Coalition Cluster bombs Iraqi village

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Coalition Cluster bombs Iraqi village

Post by Ted »

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The wounds are vicious and deep, a rash of scarlet spots on the back and thighs or face, the shards of shrapnel from the cluster bombs buried an inch or more in the flesh.

The wards of the Hilla teaching hospital are proof that something illegal — something quite outside the Geneva Conventions — occurred in the villages around the city once known as Babylon.

The wailing children, the young women with breast and leg wounds, the 10 patients upon whom doctors had to perform brain surgery to remove metal from their heads, talk of the days and nights when the explosives fell "like grapes" from the sky.

Cluster bombs, the doctors say. And the detritus of the air raids around the hamlets of Nadr and Djifil, and Akramin and Mahawil, and Mohandesin and Hail Askeri shows that they are right.
The 61 dead who have passed through the Hilla hospital since Saturday night cannot tell us. Nor can the survivors who, in many cases, were sitting in their homes when the white canisters opened high above their village, spilling thousands of bomblets into the sky, exploding in the air, soaring through windows and doorways to burst indoors or bouncing off the roofs of the concrete huts to blow up later in the roadways.
Mohamed Moussa described the clusters of "little boxes" that fell out of the sky in the same village and thought they were silver-coloured. They fell like "small grapefruit," he said.

"If it hadn't exploded, and you touched it, it went off immediately," he said. "They exploded in the air and on the ground and we still have some in our home, unexploded."

Karima Mizler thought the bomblets had some kind of wires attached to them — perhaps the metal "butterfly" which contains sets of the tiny cluster bombs — that springs open to release them in showers above the ground.

Some died at once, mostly women and children, some of whose blackened, decomposing remains lie in the tiny charnel house mortuary at the back of the Hilla hospital.

The teaching college has received more than 200 wounded since Saturday night — the 61 dead are only those who were brought to the hospital, or who died during or after surgery, and many others are believed to have been buried in their villages — and of these, doctors say, about 80 per cent were civilians.
Who is to know if a tank or a missile launcher was positioned in a nearby field — as they were along the highway north to Baghdad yesterday? But the Geneva Conventions demand protection for civilians even if they are intermingled with military personnel, and the use of cluster bombs in these villages — even if aimed at military targets — thus crosses the boundaries of international law.

So it was that 27-year-old Asil Yamin came to receive those awful round wounds in her back. And five-year-old Zaman Abbais was hit in the legs and 48-year-old Samira Abdul-Hamza in the eyes, chest and legs. Her son Haidar, a 32-year-old soldier, said the containers which fell to the ground were "like a grenade."

Heartbreaking is the only word to describe 10-year-old Maryam Nasr and her five-year-old sister Hoda. Maryam has a patch over her right eye where a piece of bomblet embedded itself, and wounds to the stomach and thighs.

I didn't realize that Hoda, standing by her sister's bed, was wounded until her mother lifted the little girl's scarf and long hair to show a deep puncture in the right side of her head, just above her ear, congealed blood sticking to her hair but the wound still gently bleeding.

Their mother described how she had been inside her home and heard an explosion and found her daughters in a pool of blood near the door. The little girls alternately smiled and hid when I took their pictures.
A crew from Sky Television managed to bring a set of bomblet shrapnel back to Baghdad from Nadr with them, the wicked little metal balls that are intended to puncture the human body still locked into their frame like cough drops in a metal sheath. They were of a black colour which glinted silver against the light.

So who dropped these terrible weapons? The deputy administrator of the Hilla hospital and one of his doctors told a confused tale of military action around the city in recent days, of Apache helicopters that would disgorge special forces troops on the road to Karbala.

One of their operations — if the hospital personnel are to be believed — went spectacularly wrong one night when militiamen forced them to retreat. Shortly afterwards, the cluster bomb raids began, although the villages that were targeted appear to have been on the other side of Hilla to the abortive American attack.

