Upcoming Evolution Debate with brother

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-03 09:42pm

The Bible also says that God created birds before dinosaurs. Wrong again.

walsingham · Post by **walsingham** » 2003-04-03 09:51pm

I see no one has mentioned the premier site on the web to address this controversy: Talk Origins

Another good site is: Ebon Musings

My experience has been that it is extremely unlikely for someone to convince a deeply religious person to change their beliefs through logical, rational means. But it is certainly a good way for you to practice defending evolution. Someday you may feel compelled to do so in front of your child's school board as they contemplate allowing creationism as a viable scientific alternative in the classroom.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2003-04-03 10:51pm

walsingham wrote:I see no one has mentioned the premier site on the web to address this controversy: Talk Origins

Another good site is: Ebon Musings

My experience has been that it is extremely unlikely for someone to convince a deeply religious person to change their beliefs through logical, rational means. But it is certainly a good way for you to practice defending evolution. Someday you may feel compelled to do so in front of your child's school board as they contemplate allowing creationism as a viable scientific alternative in the classroom.

NOOB! *POKE*

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-04-04 01:38am

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

*Dives*

*Takes the poke for the n00b*

*With his dying breath* But... he... condemned... creationists!...

*Expires*

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2003-04-04 02:05am

Oh Joy a NOOB!

*POKE*

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2003-04-04 01:21pm

Ask him to explain the human appendix

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-04-04 02:51pm

Due to a clerical error, 3 Imperator class Star Destroyers have been reclassified as com-links and are on sale at Naval Surplus for 12 cr each

Yes! Someone else has read that Galaxy Guide edition (I think it's number 9).

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-04-04 03:53pm

UltraViolence83 wrote: Ask him why dinosaurs lived 65 million years ago, yet are not in the Bible.

Then he'll pull a Kent Hovind and claim that the dragons of old are the same creatures as dinosaurs.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-04-04 04:15pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
UltraViolence83 wrote: Ask him why dinosaurs lived 65 million years ago, yet are not in the Bible.
Then he'll pull a Kent Hovind and claim that the dragons of old are the same creatures as dinosaurs.

Even though they didn't fly, didn't have wings, didn't breathe fire, et cetera.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-04-04 04:27pm

Durandal wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:
UltraViolence83 wrote: Ask him why dinosaurs lived 65 million years ago, yet are not in the Bible.
Then he'll pull a Kent Hovind and claim that the dragons of old are the same creatures as dinosaurs.
Even though they didn't fly, didn't have wings, didn't breathe fire, et cetera.

Some had wings and flew.

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2003-04-04 04:40pm

Turn the tables on him and ask has Creationism has been ever observed after you have proved your arguments. In the greats words of me: "Whoa, you just him threw out of your sneezy my wheezy straight up in his heezy, yo." Or something like that.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2003-04-04 06:11pm

Understand this.
Faith,is not argueable.(Try to talk someone out of being in love some time. "But I LOVE her" is the catch all answer.)
To the extent that he is using faith, as a method of getting the truth, you will be unable to change his mind.

Why is this debait taking place in the first place?

If you think you can reason him out of his beliefs, you are sadly mistaken.
If he thinks he will convince you of anything, he is wrong.

Perhaps he can reconfigure his faith, and keep it, minus the cosmological element.(The divine Mystery.)

Don't even START a debait like this, unless he admits there is even a POSSIBILITY of changing his mind. Anyone, who says, in advance, there is no possibility of a change of their mind, but let's debait anyway, is being dishonest. They are using the RUSE, of a debait, as a forum for prosletising.Your brother probably has no intention of holding a debait. He wants an arguement, without the structure, and rules of a debait.

I call this the fundy "Debait and switch" tactic. This works best with an audience.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-04-04 06:16pm

neoolong wrote:
Durandal wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote: Then he'll pull a Kent Hovind and claim that the dragons of old are the same creatures as dinosaurs.
Even though they didn't fly, didn't have wings, didn't breathe fire, et cetera.
Some had wings and flew.

