Warcraft(1,2,3) VS Lord of the Rings

[Master of Ossus]

I know all about the Burning Legion. I really don't think that they would make much of a difference against the LotR armies in the First or Second Ages, but they are the trump card against the Third Age.

I disagree. There is an ENTIRE planet of Eredars. Each of them would easily be on the level of Sauron (as far as combat powress) considering that they are immune to every "normal" weapon, are immune to magic attacks and have stronger combat spells than Sauron. Sauron never approached the "Finger of Death" style insta-kill that Archimonde did.

And the BL's grunt troop is a Inferno, which is basically a mini-Balrog with Magic Immunity. The BL would easily wipe out the Elves/Dwarves/Men of LotR. It would come down to Maia versus the Eredar + Titans. And the Titans created an entire universe, not just a single planet, so I would have to give them the nod.

The problem is, most of LotR depends heavily on Magic in the upper tier of combat. With the Eredar, Infero immune to magic, the Dread Lords resistant to magic, the Felhounds devouring magic, the Warcraft Universe stands an EXCELLENT chance to force the Maia into melee combat (of course, the Maia aren't immune to magic so they would be affected by the BL's spells). That is the key. LotR depends WAAAAAAAY too heavily on magic, and with that stripped away, I strongly belive Warcraft would beat them.

Hmmm.... Perhaps you are correct. Concession granted. Sorry about that. I don't think they are as strong as Sauron, but they are certainly more powerful than I gave them credit for. And powerful enough to turn the tide in numbers.

[Silver Paladin]

Of course he never wanted to be like Sauron, right ? There is no Saurou in WC....Geez. something as simple as a comparasion, Sauron is a minor god. That is the intention of Archimonde.

No. Archimonde wanted to be Saergas; a MAJOR TITAN. He was the greatest Titan ever, and was elected by the pantheon to keep the peace. Too bad he went insane. In fact, Minor gods would be people like Elune, Goddess of the Moon. The Titans are a step up the ladder from Gods (they created them), and Saergas was the strongest Titan that ever lived.

Ridiculous ? Why is this ridiculous. Ridiculous is you, that cannt see how simpe and true that is.
And yes, You can say Sauron is only immune of what they know of. We do not know if his imunity will stand up against it.

So what you're basically saying is that no one is immune to anything?!? Why bother wearing armor? How do we know WC plate mail will stop LotR weapons? How do we know that LotR chain mail will stop WC weapons? At this point, it's just getting ridiculous. At some point, you need to make logical assumptions rather than demanding proof for everything. Otherwise, I could just claim that the ME forces can't breathe the air of WC3, since there's not proof that they can.

yes. The Valar choose to live on that world. In the Simarillion they sing and made up things. The Middleearth world was put in a universe they created to them. I did not said there is multiple planets, and why would be galaxies, since the sun there is a "mortal human", not a star ? And the moon is the light of a tree ?

Surely you cannot imply that a single planet universe with a sun and a moon is comparable to a universe with countless planets?

oh, my. Tell me the very wonderful things the scepter of mastery did...

Mind Control.

Ok,ok, Archimonde's plans.
So, you imply that Archimonde is limited that he need mortals to open a portal in the world to be there ? So why you ever bother to argue ? Archimonde does not have even power to manifest in the Middle Earth.

Because the creator of the debate never specified where they combat would be held. Maybe it is on Kalimdor. Maybe it's on another 3rd party world. He did not specify that it would be fought on ME. In fact, there's no proof that the Valar could manifest themselves on Kalimdor.

Oh sweet. Seems like Morgoth, which is the most powerful valar, and abble to create the world and beings was banished just by the other Valars. They did not needed the sacrifice of the spirit of world to do so. Archimonde poor dude then.
Plus, Sauron was never defeated by mere mortal powers. Dont be silly about this.

Your arguement could be looked upon in another way; Archimonde is SO powerful that it takes the entire world to banish him.

I suppose he wasn't defeated in the prologue to the Fellowship of the Ring by a human king?

[Silver Paladin]

I know all about the Burning Legion. I really don't think that they would make much of a difference against the LotR armies in the First or Second Ages, but they are the trump card against the Third Age.

I disagree. There is an ENTIRE planet of Eredars. Each of them would easily be on the level of Sauron (as far as combat powress) considering that they are immune to every "normal" weapon, are immune to magic attacks and have stronger combat spells than Sauron. Sauron never approached the "Finger of Death" style insta-kill that Archimonde did.

And the BL's grunt troop is a Inferno, which is basically a mini-Balrog with Magic Immunity. The BL would easily wipe out the Elves/Dwarves/Men of LotR. It would come down to Maia versus the Eredar + Titans. And the Titans created an entire universe, not just a single planet, so I would have to give them the nod.

The problem is, most of LotR depends heavily on Magic in the upper tier of combat. With the Eredar, Infero immune to magic, the Dread Lords resistant to magic, the Felhounds devouring magic, the Warcraft Universe stands an EXCELLENT chance to force the Maia into melee combat (of course, the Maia aren't immune to magic so they would be affected by the BL's spells). That is the key. LotR depends WAAAAAAAY too heavily on magic, and with that stripped away, I strongly belive Warcraft would beat them.

Hmmm.... Perhaps you are correct. Concession granted. Sorry about that. I don't think they are as strong as Sauron, but they are certainly more powerful than I gave them credit for. And powerful enough to turn the tide in numbers.