One thing was clear: There is no front line in the fighting around Babylon, that U.S. forces strike into the land around the Tigris River by air and then withdraw, and that Iraqi forces do much the same in the other direction.
The most recent raid occurred on Tuesday when 11 civilians were killed, two of them women and three of them children, in a village called Hindiyeh. Needless to say, it is not the first time cluster bombs have been used against civilians. During Israel's 1982 siege of West Beirut, its air force dropped cluster bomblets manufactured for the U.S. Navy across several areas of the city, especially the Fakhani and Ouzai districts, causing ferocious and deep wounds identical to those I saw in Hilla yesterday.
This is insane, cluster bombs against civilians?
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Re: Coalition Cluster bombs Iraqi village

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Ted wrote:This is insane, cluster bombs against civilians?
If they were deliberately targetting them yes. But so far all that shows is they got hit. Tragic but it happens in war.
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Post by theski »

and you think this was deliberate?????????
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

They are supposedly outlawed (as is napalm which was used in Afghanistan some say) but the RAF and USAF is using them as a means to an end.

It is unfortunate that not all of the bomblets explode when released and so stay around like landmines, but if it gets the job done better then I see no reason to stop.

Of course, reckless use of ANY weapon system is cause for concern.
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Re: Coalition Cluster bombs Iraqi village

Post by Ted »

Stormbringer wrote:
Ted wrote:This is insane, cluster bombs against civilians?
If they were deliberately targetting them yes. But so far all that shows is they got hit. Tragic but it happens in war.
They DELIBERATELY TARGETTED troops that were IN A VILLAGE.

Therefore, they DELIBERATELY TARGETTED THE VILLAGE.
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Post by Stormbringer »

theski wrote:and you think this was deliberate?????????
Knowing Ted probably. He seems to assume the worst right from the start. Never mind their had been combat around the city with militia (how much you want to bet they look just like civilians?) and we dropped bombs. It's entirely possible they simply had the misfortune of being caught in the crossfire.
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Re: Coalition Cluster bombs Iraqi village

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Ted wrote:They DELIBERATELY TARGETTED troops that were IN A VILLAGE.

Therefore, they DELIBERATELY TARGETTED THE VILLAGE.
Where does it say that they targetted the city? All I see suggest it was outside the village by a considerable margin and that it was outlying house that got hit.
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Post by Montcalm »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:They are supposedly outlawed (as is napalm which was used in Afghanistan some say) but the RAF and USAF is using them as a means to an end.

It is unfortunate that not all of the bomblets explode when released and so stay around like landmines, but if it gets the job done better then I see no reason to stop.

Of course, reckless use of ANY weapon system is cause for concern.
Time to send in the Morrocan monkeys to clear these mines :?
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Cluster bombs have never been outlawed by the U.N. or by the Geneva Conventions. Napalm has, but the USA is not a signatory to that treaty and so is not bound to obey it. We're also not a signatory to the landmine treaty, which is what some people use to claim cluster bombs are illegal, since some components of cluster munitions (a better phrasing, as they are also fired from U.S. Artillery pieces, not just aircraft) have delayed/contact fusing. The idea that they were targeted against civilians is farcical. These are area weapons for use against large formations.
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Post by Ted »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:These are area weapons for use against large formations.
Which is EXACTLY why you do NOT use them near civilian zones.

You think that town is going to welcome Coalition troops with open arms now?
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Post by Axis Kast »

Is Ted's post supposed to lend support against the war?

I still can't see the basis on which people argue that if collatoral damage occurs, the campaign is bust and the war no longer worth fighting. Is he going to go say that we made a grievous mistake combating Hitler because Dresden was firebombed to the ground?

There's an important element Ted seems to disregard: when we miss our intended target and hit a village or a car, it's outrageous because it's so rare - at least in terms of how many bombs dropped.

