Coalition Cluster bombs Iraqi village

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Post by Darth Garden Gnome »

Durandal wrote:Afterward, perhaps. But fuck-ups on a scale like this simply put the next village in fear of being cluster-bombed by the people who are supposed to liberate them.
Again, where would you feel safer? In a town where Iraqi thugs could, at any moment, come into your home and kill you, or in a town where there is a very minor chance of being bombed? Frankly, they're in extreme danger either way, but with teh Coalitions help, they can eliminate either dangerforever.
Durandal wrote:If these people are so willing to sacrifice themselves for freedom, then why haven't they risen up against Saddam yet?
IIRC they did. They got their asses kicked.
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Post by Ted »

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Durandal wrote:If these people are so willing to sacrifice themselves for freedom, then why haven't they risen up against Saddam yet?
IIRC they did. They got their asses kicked.
They got their asses kicked because the US let the Iraqis kill them.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Yes, Ted, we did. And now we're back. And that's not going to happen a second time.

Seriously - why must you prattle? What do you intend to prove or push for with your constant harping on the negatives? A withdrawal? An end to a war you disagree with on the basis that we're such a bad country? Please. Give me a fucking break.

As for Durandal, what are you getting at, pal? I agree that some Iraqis are going to be heartbroken, vengeful, angry, or distraught. But that's far from a majority. We'll deal with those who have been hurt by the war - in all its forms, and by all sides -, but I doubt it'll change very much of what happens. What, exactly, is your argument?
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Post by Durandal »

Axis Kast wrote:As for Durandal, what are you getting at, pal? I agree that some Iraqis are going to be heartbroken, vengeful, angry, or distraught. But that's far from a majority. We'll deal with those who have been hurt by the war - in all its forms, and by all sides -, but I doubt it'll change very much of what happens. What, exactly, is your argument?
It's more my beef. The pro-war people just don't seem to give a fuck about Iraqi civilians. We could accidentally fucking napalm a village and kill hundreds of innocents, and it'd all just be chalked up to "well in war this stuff happens."
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Post by Darth Wong »

Stormbringer wrote:
Ted wrote:Which is EXACTLY why you do NOT use them near civilian zones.
Ted, that they were accidentally hit was not the same thing as deliberately targetting them. What the fuck about that don't you understand? They bombed miltia and unfortunately they hit some civilians in the area. Not suprising considering it would be hard to tell militia from civilians.
Huh? Cluster bombs are area-effect weapons, not precision munitions. You can't drop cluster bombs on a "militia" which happens to be located within a civilian area unless you have chosen to disregard civilian casualties beforehand.

Obviously, what happened was that some soldiers took fire from that town, and immediately called in an airstrike. It's not a decision made from the top, but rather, poor judgement in the field. The question is whether anyone will be disciplined for this action, since you should not use those kinds of weapons in that situation, given the stated goal of keeping civilian casualties to a minimum.
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Post by Montcalm »

Darth Wong wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Ted wrote:Which is EXACTLY why you do NOT use them near civilian zones.
Ted, that they were accidentally hit was not the same thing as deliberately targetting them. What the fuck about that don't you understand? They bombed miltia and unfortunately they hit some civilians in the area. Not suprising considering it would be hard to tell militia from civilians.
Huh? Cluster bombs are area-effect weapons, not precision munitions. You can't drop cluster bombs on a "militia" which happens to be located within a civilian area unless you have chosen to disregard civilian casualties beforehand.

