshirts there when the tree-of-life kills them... once again you'll need NBC protection in that area. Given time though, the *Feds* can occupy the ringworld.

Now, let's say you had to destroy it. You can start from the same premise as before... you lose *maybe* the first scout that locates the ring. From there, since the defenses are just automatic you can get around them easily enough. Depending on how quickly you need to do the job, you could just destroy all the station-keeping thrusters on the sides of the rings (at which point the ring will develop a wobble in it's orbit and eventually touch the sun, frying everything on the surface.) Let's say you need to wipe it clean of life faster, though: fine, you can orbit the side facing the sun and bombard the surface. It'll be a long process, but there's no way the hapless inhabitants can stop you. You could also destroy the radiators on the other side which radiate waste heat away: without them the surface temperature will become unsurvivable. Finally (and this would take a *lot* of Star Trek ships) there's destruction of the ring itself: again there's nothing stopping you, so you're free to continue bombarding a section of the ring with pho-torps and q-torps until you compromise the integrity of it. Scrith is strong but NOT indestructible... it will eventually fail under a long enough bombardment.

Finally, an enemy you can use the Feds against... thanks Khan Jackal!

[Ender]

Pfth. Ringworld can be taken out by Wars as well, the problem is that asshat here says no other sources are acceptable as they don't confrom to the same level of scientific standards as he claims RW does.

It's even funnier when you realize that the International Fleet from Ender's Game, a 1st level civilization, could demolish the Ringworld with a single missile.

[Howedar]

Once you get your ships in orbit, the rest is simple. Since we're dealing with ringworld *from the novels,* there are no Ringworld Builders alive on it.

Both The Ringworld Engineers and The Ringworld Throne demonstrate that there are several protectors on the Ringworld. God help the Federation if they get pissed off.

The entire ring has slipped into low-tech barbarism (with steam power if you're lucky) and even the red-pajama posse should be able to slowly take and hold territory since they can beam on and off the ring as they please.

Against spears and slugthrowers, the redshirts go down hard. Besides, do you have any fucking idea just how much territory they have to occupy?? The area of the Ringworld is 5 or 6 orders of magnitude greater than a planet.

The vampires might be a bit of a problem... I figure a few away teams die before they catch on and start issuing some sort of filtration equipment (if you can pick out the bio-signs this becomes easier... pho-torps from orbit.)

Yeah, thats right, from the bottom side. Good idea.

With enough time for scanning (and since the occupants can't resist ships in orbit, you have all the time you want) you can locate the control center. You lose more redshirts there when the tree-of-life kills them... once again you'll need NBC protection in that area. Given time though, the *Feds* can occupy the ringworld.

Good freakin luck. You still gotta get by the Protectors, and you have to get through the scrith, which is no doubt dense enough to prevent transport.

Now, let's say you had to destroy it. You can start from the same premise as before... you lose *maybe* the first scout that locates the ring. From there, since the defenses are just automatic you can get around them easily enough. Depending on how quickly you need to do the job, you could just destroy all the station-keeping thrusters on the sides of the rings (at which point the ring will develop a wobble in it's orbit and eventually touch the sun, frying everything on the surface.)

An acceptable tactic, assuming the protectors don't catch you.

Let's say you need to wipe it clean of life faster, though: fine, you can orbit the side facing the sun and bombard the surface. It'll be a long process, but there's no way the hapless inhabitants can stop you.

Christ, you aren't kidding! Again I ask, do you have any idea just how large the Ringworld is? Some 2.9e14 square miles! Good freakin luck bombarding that!

You could also destroy the radiators on the other side which radiate waste heat away: without them the surface temperature will become unsurvivable.

Incorrect. Said radiators are in the ocean to cool the polar caps of the world maps. They are irrelivent to the functioning of the Ringworld as a whole.

Finally (and this would take a *lot* of Star Trek ships) there's destruction of the ring itself: again there's nothing stopping you, so you're free to continue bombarding a section of the ring with pho-torps and q-torps until you compromise the integrity of it. Scrith is strong but NOT indestructible... it will eventually fail under a long enough bombardment.

Yeah, like a fucking thousand years long. The Ringworld is a million miles across of incredibly strong material, and a 10km-wide rock asteroid in Pegasus would take nearly an entire Galaxy's torpedo load.

[NecronLord]

They could always try a trilitium device...

[beyond hope]

Both The Ringworld Engineers and The Ringworld Throne demonstrate that there are several protectors on the Ringworld.

I may be mistaken because I can't lay my hands on my copy of Ringworld, but there are no protectors there until Teela becomes one. I'll concede the point with a quote from Ringworld showing one, though. Khan thoughtfully didn't specify *when* you'd be attacking the Ringworld, so I took the easy way out and assumed that the first expedition never happened.

Besides, do you have any fucking idea just how much territory they have to occupy?? The area of the Ringworld is 5 or 6 orders of magnitude greater than a planet.

Yeah, I know how big it is. It would no doubt take most of the Starfleet working for decades to do either job. I still stand by "no one can stop them from doing it because they can't do dick to their ships." Need more marines? Bring in more transports along the blind spot by the ring edge. Need more photorps? Bring in resupply ships the same way. It's a huge job, but it's doable.

[/quote]Incorrect. Said radiators are in the ocean to cool the polar caps of the world maps. They are irrelivent to the functioning of the Ringworld as a whole.

I remembered the radiators being there and didn't remember why. I *should* have thought about the shadow squares being there to provide darkness and didn't. Doh!

Okay, said radiators are there to cool the polar caps. On the map of Earth alone, there's about 5.7 gigatons of ice on the Antarctic if you assume the map is as close to resembling Earth as possible. The effect of melting every polar cap on every map could safely be described as catastrophic. You drown as many of the inhabitants as you can and then finish off the rest. Not a quick or elegant solution, but it should get the job done.

One point I neglected: until The Ringworld Engineers, all the station-keeping thrusters are dismounted. The Teela-protector only manages to get 5% back in place and then they have to direct a plasma jet from the sun onto the ring (and fry 5% of the inhabitants) in order to get it righted again. Left to it's own devices as the Ring is in the first novel, it'll destroy itself if you just sit and watch.

Now if Khan had said "The Pak Protectors vs. someone else" that would be a different story. I'd put money down that the Pak (or the Thrint, or the Tnuctipun) could kick the Federation's ass any day of the week.

I saw Khan's posts in the other thread: would he like to explain to us how genetics allows for a "lucky" human? Or where Niven got a building material like Scrith that has the strength of the binding force in atomic nuclei? Or how a General Products hull is totally, completely impervious to harm by anything other than antimatter (which ironically enough makes them vulnerable to photorps)? Understand that I like Niven: I have every single book he's written sitting on my shelf (except for Ringworld, which is probably buried in there somewhere.) He pulls as much stuff out of his ass as any other sci-fi writer, though. If we really want to take the argument of "it doesn't conform to our current scientific understanding" to it's logical conclusion we can safely say that about 95% of all sci-fi is not going to pass the test.

[beyond hope]

arrrgh... my kingdom for edit, the part *above* the long blue box of text there is the actual quote.

[Graeme Dice]

Some 2.9e14 square miles! Good freakin luck bombarding that!

Send a planetoid at the thing from the side sun side and have it punch through just like the Fist of God mountain, only this time, all the air will leave.