What especially irks me is that Ted is using this - as some people use the example of Israel's contravention of the UN - as an attempt to stop the war. He choses to hawk on our mistakes rather than Iraq's deliberate slaughter.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Actually, Ted, there was an article in my local paper today - Newsday - that included an interview with an Iraqi who excused the deaths of civlians at war and acknowledged, "We are not angry with the U.S." He knew it was not intentional. Most people do.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Ted wrote:Which is EXACTLY why you do NOT use them near civilian zones.
Ted, that they were accidentally hit was not the same thing as deliberately targetting them. What the fuck about that don't you understand? They bombed miltia and unfortunately they hit some civilians in the area. Not suprising considering it would be hard to tell militia from civilians.
Ted wrote:You think that town is going to welcome Coalition troops with open arms now?
No. Which only argues that the US wouldn't deliberately cluster bomb a city.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Ted wrote:
Which is EXACTLY why you do NOT use them near civilian zones.

You think that town is going to welcome Coalition troops with open arms now?
Yes, actually, I do. We'll provide food and water for them, and medical care for the wounded. Saddam's thugs would have done the same thing in artillery practice, quartered in the homes of the people without permission, and randomly killed a few women as part of a terror campaign (all things that have actually happened in Iraq thanks to the Iraqi government to the Iraqi people, albeit at various times).

In comparison, a few accidental deaths is really No Big Deal. When you have to deal with the brutality of the above, throw in decades of disappearances, random terror and forced conscriptions, etc - The idea of having some of your number killed for freedom doesn't seem so bad. These people aren't soft like, hell, even Americans. Violent death is just part of life to them and I trust them to understand that shit happens, because a lot, lot more, for far more sinister reasons, has happened to them in the recent past.
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In one fell swoop, the Coalition managed to kill as many civilians as soldiers they've lost so far (though I may not be up-to-date on the casualty toll; I assume it's higher). Sixty-one may not seem significant in the overall scheme of things, but this was all at once. Imagine how many civilians we'll end up killing when we go for Baghdad. How would you feel if you gained your freedom from a ruthless dictator, but you had to pay your liberators with the lives of your wife and children?
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Post by Darth Garden Gnome »

Durandal wrote:In one fell swoop, the Coalition managed to kill as many civilians as soldiers they've lost so far (though I may not be up-to-date on the casualty toll; I assume it's higher). Sixty-one may not seem significant in the overall scheme of things, but this was all at once. Imagine how many civilians we'll end up killing when we go for Baghdad. How would you feel if you gained your freedom from a ruthless dictator, but you had to pay your liberators with the lives of your wife and children?
I believe it goes: "If the ends justify the means."

Sure, it would suck to lose your wife and kids to an accidental attack, but this is just a small percentage of people. The Coalition has the potential to save untold numbers of lives from the ruthless dicatatorship. In the end we'll save more civilian lives than take.
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Post by Darth Garden Gnome »

In fact, lets look at it from the flip side of the coin, shall we? Some Iraqi thugs under Saddam come into your house and kill your wife. How then would you feel when your liberators show up, knowing that your children would be safe from this brutality?
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Durandal wrote:In one fell swoop, the Coalition managed to kill as many civilians as soldiers they've lost so far (though I may not be up-to-date on the casualty toll; I assume it's higher). Sixty-one may not seem significant in the overall scheme of things, but this was all at once. Imagine how many civilians we'll end up killing when we go for Baghdad. How would you feel if you gained your freedom from a ruthless dictator, but you had to pay your liberators with the lives of your wife and children?
You want freedom, you've got to be willing to sacrifice to the final extremity for it. The Dutch kept fighting the Spanish for decades to gain independence, and the Spanish committed atrocities that make some of Saddam's pale to try and suppress that revolt. In the south, the loyalists in the Revolutionary War often committed atrocities against the Patriot population.

The only difference is that the Iraqi populace - excepting the Kurds - is largely passive in this case. But that isn't an extreme degree of difference from relying on the English or the French for the decisive edge in gaining your freedom. You still have to be willing to make sacrifices. In this case, the sacrifice of the Iraqi people for their freedom is the simply named and rather whitewashed category of "collateral damage", and the impetous they have for enduring it is the memory of decades of far worse torture.
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Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Durandal wrote:In one fell swoop, the Coalition managed to kill as many civilians as soldiers they've lost so far (though I may not be up-to-date on the casualty toll; I assume it's higher). Sixty-one may not seem significant in the overall scheme of things, but this was all at once. Imagine how many civilians we'll end up killing when we go for Baghdad. How would you feel if you gained your freedom from a ruthless dictator, but you had to pay your liberators with the lives of your wife and children?
I believe it goes: "If the ends justify the means."