Obviously, what happened was that some soldiers took fire from that town, and immediately called in an airstrike. It's not a decision made from the top, but rather, poor judgement in the field. The question is whether anyone will be disciplined for this action, since you should not use those kinds of weapons in that situation, given the stated goal of keeping civilian casualties to a minimum.
The pilot who answered the call and went in with the bombs is a fucking idiot. :evil:
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Post by Stormbringer »

Huh? Cluster bombs are area-effect weapons, not precision munitions. You can't drop cluster bombs on a "militia" which happens to be located within a civilian area unless you have chosen to disregard civilian casualties beforehand.
Not necessarily. If they were fighting militia and couldn't tell them from civilians they might well have thought they were all militia.
Obviously, what happened was that some soldiers took fire from that town, and immediately called in an airstrike. It's not a decision made from the top, but rather, poor judgement in the field. The question is whether anyone will be disciplined for this action, since you should not use those kinds of weapons in that situation, given the stated goal of keeping civilian casualties to a minimum.
It was probably a bad call. But if they took fire from people that they assumed to be soldiers then they were right to call in airstrikes. When you can't seperate "soldiers" from civilians things like this tend to get messy.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Darth Wong wrote: Huh? Cluster bombs are area-effect weapons, not precision munitions. You can't drop cluster bombs on a "militia" which happens to be located within a civilian area unless you have chosen to disregard civilian casualties beforehand.
Actually the USAF has guided cluster bombs and the dispersion of the bomblets can be adjusted. You can't really change the shape, but you can change the dimensions of the area affected to be quite small.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Montcalm wrote:The pilot who answered the call and went in with the bombs is a fucking idiot. :evil:
I'm sure you know the pilots exact briefing, all updates they received in flight, the situation on the ground, the pilots aim point and all other specific data that's needed to make such a call. :roll:
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Post by weemadando »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Huh? Cluster bombs are area-effect weapons, not precision munitions. You can't drop cluster bombs on a "militia" which happens to be located within a civilian area unless you have chosen to disregard civilian casualties beforehand.
Actually the USAF has guided cluster bombs and the dispersion of the bomblets can be adjusted. You can't really change the shape, but you can change the dimensions of the area affected to be quite small.
So if an al'qaeda cell was holed up next door to you, you wouldn't have any objections to the USAF dropping a cluster bomb on them? I mean, you'd happily sit there and die screaming as you bleed out from multiple fragmentation wounds, your eardrums burst from the overpressure, and feel good about it, because, dang nabbit, you're boys nailed those a-rab terrorists good?

Get real.
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Post by Montcalm »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Montcalm wrote:The pilot who answered the call and went in with the bombs is a fucking idiot. :evil:
I'm sure you know the pilots exact briefing, all updates they received in flight, the situation on the ground, the pilots aim point and all other specific data that's needed to make such a call. :roll:
Anyway that will give one more reason to the anti-war protesters to say Americans kill Civilians :roll:
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

weemadando wrote:
So if an al'qaeda cell was holed up next door to you, you wouldn't have any objections to the USAF dropping a cluster bomb on them? I mean, you'd happily sit there and die screaming as you bleed out from multiple fragmentation wounds, your eardrums burst from the overpressure, and feel good about it, because, dang nabbit, you're boys nailed those a-rab terrorists good?

Get real.

This is related to my post how? Yes, the asnwer would be not at all.
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Post by weemadando »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
weemadando wrote:
So if an al'qaeda cell was holed up next door to you, you wouldn't have any objections to the USAF dropping a cluster bomb on them? I mean, you'd happily sit there and die screaming as you bleed out from multiple fragmentation wounds, your eardrums burst from the overpressure, and feel good about it, because, dang nabbit, you're boys nailed those a-rab terrorists good?

Get real.

This is related to my post how? Yes, the asnwer would be not at all.
You attempt to justify the use of cluster bombs in a built up area. How justifiable can it fucking well be?
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Post by MKSheppard »

weemadando wrote: You attempt to justify the use of cluster bombs in a built up area. How justifiable can it fucking well be?
:roll:

Shit happens. Would you rather have the guy's eardrums get blown out
by the 120mm HEAT round slamming into the Republican Guard hideout
next door?
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Post by Burak Gazan »

Ted wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:Do we have confirmation on this? I dunno the reputation of the Toronto Star but I've seen a lot of shoddy reporting. Fox reports the surrender of several small nations at the same time a foreign network is claiming the Americans have been driven from Iraq. I would like to wait to see if this is verified.
The Star is one of the top three papers in Canada.
Yeah, just ask them...... :roll:

