Giving in to the Darkside

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-02 09:06am

Both Obi-Wan and Luke have clearly touched the Darkside in both TPM and ROTJ...and it is because of these moments that they are able to gain leverage against their opponents. Granted, it is almost Obi-Wan's undoing...but how might the series been different if they had been more in control of their emotions and not touched the Darkside? Both Obi and Luke were fighting battles that were gaining no ground until they tapped into it.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2003-04-02 10:43am

When it happened, exactly?

Okay, for Anakin, it was when he slaughtered the whole Sandpeople tribe. How about Obi Wan?

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-02 10:45am

Obi touched the Darkside after Qui's death.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-04-02 10:55am

Obi-Wan arguably had a close call with the Dark Side after Darth Maul defeated Qui-Gonn. Obi-Wan certainly looked pretty angry when he charged in to fight Maul, but he really ended up losing that fight. Only when he was dangling by his fingertips in the "bottomless shaft" did he calm down, think, and come up with a plan for defeating Maul. Thus, he didn't actually win until he pulled himself back to the Light Side.

Luke also had a close call with the Dark Side when he fought Vader on the second Death Star. Vader's threat to Leia finally pushed Luke over the edge, and he launched a furious attack that eventually resulted in him cutting off Vader's arm at the wrist. Did Luke's rage help him much? It's hard to be sure, but Vader was trying to turn Luke, not kill him, so his switch to a totally defensive posture when Luke went berserk need not be attributed solely to the effectiveness of Luke's attack.

FettKyle · Post by **FettKyle** » 2003-04-02 01:01pm

Sorry if this is off topic but during the scene where Vader taunts Luke isn't Vader holding Luke's lightsaber cause I swear I saw it in his hand.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-02 02:09pm

Ted C wrote:Obi-Wan arguably had a close call with the Dark Side after Darth Maul defeated Qui-Gonn. Obi-Wan certainly looked pretty angry when he charged in to fight Maul, but he really ended up losing that fight. Only when he was dangling by his fingertips in the "bottomless shaft" did he calm down, think, and come up with a plan for defeating Maul. Thus, he didn't actually win until he pulled himself back to the Light Side.

Going to have to agree with you there as far as the outcome of the fight in general. However, Obi-Wan wasn't really gaining any ground with Maul until he touched the Darkside there. (And I think in the director's commentary for EP2, Lucas mentions him doing it there with Maul while discussing another part...I think when Anakin went berserk and killed the Tuskens...and I think it's mentioned on Starwars.com under the section about Maul). By gaining ground, I meant that he actually started to land some successful attacks...slicing Maul's saber in half, kicking , etc. His fighting style becomes far more refined, with less of those wasteful twirls of a reckless padawan. Granted, he lets himself open for the Force Push that is almost his undoing, but he certainly was fighting a lot better after Qui's death and his brush with the Darkside.

Luke also had a close call with the Dark Side when he fought Vader on the second Death Star. Vader's threat to Leia finally pushed Luke over the edge, and he launched a furious attack that eventually resulted in him cutting off Vader's arm at the wrist. Did Luke's rage help him much? It's hard to be sure, but Vader was trying to turn Luke, not kill him, so his switch to a totally defensive posture when Luke went berserk need not be attributed solely to the effectiveness of Luke's attack.

I would have to say that Luke's rage did help him. He was fighting a vastly defensive battle against Vader and rapidly loosing ground...(retreating, jumping back, nearly getting his head taken off by Vader's Saber Throw, etc). Once Luke gets to the point where he has touched the Darkside, he does indeed begin launching a furious counter attack. To the point where he beats Vader down and pretty much wins the battle. He had Vader at his mercy. He could have struck him down, but he recollects himself. Vader for all intensify purposes, was incapicitated by Luke after Luke gave in.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-04-02 02:46pm

Lord_Xerxes wrote: Going to have to agree with you there as far as the outcome of the fight in general. However, Obi-Wan wasn't really gaining any ground with Maul until he touched the Darkside there. (And I think in the director's commentary for EP2, Lucas mentions him doing it there with Maul while discussing another part...I think when Anakin went berserk and killed the Tuskens...and I think it's mentioned on Starwars.com under the section about Maul). By gaining ground, I meant that he actually started to land some successful attacks...slicing Maul's saber in half, kicking , etc. His fighting style becomes far more refined, with less of those wasteful twirls of a reckless padawan. Granted, he lets himself open for the Force Push that is almost his undoing, but he certainly was fighting a lot better after Qui's death and his brush with the Darkside.

Yoda described the Dark Side as "quicker, easier, more seductive". In essence, it's a shortcut for acquiring force skills. Obi-Wan is already pretty thoroughly trained, so it would appear that he wouldn't have as much to gain from drawing on the Dark Side as a relative beginner like Luke. Any comparison of his fighting performance during his solo duel with Maul to his performance at other times is basically subjective, since he didn't demonstrate any obvious new abilities or tactics (like "force lightning" or telekinetically throwing objects at his opponent).