I think Sauron would be a step above an Eredar (not against a "hero" one like Archimonde tho) as far as sheer power goes. However, Sauron cannot project a large part of his power against them because they are immune to magic. Also, Saurons spells tend to be on the dark manipulative side as opposed to combat. So in a fight, I would say that the Eredar would win, even though Sauron would be more powerful.

[lgot]

No. Archimonde wanted to be Saergas; a MAJOR TITAN. He was the greatest Titan ever, and was elected by the pantheon to keep the peace. Too bad he went insane. In fact, Minor gods would be people like Elune, Goddess of the Moon. The Titans are a step up the ladder from Gods (they created them), and Saergas was the strongest Titan that ever lived.

We actually saw a demigod be slain by a hero in the game. You must stop this nitpicking. Archimonde wanted to be a god, Like Sauron was.

So what you're basically saying is that no one is immune to anything?!? Why bother wearing armor? How do we know WC plate mail will stop LotR weapons? How do we know that LotR chain mail will stop WC weapons? At this point, it's just getting ridiculous. At some point, you need to make logical assumptions rather than demanding proof for everything. Otherwise, I could just claim that the ME forces can't breathe the air of WC3, since there's not proof that they can.

no, I am saying that the imunities of WCIII are relative to their level of production and progress. That does not means it will work with LoTR since they are different.
Because Armor stop the same stuff in both world. But a normal armor does not stop some magical stuff. The imunity that armor gave was break by a new upcoming rule. If you go to assumptions, we just stop and think, The Valars singing created a world. If they really scream like a heavy metal band they would destroy the universe. Bring some basis. That is all.

Surely you cannot imply that a single planet universe with a sun and a moon is comparable to a universe with countless planets?

Surely they both have power to create universes. Out of nowhere. You compare quantity of same stuff as better ?

Mind Control.

Which is less the one ring can do.

Because the creator of the debate never specified where they combat would be held. Maybe it is on Kalimdor. Maybe it's on another 3rd party world. He did not specify that it would be fought on ME. In fact, there's no proof that the Valar could manifest themselves on Kalimdor.

Yeah, the one thing we have is that Archimonde have such limitation. Not Valars.
But even so, I do believe that usually magic is related to one place, so I think In their universe, Valars are not to be beaten. And this is not true in other universes.

Your arguement could be looked upon in another way; Archimonde is SO powerful that it takes the entire world to banish him.

I suppose he wasn't defeated in the prologue to the Fellowship of the Ring by a human king?

Just you forgot that Morgoth was already a great God, the second most powerful being of the universe, which was what Archimonde wanted to be. If they can defeat Morgoth, Archimonde will fail.
The prologue is too short. Sauron had a long battle with many, among the 2 finest Elf lords and the best human (which is a numenor, better than humans) fighter ever. After a long time the elfs could hold him, so Ilsudur hit him and took his finger off. The pain of getting apart of the one ring was so much that they could destroy his body but not him. Elrond, Ilsudur are too much to be called normal mortals. Actually Elrond have magical powers much superior to anything that any elf, even Canarius (I dunno, forgive me, his name is somehow funny and make me think in a bird, so i may have been spelling his name wrongly) showed off.

[Silver Paladin]

We actually saw a demigod be slain by a hero in the game. You must stop this nitpicking. Archimonde wanted to be a god, Like Sauron was.

There are different strengths of gods. I doubt you can compare the power of Elune (Goddess of the Moon) to a Titan. And the hero was consumed by the blood of Mannoroth, one of the leaders of the Burning Legion. It's hardly a "normal" Orc.

no, I am saying that the imunities of WCIII are relative to their level of production and progress. That does not means it will work with LoTR since they are different.
Because Armor stop the same stuff in both world. But a normal armor does not stop some magical stuff. The imunity that armor gave was break by a new upcoming rule. If you go to assumptions, we just stop and think, The Valars singing created a world. If they really scream like a heavy metal band they would destroy the universe. Bring some basis. That is all.

But Warcraft III is not restricted to just Kalimdor. Remember the Burning Legion has conquered countless worlds. Saergas himself has conquered the Eredar and the Dread Lords. It's not just Kalimdor magic or armor that they are immune to. It's the magic/armor of countless number of planets in the universe.

Surely they both have power to create universes. Out of nowhere. You compare quantity of same stuff as better ?

Yes. Magnitude is the next step of comparison when all else is equal. If Barry Bonds and I can both hit baseballs. But he hits baseballs MUCH more frequently than I can hope to do. That makes him a better player because the magnitude of his expressed skill is greater than mine.

Yeah, the one thing we have is that Archimonde have such limitation. Not Valars.
But even so, I do believe that usually magic is related to one place, so I think In their universe, Valars are not to be beaten. And this is not true in other universes.

So you beleive in WC, the BL would win, and in ME, LotR would win?

How about a neutral 3rd party location (say, Faerun)?

Just you forgot that Morgoth was already a great God, the second most powerful being of the universe, which was what Archimonde wanted to be. If they can defeat Morgoth, Archimonde will fail.
The prologue is too short. Sauron had a long battle with many, among the 2 finest Elf lords and the best human (which is a numenor, better than humans) fighter ever. After a long time the elfs could hold him, so Ilsudur hit him and took his finger off. The pain of getting apart of the one ring was so much that they could destroy his body but not him. Elrond, Ilsudur are too much to be called normal mortals. Actually Elrond have magical powers much superior to anything that any elf, even Canarius (I dunno, forgive me, his name is somehow funny and make me think in a bird, so i may have been spelling his name wrongly) showed off.

Morgoth may have been the 2nd strongest being in the LotR Universe, but like you said, their universe is much more compact than the WC Universe.

