The stance hasn't been clear. It's been in question the whole time. I will conceed to you that in Destiny's Way, Luke has a bit more motivation as far as allowing the Jedi to actively participate. But it's not like they hadn't participated before. Your argument is that Vergere's teachings of the Force as far as No Dark or Light is what changed him. I disagree entirely. Vergere helps Luke over the hurdle of the Vong being outside the Force, and that's what helps Luke reach these conclusions.
And the stance has been clear, after he spoke to Vergere he changed his point of view, even Durron asked something like "why this sudden change of view" and ofcourse then wanting to hit him.
Destiny's way pg 299 wrote: "What changed your mind?" Kyp's gaze was wary.
"New information." Luke looked up. "From Jacen Solo, and from Vergere. It's nt possible to understand that the Yuuzhan Vong aren't some exception to the rules of creation. If we can't see them in the Force, it's our fault, not theirs. We can fight them without wanting to wipe them from existance. We can fight them without hate, and without darkness."
Please provide the evidence that they "most definetly asked Lucas' permission about this matter. If you can, then I will conceed the point. If you cannot, then you are making a hasty assumption.And I think it's been hinted at since the movies.
Not that it matters becase this is such a big thing that they most definitly asked Lucas permission before going on with it, just like they did with killing Chewie.
How is it's color different make it a different power? It's still Force Lightning. Is it exhibiting some other different properties that my memory are not calling up? It's the same power, with a different color. That doesn't sound all that different to me. Furthermore, also in the AOTC commentary, Lucas states that Force Lightning is a Darkside only power. He doesn't say that it's a "Grey, sitting on the middle of the fence power." A color difference hardly denotes a new power. I know the games don't fare much on the order of canon and official, but Plo Koon has a yellow Force lightning in Jedi Power Battles.
Assumption by you, but infact the green force-lightning is an entierly new concept not seen before.
Exactly. It's convient that Uncle Luke isn't around when Jacen can freely tap into these dark powers. IIRC, you don't see Jacen touting Vergere's euphisms for using the Darkside around him too much either. That was my whole point. He'd get his ass reamed for doing it.You don't see them fighting together do you? Do you think he just throws tantrums now like a kid or what?
If the mindset works, then why isn't Luke, who is aware of it, not openly prescribing to it and openly teaching it to his students? Yes, Vergere taught Jacen how to deal with pain. And that might have been good for him in the long run. But if these lessons were so good, then why isn't it being adopted by the rest of the Jedi?Because the mindset works, the new mindset is less strict and we all saw what Jacen had to go through to learn it.
The films take precident over the books. And Yoda speaks nothing about there being no darkside and lightside. He clearly denotes two seperate sides of the Force, and warns Luke heavily about them. I hardly call that an assumption for me to say that if it were true, he would have said so.Assumption, and I say it's wrong.
Pgs 298 and 300, both references to the Darkside of the Force and not the dark side within oneself. "turn to the dark side because i misread the situation." What, the term "turn to the dark side" which Luke and dozens of other SW characters have used for so long sudddenly does not mean "of the Force" anymore because they do not include those unecessary words? And suddenly, they mean the darkness within?And they call it the Dark too, the problem is you making it out to mean something, Vergere didn't even bother to correct Luke on the use of the word "dark side" and why should she? It means both things just as well, you have to prove your assumption that a character is specifically reffering to the force and not the new philosophy.
You made it out to mean something first, when you said that Luke was refering to it as "The Dark" and not "the darkside of the Force". But really, we're arguing semantics here.
The reason why it hasn't altered it yet is because it isn't being teached. And that's the problem with it. It it was such a good philosphy, Luke would begin sharing it, and be excited about doing so. He isn't. Do you want to know why? Because he's not suddenly going to tell his students, "Hey guys. It's alright. You can give in to your anger and use those dark side powers. There is no darkside of the Force anymore."*snip*
No, your point about it must mean the dark side of the force is the problem, this you have not proven, it proves nothing since the new philosophy does not alter the current Jedi modus operandi any.
Please elaborate on how you "know" you are right. I'm not saying that the concept is stupid, or that it isn't more in-depth. I vastly enjoyed "Traitor" and Vergere's lessons about the nature of life. But, the problem herein lies with the fact that it negates all the previous teachings of a galaxy for thousands upon thousands of years before it. And that is like a Christian shitting on a bible in the middle of mass.I pretty much know I am right, and I for one am excited by this, even in the movies that whole concept seemed so inadequate and limited.
I never said I didn't like it. You'll see my feelings about it above. You assumed I didn't like it. And really, my personal opinions of it amount to jack shit. They're irrelevant.I think you're just taking that path in particular because you don't like it, it's pretty clear in the series where the sense of right and wrong is, this definitly right.
I not saying Yoda was wrong. I'm saying that if this teaching was true, then Yoda would be wrong. How do you know what Yoda has been through in his entire 900 year life? We've seen a pretty small window of that life. We don't even know his species, where he comes from, his planet. You're the one jumping to conclusions here. Yoda may or may not have been through the same things as Vergere. But that's irrelevant, he was the pinnacle of Jedi Masters. Period. Vergere doesn't touch him. That's whats important. And if this teaching was true, it would make him a liar (which, as a side note, wouldn't exactly surprise me considering the direction of the other thread.). But I think lying to the person that was more than likely his last chance (other than Leia) at toppling the Emperor would throw his whole character into jepodary. And I would think that if there was this teaching, then Yoda would be able to show Luke how to use his anger and his calmness, and use the darkside powers to fight the Emperor. Obviously, this was not the case. Yoda warned Luke to stay away from the Darkside.You keep on saying Yoda is wrong, I don't see this, heck so what if Yoda was wrong? He has not been through the same that Vergere did, he's not automatically right.
And so what if Yoda knows it? He could not put Luke through what Jacen went through.
The debate isn't silly. It's a flash-point right now since "Traitor" came out. And it has been so far, the longest running and best debate I've had since i came to SD.net. You've been a very fair debater, and haven't resorted to any cheap tactics (ad homenim, etc).Frankly this whole debate is silly, it's just over interprepting words and trying to shoehorn whatever ideas one wants to into them, and it's mostly a shitload of assumptions too, like how it has to imply a drastical change, it has to happen to all the jedi, it has to happen at once, every mention of the word Dark Side somehow means Vergere is wrong etc etc etc.
No thank you, I'll just sit out this debate with the knowledge of what is to come anyway-
But by all means, if you refuse to carry on with it, then please present your evidence of the "knowledge of what is to come." And if you present it, I will conceed these points to you. That's all I ask for.