Lord_Xerxes wrote: I would have to say that Luke's rage did help him. He was fighting a vastly defensive battle against Vader and rapidly loosing ground...(retreating, jumping back, nearly getting his head taken off by Vader's Saber Throw, etc). Once Luke gets to the point where he has touched the Darkside, he does indeed begin launching a furious counter attack. To the point where he beats Vader down and pretty much wins the battle. He had Vader at his mercy. He could have struck him down, but he recollects himself. Vader for all intensify purposes, was incapicitated by Luke after Luke gave in.

Luke was fighting an entirely defensive battle earlier because he didn't want to fight. He knew they were trying to goad him, and he was doing his best to minimize their opportunities by avoiding conflict as much as possible. Vader kept up a constant stream of "harassment" attacks against Luke to promote fear and anger, but he never intended to actually kill Luke.

Once Luke did go on the offensive, Vader became the one fighting completely defensively. He was in a bit of a quandary; he'd finally found the right button to press to make Luke vulnerable to the Dark Side, and he had to try to get Luke to succumb to that rage. At the same time, he had to try to keep himself alive and presumably re-direct Luke's rage toward the Emperor (remember the old "together we can defeat the Emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son" line?). He was actually doing OK leading Luke back out into the open, but he apparently tripped over his own cape, fell, and couldn't defend himself against Luke's relentless assault. The problem with using the Dark Side is it's tendency to betray you at inopportune moments...

(a lot of that is speculation, of course, but it's pretty consistent with the flow of events and Vader's previous statements)

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-02 02:57pm

Yoda described the Dark Side as "quicker, easier, more seductive". In essence, it's a shortcut for acquiring force skills.

Yes, Yoda described it as such in an immediate responce to Luke's query over which side of the Force was stronger. "No...No...quicker, easier...more seductive." Yoda is so quick to deny that it is. However, outside of the story, we know the reason for this. Because he doesn't want to admit to Luke that it is MORE POWERFUL. (AOTC commentary from Lucas) It may be quicker and easier just because it's harder to walk the light path and resist it/walking the thin and narrow.

Luke was fighting an entirely defensive battle earlier because he didn't want to fight. He knew they were trying to goad him, and he was doing his best to minimize their opportunities by avoiding conflict as much as possible. Vader kept up a constant stream of "harassment" attacks against Luke to promote fear and anger, but he never intended to actually kill Luke.

While I agree with you that Luke is fighting defensively because he is reluctant to fight his father, he is still doing so....and that is fighting. And in responce to the kill luke thing, all I have to say is "If you will not be turned...then you will be destroyed." And I would say that Vader makes a rather good attempt at killing him. He comes damn close to taking Luke in half with the Saber Throw that immediately follows those lines.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-04-02 03:17pm

Lord_Xerxes wrote: Yes, Yoda described it as such in an immediate responce to Luke's query over which side of the Force was stronger. "No...No...quicker, easier...more seductive." Yoda is so quick to deny that it is. However, outside of the story, we know the reason for this. Because he doesn't want to admit to Luke that it is MORE POWERFUL. (AOTC commentary from Lucas) It may be quicker and easier just because it's harder to walk the light path and resist it/walking the thin and narrow.

I don't know what commentary that is, but Yoda demonstrated in AOTC that he can keep pace with a reallyl nasty Sith Lord.

The Dark Side is not stronger than the Light Side; they're both part of the same thing. The Dark Side does seem to give away more of the power and more easily, but the price is that it may fail you without warning.

Lord_Xerxes wrote: While I agree with you that Luke is fighting defensively because he is reluctant to fight his father, he is still doing so....and that is fighting. And in responce to the kill luke thing, all I have to say is "If you will not be turned...then you will be destroyed." And I would say that Vader makes a rather good attempt at killing him. He comes damn close to taking Luke in half with the Saber Throw that immediately follows those lines.

We're back into the subjective realm again, there. I really don't think Luke had any trouble dodging that throw, which was as likely as not aimed at the support holding up the catwalk (resulting in Luke being dumped back down to the floor).

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-03 01:15am

Ted C wrote:
I don't know what commentary that is, but Yoda demonstrated in AOTC that he can keep pace with a reallyl nasty Sith Lord.

Hardly. Yoda was panting before the battle began, and clearly looks winded in during the show of power between him and Dooku with the debris throwing and Force lightning. Furthermore, Dooku doesn't look winded at all, and cleanly and easily parries and deflects every blow that Yoda launches at him. For all the kewlness of his jumping, flipping and insanity, it's just wasted energy...he's only tiring himself out in the long run. Although, it might be necessary for his size. Regardless, Dooku is easily defending him, and his retreat may only be due to the fact that he knows the Republic Clone Army is breathing down his neck in a matter of moments.