For example, Elune (or whatever the main god in Warcraft is; they don't really say it) may be considered the most powerful being in Kalimdor. However, that's just 1 planet.

She's absolutely nothing compared to the power of the Titans who are considered the most powerful beings in the Universe. Not just a single planet, not just a single star system, but the strongest being out of every single out of the countless star systems out there.

IF the Burning Legion's Magic Immunity stands, then Middle Earth will go down. I don't believe that's really debatable, because in the upper tiers of Middle Earth, combat is heavily magic intensive. If you strip that away their magic abilities, then they will lose. Without Magic Immunity, the fight would be MUCH more bloodier, but you have to remember that there are an entire Pathenon of Titans, and entire planet of Eredars, etc. I think in the end, sheer numbers will beat ME, because ME isn't just facing similiar numbers, but they're outnumbered by entire planets full of creatures.

Despite the fact that Sauron did not die, he was defeated right? You do not need to die to be defeated. And he was killed by a (unnaturally skilled) human being. That was all that I'm saying. I was in no way implying that Frank the McDonald's worker could take out Sauron.

That's what it really breaks down to. If the Burning Legion's Magic Immunity stands...LotR will say hi to their new masters.

[lgot]

There are different strengths of gods. I doubt you can compare the power of Elune (Goddess of the Moon) to a Titan. And the hero was consumed by the blood of Mannoroth, one of the leaders of the Burning Legion. It's hardly a "normal" Orc.

It is different, but You noticed that Mannoroth was killed just by this same hero ? As well, the blood taint was cured by Jeanna, as mortal mage ?
THose godlike powers or Mannoroth wasnt that big.

Code: Select all

But Warcraft III is not restricted to just Kalimdor. Remember the Burning Legion has conquered countless worlds. Saergas himself has conquered the Eredar and the Dread Lords. It's not just Kalimdor magic or armor that they are immune to. It's the magic/armor of countless number of planets in the universe. 

No. One they are imune to Kalimor magic (and not to weapons for example) because we do not know they are actually imune to the magic of the other worlds they destroyed.

Yes. Magnitude is the next step of comparison when all else is equal. If Barry Bonds and I can both hit baseballs. But he hits baseballs MUCH more frequently than I can hope to do. That makes him a better player because the magnitude of his expressed skill is greater than mine.

Both created a Universe. The Valars choose to create one world only and when they wanted to create another dimension. Its not the same thing, as we do not know if it was hard to the Titans to do their universe and if they did that at once or just slowly.
And you confund. The Valars story tell about One planet where they lived. Nohwere its said their universe is that small or limited.

So you beleive in WC, the BL would win, and in ME, LotR would win?

How about a neutral 3rd party location (say, Faerun)?

Well, I think yes, because even , they are going to be in their universe and their rules are going to be stronger there. Not to say the advantage of having to defend a know territory.
I would say Faerun beings would raize and smash both side well did ^^
But let say, I think will be very even and anyside could won.

Morgoth may have been the 2nd strongest being in the LotR Universe, but like you said, their universe is much more compact than the WC Universe.

For example, Elune (or whatever the main god in Warcraft is; they don't really say it) may be considered the most powerful being in Kalimdor. However, that's just 1 planet.

Morgoth is exactly example of Great God and he was defeated. Archimonde did not achived such state yet, so would be easier to deal with such thing.
Morgoth is not a god of one world, but from the Universe. Any place he would be in the universe he would be such being.

IF the Burning Legion's Magic Immunity stands, then Middle Earth will go down. I don't believe that's really debatable, because in the upper tiers of Middle Earth, combat is heavily magic intensive. If you strip that away their magic abilities, then they will lose. Without Magic Immunity, the fight would be MUCH more bloodier, but you have to remember that there are an entire Pathenon of Titans, and entire planet of Eredars, etc. I think in the end, sheer numbers will beat ME, because ME isn't just facing similiar numbers, but they're outnumbered by entire planets full of creatures.

You do not really understand. ME is very magical in the nature, but very few of the warriors do that. Mostly elves, humans, dwarves just fight.
And the elves of ME are superior to those in WC. They can fight without magic, after all there is beings in the ME with heavy immunities as well. What if the ME imunity stand up ? No one of the Valars can be killed by normal means as well.

Despite the fact that Sauron did not die, he was defeated right? You do not need to die to be defeated. And he was killed by a (unnaturally skilled) human being. That was all that I'm saying. I was in no way implying that Frank the McDonald's worker could take out Sauron.

You said he was defeated by "mere mortal powers". This is not true. Ilsedur is not mere and he was helped for example by Elrond, which is not mortal and much less "Mere".

That's what it really breaks down to. If the Burning Legion's Magic Immunity stands...LotR will say hi to their new masters.

And If ME immunity or for example, their skill to come out with "arrows that can kill that being that otherwise would be invulnerable" ME stands. That is why i say in their universe both have a huge advantage.

[Silver Paladin]

It is different, but You noticed that Mannoroth was killed just by this same hero ? As well, the blood taint was cured by Jeanna, as mortal mage ?
THose godlike powers or Mannoroth wasnt that big.

No, but to kill Mannoroth, you needed to be infused by his blood curse. Note that Thrall didn't do anything to Mannoroth, even with a weapon enchanted by the spirit of the Earth, yet Hellscream did so without any help. It's simply his weakness. Curing the blood curse wasn't very hard, but that in no way implies that the powers were weak.

No. One they are imune to Kalimor magic (and not to weapons for example) because we do not know they are actually imune to the magic of the other worlds they destroyed.