The Toronto Star is the bastion of the Liberal left, their reporting has been somewhat biased for a long time. OTOH, your alternatives are the National Post (far right) Globe and Mail (utter boredom) or Toronto Sun (at least has page 3 girls, but composed of ads otherwise...) so I suppose if you skim 'em all it'd average out...... :wink:
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Post by Darth Wong »

Burak Gazan wrote:The Toronto Star is the bastion of the Liberal left, their reporting has been somewhat biased for a long time.
And this translates to the conclusion that they're fabricating information ... how?
OTOH, your alternatives are the National Post (far right) Globe and Mail (utter boredom) or Toronto Sun (at least has page 3 girls, but composed of ads otherwise...) so I suppose if you skim 'em all it'd average out...... :wink:
Please look up "ad-hominem". Unless you can show that the Star routinely LIES, your accusations of editorial bias are completely and utterly irrelevant.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

weemadando wrote:
You attempt to justify the use of cluster bombs in a built up area. How justifiable can it fucking well be?
It depends on the situation and what the alternatives are. Dropping unitary bombs could easily have killed just as many when buildings are collapsed onto hiding people, while leaving soldiers in nearby trenches unharmed. Fighting it out with direct fire could lead to a prolonged battle that kills countless civilians and a bunch of US troops.

Do you know the situation, what assets where available, why the air strike was conducted was made or even if this single article is correct and accurate?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Do you know the situation, what assets where available, why the air strike was conducted was made or even if this single article is correct and accurate?
Unless the reporter's description of the bomblets and the interviews with survivors are all lies, I'd say that the USAF did indeed drop a cluster bomb on a residential area.
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Post by Beowulf »

Is there any confirmation of this story from a different newspaper?

I can't find it on the Independent's website, which employs the writer...
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Post by Beowulf »

D'oh... Maybe I should have looked somewhere other than Middle eastern news...
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Darth Wong wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Do you know the situation, what assets where available, why the air strike was conducted was made or even if this single article is correct and accurate?
Unless the reporter's description of the bomblets and the interviews with survivors are all lies, I'd say that the USAF did indeed drop a cluster bomb on a residential area.
I'd believe it if confirmed. However an accurate description of a bomblet is not what I'd call difficult to do, you can obtain a description and photo of just about every bomblet in the US inventory at globalsecuirty.org and several other sites and writing a fake interview is also quite simple.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Sea Skimmer wrote:I'd believe it if confirmed. However an accurate description of a bomblet is not what I'd call difficult to do, you can obtain a description and photo of just about every bomblet in the US inventory at globalsecuirty.org and several other sites and writing a fake interview is also quite simple.
Are you seriously arguing that the reporter is engaging in outright fraud now? Let's be honest with ourselves; the list of stories which are denied and dismissed but later confirmed true has been growing and growing ever since this war started. It is becoming a pattern.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Unless the reporter's description of the bomblets and the interviews with survivors are all lies, I'd say that the USAF did indeed drop a cluster bomb on a residential area.
It's fairly important to identify the bias of an article. Value-laden wording or sensationalized journalism often make a difference in influencing the reader’s opinion – especially if the analysis is colored red. Journalism might be factually correct yet lead the reader to pre-ordained conclusions nonetheless.
So if an al'qaeda cell was holed up next door to you, you wouldn't have any objections to the USAF dropping a cluster bomb on them? I mean, you'd happily sit there and die screaming as you bleed out from multiple fragmentation wounds, your eardrums burst from the overpressure, and feel good about it, because, dang nabbit, you're boys nailed those a-rab terrorists good?
I’m sure there’s a technical term for this – you know, when somebody produces a hypothetical scenario with which to draw parallels but does so in biased fashion.