The Dark Side is not stronger than the Light Side; they're both part of the same thing. The Dark Side does seem to give away more of the power and more easily, but the price is that it may fail you without warning.

The Darkside is stronger. Insert your DVD into the player and turn on the director commentary. Or, if someone has the quote handy, that would be great. But it was posted on this forum before. I will try to dredge it up.

We're back into the subjective realm again, there. I really don't think Luke had any trouble dodging that throw, which was as likely as not aimed at the support holding up the catwalk (resulting in Luke being dumped back down to the floor).

Perhaps someone here can shed some light on things, by providing some screens frame by frame. Poe maybe? That seems to be his forte. Or maybe Mike, since he's got the Classic Trilogy burned to DVD now. Once someone does that and we can analyze it, if it turns out that you are correct, I will concede that point to you.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-04-03 10:14am

The Dark Side is not stronger than the Light Side; they're both part of the same thing. The Dark Side does seem to give away more of the power and more easily, but the price is that it may fail you without warning.

The Darkside is stronger. The problem is it destroys you in the long run. Look at what it did to Palpatine. That's why you have to be warry; power corrupts.

Kazeite · Post by **Kazeite** » 2003-04-03 10:24am

While the ROTJ movie doesn't make it obvious, the novelisation clearly states that at the beginning of the fight Luke is more powerful than Vader. More agile, younger, and more experienced than before.
But he didn't want to fight. I agree with Ted C.

Also I don't think that Dooku was more powerful than Yoda at the time of their duel. He clearly terminated their fight not because he was afraid that Republic Army would catch up with him, but bacause he didn't want to fight with Yoda.
Why do I say that? Simple. He took off, he reached orbit, he flew to Coruscant. All without difficulty. Without Clone Army resistance. So he certainly had lot of time to finish Yoda if he wanted and was able to.

However, the outcome of debate over this particular topic is rather... unimportant, becasue there was someone even more powerful than Dooku at this time.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-04-03 10:37am

Lord_Xerxes wrote: The Darkside is stronger. Insert your DVD into the player and turn on the director commentary. Or, if someone has the quote handy, that would be great. But it was posted on this forum before. I will try to dredge it up.

I'd like to see that quote (and I haven't seen the DVD yet). I've always been under the impression that the Dark Side of the Force is not any stronger than the Light Side, but that Dark Side users are often more powerful than their Light Side counterparts because the Dark Side gives power to them more quickly and easily. Hence, a Sith can usually overpower a Jedi with the same amount of training.

On the other hand, a Sith's life is constantly filled with fear, anger, hatred and treachery, so they really don't get much quality of life from the power they wield.

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2003-04-03 11:37am

Minor nit:

It was the Emperor who made the "you will be destroyed!" line. When Luke was on the catwalk proclaiming he didnt think Vader would kill him now, Vader responded "You underestimate the power of the Dark Side......if you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny!" THATS when he almost took Luke's head off with the saber throw.
It's a fine point, but it seems to me that Vader was quite ready to kill Luke if he was unwilling to join him.

Stormtrooper THX-1138 · Post by **Stormtrooper THX-1138** » 2003-04-03 11:46am

The Dark Side , at least according to the Lucas audio commentary, is stronger. An argument could be made that the proof is in the pudding, however: ultimately, it is the Light which prevails overall, thus demonstrating its superiority.

Personally, I believe that Vader found the right button to push , all right; he simply underestimated the depth of his son's potential fury.He was caught off guard by the intensity of his son's attack, and was never given an opportunity to regroup or organize a defense.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-03 01:45pm

Burak Gazan wrote:Minor nit: It was the Emperor who made the "you will be destroyed!" line. When Luke was on the catwalk proclaiming he didnt think Vader would kill him now, Vader responded "You underestimate the power of the Dark Side......if you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny!" THATS when he almost took Luke's head off with the saber throw.
It's a fine point, but it seems to me that Vader was quite ready to kill Luke if he was unwilling to join him.

My mistake, Burak. Thank you for the correction. I can't believe I botch that up. I'm throwing myself off the team.

But, as you said, it looks like Vader was quite ready to kill him.

Kazeite, I didn't say Dooku was more powerful than Yoda. I sad Yoda was winded and Dooku didn't have any trouble deflecting his flurry of blows. There's a fine line of difference. And also, if you note immediately after the battle terminates, Padme rushes in with a host of Clone Troopers. This is only speculation, but Perhaps Dooku could sense them?