They are also immune to Kalimdor weapons as well, since the Eredar and the Pit Fiends have Divine Armor a la Cenarius. We know for a fact that the Warcraft III magic immunity extends to the magic of the Eredar, Dread Lord, Inferno, Pit Lord, Doom Guard, Felhound and the races of Kalimdor. We can prove this because none of those races can cast spells on a Magic Immune creature, even though they come from different planets.

You do not really understand. ME is very magical in the nature, but very few of the warriors do that. Mostly elves, humans, dwarves just fight.
And the elves of ME are superior to those in WC. They can fight without magic, after all there is beings in the ME with heavy immunities as well. What if the ME imunity stand up ? No one of the Valars can be killed by normal means as well.

And If ME immunity or for example, their skill to come out with "arrows that can kill that being that otherwise would be invulnerable" ME stands. That is why i say in their universe both have a huge advantage.

My point is that the entire upper echelons of ME's combat is highly magical. I do not believe the lower tier races (ie. Elves, Humans, Dwarves) can pose a threat to an Eredar for example. The mere fact that they can Finger of Death and kill them is abusive enough (and considering there's an entire Eredar planet, it would not be too much of a stretch to imagine that the Eredars can FoD every non-godlike being in ME. The same goes with the Valar. Note that I never argued with the "normal" races in WC3, because the Valar will EASILY wipe them out without so much a sweat. So the fight really breaks down to:

ME Top Tier vs. WC3 Top Tier. In this case, it would be the Valar + Maia versus the Eredar, Titans, Infernos and Dread Lord. No other faction really matters as they'll be dead in mere seconds after the conflict breaks out.

The Valar and Maia are almost always described as being who use magic to deal with problems. Really, the only Uber-being in ME that is shown to use weapons in any great extent would be Sauron. There are a few descriptions about Gandalf wielding a blade as well, but those are far limited compared to those describing him wielding a staff in his hand and a spell at his lips.

And I think the biggest balance tilter for WC3 is the sheer number of uber-beings that WC3 can bring in. I would assume that the amount of Titans and Valars are roughly the same. Meanwhile the Eredars are described as having an entire planet to themselves (as with the Dread Lords). Even if both sides immunities kicked in, WC3 would still end up owning the world simply because there's more WC3 units there than LotR units. Victory by assimilation (in Civilization 3 terms).

Of course, this would apply only on a battleground where both sides immunities/abilities/etc. remained intact (so most probably a 3rd party battle ground).

[lgot]

[/quote]No, but to kill Mannoroth, you needed to be infused by his blood curse. Note that Thrall didn't do anything to Mannoroth, even with a weapon enchanted by the spirit of the Earth, yet Hellscream did so without any help. It's simply his weakness. Curing the blood curse wasn't very hard, but that in no way implies that the powers were weak.

I am not saying this. Mannoroth could be killed and his powers dispeled by mortals. Which shows that mortals can face him. Hows his weakness, yes. His limitations, yes. That is the point.

They are also immune to Kalimdor weapons as well, since the Eredar and the Pit Fiends have Divine Armor a la Cenarius. We know for a fact that the Warcraft III magic immunity extends to the magic of the Eredar, Dread Lord, Inferno, Pit Lord, Doom Guard, Felhound and the races of Kalimdor. We can prove this because none of those races can cast spells on a Magic Immune creature, even though they come from different planets.

You didnt understood me. I meant that only show all of them are immune only to the magic coming from Kalimor, since its the only magic we seen them to resist.
Plus you notice the weapons what I have been saying about immunity. Those 2 and Cenarius are immune to weapons until Mannoroth, a outside power, showed a way to do otherwise. Mannoroth is just a minor leader of Burning Legion, and found a way to break this imunity. Why isnt possible to do otherwise in the ME universe ? It is.

My point is that the entire upper echelons of ME's combat is highly magical. I do not believe the lower tier races (ie. Elves, Humans, Dwarves) can pose a threat to an Eredar for example. The mere fact that they can Finger of Death and kill them is abusive enough (and considering there's an entire Eredar planet, it would not be too much of a stretch to imagine that the Eredars can FoD every non-godlike being in ME. The same goes with the Valar. Note that I never argued with the "normal" races in WC3, because the Valar will EASILY wipe them out without so much a sweat. So the fight really breaks down to:

Finger of Death would be pointless. Elves do not die in ME. They return to where the Valars live. So there would be always the elves there to deal. The valars could bring dead back before, so they just have a similar power to counter such strategy.

The Valar and Maia are almost always described as being who use magic to deal with problems. Really, the only Uber-being in ME that is shown to use weapons in any great extent would be Sauron. There are a few descriptions about Gandalf wielding a blade as well, but those are far limited compared to those describing him wielding a staff in his hand and a spell at his lips.

Not really. Morgoth for example over used sneaky and manipulation, not magic. In LoTR only, we do not see Sauron fighting, because Sauron avoid this. His power are basically of the manipulation and mind tricks. Galladriel is other one, uber-power that use her charisma and presence to achive what she wants. Tulska is a valar that for example that would use more weapons than anything.
They all use weapons, because of course, it wasnt AD&D

And I think the biggest balance tilter for WC3 is the sheer number of uber-beings that WC3 can bring in. I would assume that the amount of Titans and Valars are roughly the same. Meanwhile the Eredars are described as having an entire planet to themselves (as with the Dread Lords). Even if both sides immunities kicked in, WC3 would still end up owning the world simply because there's more WC3 units there than LotR units. Victory by assimilation (in Civilization 3 terms).