Sure, it would suck to lose your wife and kids to an accidental attack, but this is just a small percentage of people. The Coalition has the potential to save untold numbers of lives from the ruthless dicatatorship. In the end we'll save more civilian lives than take.
It's not just the lives of the civilians who were killed or related to someone who was killed that are affected. This kind of mass slaughter creates an extremely negative opinion of the Coalition. I'd be surprised if civilian towns in our way knew whether to feel happy or afraid that they'd be the next "mistake." Like it or not, the Iraqi people aren't going to see this as lightly and callously as people over here seem to.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Durandal wrote:Like it or not, the Iraqi people aren't going to see this as lightly and callously as people over here seem to.
Yes, they are, Damien. You're making the mistake of projecting your own mindset onto a people who have suffered from decades under a brutal regime which killed over a million of its own people. These people are used to death, torture, disappearence or execution of close relatives, starvation, general hardship, and plain old suffering. A thousand or so civilians dying to end this is not going to seem like a remotely unfair trade - Certainly not to the minds of the people who have actually had to endure that and become used to that sort of daily violence and depravation.
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Post by Darth Garden Gnome »

Durandal wrote:It's not just the lives of the civilians who were killed or related to someone who was killed that are affected. This kind of mass slaughter creates an extremely negative opinion of the Coalition. I'd be surprised if civilian towns in our way knew whether to feel happy or afraid that they'd be the next "mistake." Like it or not, the Iraqi people aren't going to see this as lightly and callously as people over here seem to.
Lets put it this way: what would make you feel more safe? In a town where Saddams thugs could drag you out of your home and beat you to death(ect.) at any moment. Or in a town that has a minor chance of accidnetally being bombed by the Colaition?

One of the reasons that the Iraqis will frown upon Colaition forces is because they can't frown upon Saddams regime, because if they do, he'll kill you! They can openly "protest" against Coaltion forces because Saddam actually wants them to. I'm sure they'll be some that'll hold a grudge, but many, many more will be thankful when they don't have to live in fear of Saddams regime.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Do we have confirmation on this? I dunno the reputation of the Toronto Star but I've seen a lot of shoddy reporting. Fox reports the surrender of several small nations at the same time a foreign network is claiming the Americans have been driven from Iraq. I would like to wait to see if this is verified.
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Post by Ted »

HemlockGrey wrote:Do we have confirmation on this? I dunno the reputation of the Toronto Star but I've seen a lot of shoddy reporting. Fox reports the surrender of several small nations at the same time a foreign network is claiming the Americans have been driven from Iraq. I would like to wait to see if this is verified.
The Star is one of the top three papers in Canada.
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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Durandal wrote:Like it or not, the Iraqi people aren't going to see this as lightly and callously as people over here seem to.
Yes, they are, Damien. You're making the mistake of projecting your own mindset onto a people who have suffered from decades under a brutal regime which killed over a million of its own people. These people are used to death, torture, disappearence or execution of close relatives, starvation, general hardship, and plain old suffering. A thousand or so civilians dying to end this is not going to seem like a remotely unfair trade - Certainly not to the minds of the people who have actually had to endure that and become used to that sort of daily violence and depravation.
Afterward, perhaps. But fuck-ups on a scale like this simply put the next village in fear of being cluster-bombed by the people who are supposed to liberate them. If these people are so willing to sacrifice themselves for freedom, then why haven't they risen up against Saddam yet?

This reminds me of Shrek, when the prince is giving his speech, about to send knights after the dragon.

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Durandal wrote: Afterward, perhaps. But fuck-ups on a scale like this simply put the next village in fear of being cluster-bombed by the people who are supposed to liberate them. If these people are so willing to sacrifice themselves for freedom, then why haven't they risen up against Saddam yet?
Because they know that wont work.
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