I will dredge up the quote.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-03 01:52pm

I found the thread it was original posted in, by a mod no less.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... ntary+aotc

Stravo wrote: I finished watching AOTC with director's commentary and Gl firmly states two things that immediately jumped out at me... [snip]

2) The Darkside IS stronger. GL says this during the scene when Anakin is returning with his mother's corpse. He says that the key ot Anakin's fall is that Anakin above all else wants power and only the dark side can give him that power because the dark side is stronger....BUT there is a price to be paid for that power. So Yoda that little lying pond scum lies to Luke on Dagobah when Luke asks him whoch is stronger. "Is the dark side stronger?" "No, quicker easier more seductive." BZZZT Yoda caught in the act. No wonder Luke goes on to become Darth Nemesis and...OH, sorry wrong story

Oh yeah as a sidenote, GL specifically mentions force lightning as a SITH SPECIFIC power during the fight scene with Dooku.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-04-03 02:23pm

Lord_Xerxes wrote:I found the thread it was original posted in, by a mod no less.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... ntary+aotc

Stravo wrote: I finished watching AOTC with director's commentary and Gl firmly states two things that immediately jumped out at me... [snip]

2) The Darkside IS stronger. GL says this during the scene when Anakin is returning with his mother's corpse. He says that the key ot Anakin's fall is that Anakin above all else wants power and only the dark side can give him that power because the dark side is stronger....BUT there is a price to be paid for that power. So Yoda that little lying pond scum lies to Luke on Dagobah when Luke asks him whoch is stronger. "Is the dark side stronger?" "No, quicker easier more seductive." BZZZT Yoda caught in the act. No wonder Luke goes on to become Darth Nemesis and...OH, sorry wrong story

Oh yeah as a sidenote, GL specifically mentions force lightning as a SITH SPECIFIC power during the fight scene with Dooku.

Minor problem for me: you've quoted Stravo, not George Lucas. I want to know exactly what Lucas said. Back to the DVD...

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-03 02:38pm

I'll do that for you, and be back with the quote in a moment.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-03 02:50pm

George Lucas wrote: We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Darkside, because the Darkside is more powerful...if you want the ultimate power, you have to go to stronger side, which is the Darkside. Which is your undoing.

Pretty cut and dry.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-04-03 02:55pm

Lord_Xerxes wrote:
George Lucas wrote: We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Darkside, because the Darkside is more powerful...if you want the ultimate power, you have to go to stronger side, which is the Darkside. Which is your undoing.
Pretty cut and dry.

Yeah it is. It's more powerful but unlike the Light Side of the Force it destroys you.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-03 02:59pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Lord_Xerxes wrote:
George Lucas wrote: We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Darkside, because the Darkside is more powerful...if you want the ultimate power, you have to go to stronger side, which is the Darkside. Which is your undoing.
Pretty cut and dry.
Yeah it is. It's more powerful but unlike the Light Side of the Force it destroys you.

Exactly. It's just like what you posted above. It's stronger, but it will corrupt and eat away at you. Thats the price you pay for the power.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-04-03 03:11pm

Lord_Xerxes wrote:
George Lucas wrote: We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Darkside, because the Darkside is more powerful...if you want the ultimate power, you have to go to stronger side, which is the Darkside. Which is your undoing.
Pretty cut and dry.

I suppose so. You could spin it my way, but why bother: the end result is the same.

Perhaps this all goes back to the whole "imbalance in the Force" issue that Anakin is supposed to ultimately fix.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-03 03:33pm

I think it's more like, the power is there...but you pay a horrible price to use it. The Darkside will eat away at you, and leave you weak in the end. Look how badly Palps turned out, as Storm brought up. He's horrible aged and wretched. Yoda, on the other hand, has survived 9 centuries. Now, this may be due to his species, but it also may not..considering how little we know about Yoda's species.

The Darkside is quick, ease, and stronger, but it also destroys you in the end. So it's balanced in that respect. You have to be conservative to use the power and survive it, IE the Light Side.

Kazeite · Post by **Kazeite** » 2003-04-03 03:38pm

Lord_Xerxes wrote:Kazeite, I didn't say Dooku was more powerful than Yoda. I sad Yoda was winded and Dooku didn't have any trouble deflecting his flurry of blows. There's a fine line of difference.

Maybe I simply misunderstood, but it appeared to me that if Dooku can easily parry Yoda's attack, then he must be more powerful than Yoda. Or more skilled with lightsabre.

BTW, wasn't someone complaining about Dooku fight style in here?

Oh well, no matter. The fact is that Yoda was unable to quickly defeat Dooku, and that GL said that DS is more powerful.

But I must confess, that up to this point I though that LS and DS are equally powerful. They are two sides of the same coin, so they must be equally powerful by default.

But, it is hard to argue with the quote from George Lucas himself

And I like your explanation, Lord Xerxes, about DS eating away its users.
If I remember correctly, there was a story about Emperor medics who were creating flawed clones for him on purpose... But still, he had to resort to cloning to prolong his life in the first place.