Archimonde destroyed many worlds. But We do not see him using that great number of extra troops, did we ? The orcs, Elves and humans are able to resist his troop and in the end Archimonde was the problem. Seems like he needed only the energy of the worlds, so Archimonde would not bring that many troops.
And you seem to highly understimate the vallue of "Normal" elfs and the other heroes. Some of them, achived the level of power of Maias, so they are much more powerful elite troup and would affect this balance.

[Silver Paladin]

Mannoroth being killed by a mortal, similar to how Sauron got defeated by one?

No, because Finger of Death is not a spell that comes from Kalimdor. It comes from the Eredar (and their planet). No Kalimdor unit has the spell. Same with Rain of Chaos, Dark Summoning, etc. At the same time, the Dread Lords all come from the Netherizim planet, so Sleep, Vampiric Aura, Carrion Swarm and Summon Inferno are not Kalimdor spells either. So it's not just Kalimdor's spells.

I'm not saying that it's impossible. But ME would need to figure out that the weakness. You can't assume that they'll somehow just "know" their weak point. The same thing happens vice versa. I cannot just assume that WC3 will discover LotRs weaknesses.

And if you look at Archimonde; you need to hit him with the equivilant of a chaos imbued catapult every 5 seconds or he will heal back to full life. So not only is it a matter of hitting him with the right weapon, but you also need to clobber him with LOTS of big weapons as well.

??? Resurrection does not "stop" Finger of Death. A unit that has been Fingered of Death can be Ressurrected (either by the Paladin ability, or the Scroll of Ressurection) or animated (Death Knight's Raise Dead of a Scoll of Animate Dead). And the Valar's ability to bring back dead is countered by the fact that WC3 can bring back the dead just as well.

I have no problem admitting that Sauron is probably stronger than an Eredar powerwise. However, the entirety of the Eredar's power is directed towards combat and destruction, while Saurons powers lie in subterfuge and manipulations. In a straight up fight, Sauron would lose, simply because his skills aren't as concentrated in the combat field as an Eredars is. Navy SEAL Team 6 soldiers are probably an excellent shots, but compared to a specialist in the field (say an Army Sniper), he's outclassed. The SEAL is probably better in most situations, but the Sniper wins in that specific instance. Same with Sauron vs. Eredar.

In a normal conquest, Archimonde prefers to scheme with the races he oppressess (and he's rather successfull, with the glaring exception of Kalimdor). However, I'm interpreting this question as a "All of Warcraft vs. All of LotR" deal. No holds barred, balls to the walls.

[lgot]

Mannoroth being killed by a mortal, similar to how Sauron got defeated by one?

of course, Being killed like Mannoroth was is very different as being defeated by not only a mortal. But do you see the similarities in both places ? How is everything able to be relative there ?

No, because Finger of Death is not a spell that comes from Kalimdor. It comes from the Eredar (and their planet). No Kalimdor unit has the spell. Same with Rain of Chaos, Dark Summoning, etc. At the same time, the Dread Lords all come from the Netherizim planet, so Sleep, Vampiric Aura, Carrion Swarm and Summon Inferno are not Kalimdor spells either. So it's not just Kalimdor's spells.

ok, that would change in what of the fact they are actually imune to only those spells, which does not mean everything ? Some of the unities, summonmed are as well imunne to magic, but as summoned they are affected by the Wand of Negation. They are immune to all spells but this one, which is another example how this super immunity is actually limited by the magic that tryied to break it.

I'm not saying that it's impossible. But ME would need to figure out that the weakness. You can't assume that they'll somehow just "know" their weak point. The same thing happens vice versa. I cannot just assume that WC3 will discover LotRs weaknesses.

What ? Those same dudes who sent Gandalf with the other mages to prepare to what would happen centuries after that in LoTR books ? Would be that impossible to find out ? After all, The ME people found out about this, rather quick.

And if you look at Archimonde; you need to hit him with the equivilant of a chaos imbued catapult every 5 seconds or he will heal back to full life. So not only is it a matter of hitting him with the right weapon, but you also need to clobber him with LOTS of big weapons as well.

This is a ME limitation to hit Archimonde. The dragons of ME for example or some of the beast of Morgoth, or even Morgoth and Sauron are for example Chaos beings. Nothing can assure that a breath of such dragons would not have the same effect over archimonde. Actually, a breath of dragon of ME is very well capable of killing in one hit Archimonde, since the damage they do is much much superior to a chaos catapult.

??? Resurrection does not "stop" Finger of Death. A unit that has been Fingered of Death can be Ressurrected (either by the Paladin ability, or the Scroll of Ressurection) or animated (Death Knight's Raise Dead of a Scoll of Animate Dead). And the Valar's ability to bring back dead is countered by the fact that WC3 can bring back the dead just as well.

I said counter not stop. Everytime a finger of death kill a handful, a handful would return. Much faster as would happen in the WC III game as a paladin is limited close to a valar.

I have no problem admitting that Sauron is probably stronger than an Eredar powerwise. However, the entirety of the Eredar's power is directed towards combat and destruction, while Saurons powers lie in subterfuge and manipulations. In a straight up fight, Sauron would lose, simply because his skills aren't as concentrated in the combat field as an Eredars is.

Oh, yes. Sauron is just a maia. Not as skilled as other Valars in combat and even some elfs. But then, you forget about Sauron's strength, which would quickly avoid the fight and manipulate the attackers until he saurou could control it.

In a normal conquest, Archimonde prefers to scheme with the races he oppressess (and he's rather successfull, with the glaring exception of Kalimdor). However, I'm interpreting this question as a "All of Warcraft vs. All of LotR" deal. No holds barred, balls to the walls.