We’re not talking about a row of flats; it’s more like a whole fucking town. We’re not talking about an al-Qaeda cell but potentially dozens of armed fighters whose defensive positions were apparently strong enough to warrant calling in an air strike.
I'm sure you know the pilots exact briefing, all updates they received in flight, the situation on the ground, the pilots aim point and all other specific data that's needed to make such a call.
Finally, somebody who at least acknowledges reason.
It's more my beef. The pro-war people just don't seem to give a fuck about Iraqi civilians. We could accidentally fucking napalm a village and kill hundreds of innocents, and it'd all just be chalked up to "well in war this stuff happens."
What do you want us to say?

We acknowledge that it is (A) horrible, (B) heart-wrenching, and (C) from time to time inexcusable (given the information that comes out subsequent to the tragedy). This still doesn’t make the situation go away.

Those who make similar arguments – ie, Ted and Weemadando – are doing so to attempt and decry the war as a whole. They are essentially telling us that these events are indicative of a failed war effort or an “evil” conspiracy and justify a withdrawal or immediate end to the war. In doing so they conveniently forget to rail against Saddam Hussein, a man whose soldiers shoot civilians intentionally rather than by mistake.

Don’t forget that people lose their careers and their minds over this. Friendly-fire attacks leave all sides scarred for life. The damage should be contained and the situation reviewed. Beyond that, I’m not sure we need to continue the discussion.
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Post by weemadando »

Axis Kast wrote:
Unless the reporter's description of the bomblets and the interviews with survivors are all lies, I'd say that the USAF did indeed drop a cluster bomb on a residential area.
It's fairly important to identify the bias of an article. Value-laden wording or sensationalized journalism often make a difference in influencing the reader’s opinion – especially if the analysis is colored red. Journalism might be factually correct yet lead the reader to pre-ordained conclusions nonetheless.
So if an al'qaeda cell was holed up next door to you, you wouldn't have any objections to the USAF dropping a cluster bomb on them? I mean, you'd happily sit there and die screaming as you bleed out from multiple fragmentation wounds, your eardrums burst from the overpressure, and feel good about it, because, dang nabbit, you're boys nailed those a-rab terrorists good?
I’m sure there’s a technical term for this – you know, when somebody produces a hypothetical scenario with which to draw parallels but does so in biased fashion.

We’re not talking about a row of flats; it’s more like a whole fucking town. We’re not talking about an al-Qaeda cell but potentially dozens of armed fighters whose defensive positions were apparently strong enough to warrant calling in an air strike.
What I was trying to point out to Sea Skimmer was that its not as clear cut as he likes to think it is and that cluster bombs are messy fucking things that do kill PEOPLE, not just soldiers. For fucks sake, they were dropping area effect weapons on a built up area... That shows a blatant disregard for the civilians of Iraq who, to quote Shrub "will be treated with the utmost respect."

Those who make similar arguments – ie, Ted and Weemadando – are doing so to attempt and decry the war as a whole. They are essentially telling us that these events are indicative of a failed war effort or an “evil” conspiracy and justify a withdrawal or immediate end to the war. In doing so they conveniently forget to rail against Saddam Hussein, a man whose soldiers shoot civilians intentionally rather than by mistake.
I'm not trying to decry the war as a whole, I'm trying to say that the US should be a bit more fucking careful in what they do.

You forget that both the Australians and British have had pilots refuse to engage targets because of the risk of civilian deaths. This is just another example of the UTTER DISREGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE that seems to be prevalent in the US military planning.
Don’t forget that people lose their careers and their minds over this. Friendly-fire attacks leave all sides scarred for life. The damage should be contained and the situation reviewed. Beyond that, I’m not sure we need to continue the discussion.
Unfortunately any blame for this attack lies with the pilot as it is his perogative to question the orders given to him by his superiors as laid down by the Nuremberg trials. Perhaps it would do them some good to question authority every now and then.
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Post by Darth Garden Gnome »

weemadando wrote:I'm not trying to decry the war as a whole, I'm trying to say that the US should be a bit more fucking careful in what they do.

You forget that both the Australians and British have had pilots refuse to engage targets because of the risk of civilian deaths. This is just another example of the UTTER DISREGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE that seems to be prevalent in the US military planning.
*gasp* US piolots follow orders? Heaven forbid! :roll:
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