Ptersaurs where not dinosaurs. Nor was even the biggest one capable of lifting a person off the ground.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-04-04 06:18pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
neoolong wrote:
Durandal wrote: Even though they didn't fly, didn't have wings, didn't breathe fire, et cetera.
Some had wings and flew.
Ptersaurs where not dinosaurs. Nor was even the biggest one capable of lifting a person off the ground.

Bah, depends if you count the Archaeopteryx as a dinosaur.

walsingham · Post by **walsingham** » 2003-04-04 08:05pm

Faram wrote:Oh Joy a NOOB!

*POKE*

Poke

1) to prod

2) to project

3) to meddle

4) to act aimlessly

5) to ridicule

I guess I inadvertently stumbled into a Mensa group. My Bad.

SAMAS · Post by **SAMAS** » 2003-04-04 08:19pm

walsingham wrote:
Faram wrote:Oh Joy a NOOB!

*POKE*
Poke

1) to prod

2) to project

3) to meddle

4) to act aimlessly

5) to ridicule

I guess I inadvertently stumbled into a Mensa group. My Bad.

Nah, it's actually only semi-mocking. It's a traditional froum greeting to poke newbies. In the tense of the first definition.

Oh yeah, and(grabs shot lancer)...

*poke*

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-04-04 08:23pm

neoolong wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
neoolong wrote: Some had wings and flew.
Ptersaurs where not dinosaurs. Nor was even the biggest one capable of lifting a person off the ground.
Bah, depends if you count the Archaeopteryx as a dinosaur.

Like the platypus, I classify that creature as a Royal Fuck-Up.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2003-04-04 10:17pm

-Vorlon walks into room-
-Vorlon departs-
n00-Bee is *poked*

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-04 10:20pm

I once had a creationist tell me that "time is the magic wand of evolutionists." This was his way of trying to say that it has never been observed. I responded by telling him that his whole entire belief system, his world veiw of life, is based off of a magical sky fairy.

They usually cannot see the stupidity of their statements.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-04-05 02:25am

Durandal wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:
UltraViolence83 wrote: Ask him why dinosaurs lived 65 million years ago, yet are not in the Bible.
Then he'll pull a Kent Hovind and claim that the dragons of old are the same creatures as dinosaurs.
Even though they didn't fly, didn't have wings, didn't breathe fire, et cetera.

Not all mythological dragons are winged. For example, the Wyrm of Midgaard (the best-known dragon of Norse mythology) was just a giant snake with horns.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-05 02:32am

Superman wrote:I once had a creationist tell me that "time is the magic wand of evolutionists." This was his way of trying to say that it has never been observed. I responded by telling him that his whole entire belief system, his world veiw of life, is based off of a magical sky fairy.

They usually cannot see the stupidity of their statements.

Our magic wand is time. Their magic wand is the sky fairy. Guess which one of those "magic wands" is known to exist?

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2003-04-05 06:27am

Do you want case studies? How about the following sequence of dinosaurs:

Sinosauropteryx - Compognathus like dinosaur covered with fluffy down

Velociraptor - had semilunate carpels (wrist bones) that birds use to give them the movement needed to fly

Allosaurus - had fused clavicles (i.e. a Wishbone)

Caudiopteryx - again, skeletally dinosaurs, but possessing fully vaned feathers

Archaeopteryx - a bird by definition only (Aves is defined as Archaeopteryx and extinct birds and all descendants of their most recent common ancestor- dodgy group? methinks so)
Archaeopteryx has the following bird features:
- a semilunate carpel; true, asymmetric feathers; a light, pnaumatci skeleton; fused clavicles (wishbone); bipedal; 3 forward toes and a hallux (backward first toe)

and the following reptilian features:
reptilian-like skull, possessing teeth; claws on the forelimb; a long, moveable tail; an unossified skeleton; and was probably ectothermic.

Make your brother lump Archaeopteryx into a class, then have him explain the features that belong to the other class.