Which are Morgoth and Sauron's field. There they would wash the floor with Archimonde, not to say turn their own troops against him or something like this, that they are able to. Morgoth is sly enough to make Archimonde even follow him. Of course, we cannt forget that Valars are the great god, but in ME there is one above all of them, a supreme god who created the Valars. He is not participative as the Valars are in the ME, but he is there.

[Shadow WarChief]

I would just like to point on some things here which some people seem to be missing.

There are 3 types of WarCraft Magic and 2 types of LOTR Magic

WC Magic:

Druidry- The stuff the night Elves use. Power over nature and only that.

Shamanism - Similar to druidry, but actually uses mystical energy

Magic - What the burning Legion and High elves use.


you'll notice that the difference between the magics is noticeable IN GAME as well as in the game manual

you can use a Shaman's purge (Shaman magic) against an inferno but not a Dread Lords's Carrion Swarm (Magic Magic)


Lotr Magic:

Elf Magic
Dark Lord Magic



I know quote from The Fellowship of the Ring:

"And you?" Galadriel said, turning to Sam. "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe, though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say you wanted to see Elf-Magic?"

Clearly there is a difference.

I'll just leave with that.

[Master of Ossus]

The elves don't really understand the word, "magic," because everything around them is constructed or modified magically by some means. To them it is just the normal way of things, but for the Hobbits and Aragorn and Boromir it is clearly something special. Look at how much trouble they had asking one of the elves about the elven cloaks they were given in Lothlorien.

[Shrykull]

"the part that I am most confused about is the makeup of the aerial forces of the LOTR and warcraft side, the warcraft side dragons don't seem very powerful even without using in-game"

What do you mean? They are very powerful, ever try in warcraft 2 to send 8 dragons bloodlusted and hasted against a castle, they can level it in seconds.
Why have you all left out all the spells available to either side, such as bloodlust for the warcraft side, which pretty much lets them swat aside mounted cavalry like how Sauron swatted away those people at the beginning of FOTR. And also unholy armor and the death knights. It seems unfair to say that nothing LOTR has can damage an unholy armored foe, but in warcraft 2 the unit while under it's effect does not take any damage at all, it can only be polymorphed or slowed. And what about the demolition teams of both sides that can take out buildings easily with one or 2 suicide bomber type attacks.

[Silver Paladin]

ok, that would change in what of the fact they are actually imune to only those spells, which does not mean everything ? Some of the unities, summonmed are as well imunne to magic, but as summoned they are affected by the Wand of Negation. They are immune to all spells but this one, which is another example how this super immunity is actually limited by the magic that tryied to break it.

Out of XXX spells in Warcraft, exactly 2 will affect Magic Immune creatures (Wand of Negation and Scroll of Town Portal + Auras, but Aura's really aren't magic per say). And if you'll notice, both spell are:
1) Area Effect
2) Have Positive benefits

Other spells that only have one or the other (Rain of Fire, Thunderclap, for Area Effect), (Purge, Unholy Frenzy, Lighting Shield for Positive benefits) cannot target magic immune creatures. Does ME have a "kinda-good, but kinda-bad area effect" spell?

What ? Those same dudes who sent Gandalf with the other mages to prepare to what would happen centuries after that in LoTR books ? Would be that impossible to find out ? After all, The ME people found out about this, rather quick.

At the same time, Warcraft has Medivh, who not only sees the future, past and present, but is also apparently immortal. Would you concede that Warcraft could just as easily find out ME's weak spot?

This is a ME limitation to hit Archimonde. The dragons of ME for example or some of the beast of Morgoth, or even Morgoth and Sauron are for example Chaos beings. Nothing can assure that a breath of such dragons would not have the same effect over archimonde. Actually, a breath of dragon of ME is very well capable of killing in one hit Archimonde, since the damage they do is much much superior to a chaos catapult.

No. One catapult does not kill Archimonde. One catapult will do enough damage to him such that he will not regen faster than he takes damage. (Ie. Cat does 92 damage in 5 seconds. Archimonde heals ~90 damage in 5 seconds. Catapult will neutralize Achimonde's Healing Factor).

I said counter not stop. Everytime a finger of death kill a handful, a handful would return. Much faster as would happen in the WC III game as a paladin is limited close to a valar.

But there are certainly more Paladins + Death Knights + Scrolls than Valars.

Oh, yes. Sauron is just a maia. Not as skilled as other Valars in combat and even some elfs. But then, you forget about Sauron's strength, which would quickly avoid the fight and manipulate the attackers until he saurou could control it.

How do you avoid combat with something that's immune to pretty much all of your cannonfodder, and immune to your spells? Sneaking around and manipulating is great and all, but it doesn't work all the time. Otherwise, why even have an army? We can just get a bunch of politicians to maneuver our enemies around.

Which are Morgoth and Sauron's field. There they would wash the floor with Archimonde, not to say turn their own troops against him or something like this, that they are able to. Morgoth is sly enough to make Archimonde even follow him. Of course, we cannt forget that Valars are the great god, but in ME there is one above all of them, a supreme god who created the Valars. He is not participative as the Valars are in the ME, but he is there.

How would Morgoth + Sauron wipe out an entire planet full of Eredars? How would they mind control the entire planet (considering that Eredars are immune to Mind Control). Why would Morgoth get Archimonde to follow him? Archimonde has everything Morgoth has, and MORE. He has grounded countless planets under his heel.

Like I said, the Eredar are not the Supreme Beings either. You have the Gods (a la Elune), the Guardians (a la Medivh) and the Titans (a la Saergas).

[Silver Paladin]

I think the point here that I want to make is that while ME may seem to be stronger, they are heavily (and I mean DISGUSTINGLY) outnumbered. They have no less 7 planets of troops (Kalimdor, Eredar, Dread Lord, Pit Lord, Felhound, Draenor, Inferno, and possibly more, but you don't really see too much of the BL), including an entire planet of troops which are near Maia level (Eredar), another entire planet of troops which are easily comprable to the strongest and best of the mortal ME troops (Dread Lords), and another planet of troops which will completely own the "normal" units of ME (Infernos).

Remember, even the Jedis in Attack of the Clones fell to inferior, but superior numbers of attack droids. Even the US fell back to the Pusan Perimeter after the massive Chinese counterattack in the Korean War. Even the Germans fell to the mammoth Russia army.

[Shrykull]

Remember, even the Jedis in Attack of the Clones fell to inferior, but superior numbers of attack droids. Even the US fell back to the Pusan Perimeter after the massive Chinese counterattack in the Korean War. Even the Germans fell to the mammoth Russia army.

In one battle during Roman times, Caesar defeated an army five times his size, of course he was a military genius

[Sea Skimmer]

Remember, even the Jedis in Attack of the Clones fell to inferior, but superior numbers of attack droids. Even the US fell back to the Pusan Perimeter after the massive Chinese counterattack in the Korean War. Even the Germans fell to the mammoth Russia army.

In one battle during Roman times, Caesar defeated an army five times his size, of course he was a military genius

Get your facts right. Pusan was the result of the initial Korean invasion.
The Chinese attack came months later, and only got about 35 miles south of Seoul, before being pushed back by a UN counter attack to the current boarder.

[Silver Paladin]

Get your facts right. Pusan was the result of the initial Korean invasion.
The Chinese attack came months later, and only got about 35 miles south of Seoul, before being pushed back by a UN counter attack to the current boarder.

No. I am right

http://korea50.army.mil/history/factsheets/pusan.html

Look at the first picture. The American + South Koreans were pushed down to the Pusan River, where they made a stand. It is the VERY southeastern corner of Korea. The Americans did counterattack later, but it does illustrate my point that Quantity itself is a Quality.

[Silver Paladin]

In one battle during Roman times, Caesar defeated an army five times his size, of course he was a military genius

But there are more examples to the contrary. Few would argue against the fact that Robert E. Lee was the far superior general to Grant. However, Grant used his massive forces to ground away at the Confederates until Lee lost. Lee acquitted himself well, and at one point at the Battle of Cold Harbor, the Confederates killed 1,000 Union troops in the span of 7 minutes. However, for all of Lee's tactical and strategic brilliance, he was ground down by an army that at times outnumbered him 4 to 1.

Napoleon was one of the greatest military minds to date. Yet, he fell at Waterloo, because he went up against a combined 119,300 troops versus his own 72,000 troops.

Simply put, throughout history, numbers have oftentimes proved to be more important than the quality of the troops.

[Master of Ossus]

I think you are referring to the Battles in Gall. Ceasar's forces had several advantages during that campaign.

1. They were FAR better trained than their enemies.
2. They were FAR better equipped than their enemies.
3. They were lead by Caesar. That was a huge advantage.
4. They were very well motivated. Many of the Gallish forces actually wanted the Romans to win so they could become Roman citizens. While some of them marched with the others into combat, they tended to run off as soon as they became endangered.

Now, that does not mean that an army can always defeat an enemy with superior numbers, nor does it mean that an army with superior numbers will always win. Instead, the differences between a numerical and a qualitative superiority are very interesting to study because they can both be very large advantages, when used properly.

[Sea Skimmer]

Get your facts right. Pusan was the result of the initial Korean invasion.
The Chinese attack came months later, and only got about 35 miles south of Seoul, before being pushed back by a UN counter attack to the current boarder.

No. I am right

http://korea50.army.mil/history/factsheets/pusan.html

Look at the first picture. The American + South Koreans were pushed down to the Pusan River, where they made a stand. It is the VERY southeastern corner of Korea. The Americans did counterattack later, but it does illustrate my point that Quantity itself is a Quality.

My point was that your incorrect that Chinese forces drove the UN into the Pusan perimeter, this link proves more completely correct.

See any mention of Chinese forces on that page???? There aren’t any, which is because none were present. The isolation of American and ROK troops in the Pusan perimeter was the result of the initial North Korean attack, NOT the Chinese.

The counter attack, which broke the perimeter and took American troops to the Yalu, was launched dawn 15th September 1950 from Pusan in combination with a landing at Inchon. The PRC entered the war on the night of the 26th of October 1950 with an attack across the Yalu River.

The furthest penetration by Chinese forces was to the upper reaches of the Naktong River, over 120 miles from Pusan. On the 25th of January 1951 UN forces counter attacked on all fronts, pushing the Chinese forces back to what's effectively the current DMZ. After the 22d of April 1951 the line had few note worthy changes, and even fewer perimeter ones.

As for Chinese numerical strength, they were actually inferior in numbers in the field by almost the entire war, 450,000 against the UN's 580,000 men in country. They only stayed afloat by constantly infusing more troops, who were promptly slaughtered.

They took 25 causalities to the UN's 1 and had a far higher percentage of dead.

Quantity does have a quality of its own, but firepower is far preferable, and with modern weapons, the quantity needed to overwhelm a power with a technological advantage is rapidly spiraling upward.

Next time, read what you link so you don’t prove the other side correct…

[Silver Paladin]

Whoops, sorry, read it wrong. I thought your initial statement was that the South Koreans never got pushed to the Pusan. That's what I was defending against.

Regardless, we're talking about combat in a medieval state. Besides the Dwarves on the side of WC3 that has single shot blunderblusses, Steam Tanks and Mortars, WC3 versus ME is heavily characterized by Bows, Swords, Shields and Magic.

The fact that ME is outnumbered by 6 entire planets of similar combat skill plus the fact that they're not overwhelmingly overpowered compared tot he W3 forces will probably mean that they'll lose.

[lgot]

Out of XXX spells in Warcraft, exactly 2 will affect Magic Immune creatures (Wand of Negation and Scroll of Town Portal + Auras, but Aura's really aren't magic per say). And if you'll notice, both spell are:
1) Area Effect
2) Have Positive benefits

This is going silly and repetitive. The Wand of Negation is just a dispel magic. And it does affect summoned imune creatures because the spell cause damage in area to summoned creatures. That is all. Its effect in immune beings are the same of old and good firebal.
Btw, Positive Benefits ? lets get a D&D spell to make it easy, Blade Barrier for example. To me that is a great positive benefits, since its damage the coming attackers. I understand you mean passive/defensive spells as the positive benefits...
But that does not change my point: Do you see that they are immune to all spells but that one ? Their imunity is relative to what they have faced until now.

Other spells that only have one or the other (Rain of Fire, Thunderclap, for Area Effect), (Purge, Unholy Frenzy, Lighting Shield for Positive benefits) cannot target magic immune creatures. Does ME have a "kinda-good, but kinda-bad area effect" spell?

Of course they have dispel magic
They do have, they can look fearful enough to dont be faced, charming enough to be obeyed, etc. Which affect all seeing them (area) and is helpfull to them (your positive benefits). But that is little, I repeat, nothing can show that all the immunities will stand up against ME spells.

[/code]At the same time, Warcraft has Medivh, who not only sees the future, past and present, but is also apparently immortal. Would you concede that Warcraft could just as easily find out ME's weak spot?

I do not remember ever saying otherwise.

No. One catapult does not kill Archimonde. One catapult will do enough damage to him such that he will not regen faster than he takes damage. (Ie. Cat does 92 damage in 5 seconds. Archimonde heals ~90 damage in 5 seconds. Catapult will neutralize Achimonde's Healing Factor).

I have never said that one catapult kill him. I said that a dragon breath may be enough to kill him since it does a lot of more damage than the catapult. Does not matter how fast you heal after you fall dead.

But there are certainly more Paladins + Death Knights + Scrolls than Valars.

Scrolls ? Well, Death Knights bring bodies back, not people back to life. And Paladins are limited by their manas, which Valars are not.

How do you avoid combat with something that's immune to pretty much all of your cannonfodder, and immune to your spells? Sneaking around and manipulating is great and all, but it doesn't work all the time. Otherwise, why even have an army? We can just get a bunch of politicians to maneuver our enemies around.

you mean, Sauron does not have the trickery needed when the Lich who commaned Arthas had ?

How would Morgoth + Sauron wipe out an entire planet full of Eredars? How would they mind control the entire planet (considering that Eredars are immune to Mind Control). Why would Morgoth get Archimonde to follow him? Archimonde has everything Morgoth has, and MORE. He has grounded countless planets under his heel.

This is silly. Archimonde plans to turn in a God, Which Morgoth already is. How do he mave everything Morgoth had and More ? Morgoth is something a thousand times more powerful and troublesome than Sauron ever was. he is the responsable for everything evil that ever happened in ME. Archimonde in his level of power would be way beneath Morgoth, perhaps planning to succed him, but never like him.
And Archimonde does not have countless planets under his heel...He destroy those planets to feed and became the god he want to be. Have you noticed what is the problem of the Outnumbered ?
If he had such a vast army, why his troops didnt outnumber the Combined Human-orc-elf in just one island ? He never uses such numbers, we see always more elfs, orcs. He even had to participate there in first place. You assume he , by the destruction of several planets, he use those planets and all the population there as a army, when He does not that in all the game...

I think the point here that I want to make is that while ME may seem to be stronger, they are heavily (and I mean DISGUSTINGLY) outnumbered. They have no less 7 planets of troops (Kalimdor, Eredar, Dread Lord, Pit Lord, Felhound, Draenor, Inferno, and possibly more, but you don't really see too much of the BL), including an entire planet of troops which are near Maia level (Eredar), another entire planet of troops which are easily comprable to the strongest and best of the mortal ME troops (Dread Lords), and another planet of troops which will completely own the "normal" units of ME (Infernos).

I like that we agree that ME is overpowerful than WC.
But you seem to really think there is 7 planets of troops when we only see a limited number of a special troops of each planet.
No power in the game showed, but Archimonde which have his immunity as main power, can compare to the "Normal" elfs in ME (much less in the first age as you suggested). The elfs then are able to face the Maiars and win. They are not close to normal.

[Master of Ossus]

Igot, while I primarily agree with all of your points I must point out to you that you were SLIGHTLY mistaken on one of them. Morgoth is vastly more powerful than Sauron is, however, Sauron is more dangerous. Morgoth was possessed of almost limitless physical strength, and had the capability for enormous destruction. However, Sauron is far smarter and infinitely more patient than Morgoth. Sauron also has powers of deception over the beings of ME, and so is probably even more dangerous at full strength (with the Ring of Power) than Morgoth was.

[lgot]

No way...
Morgoth is the one responsable for Humans and Elfs mistrust each other, to make the group of elfs go apart and left the Valar's lands to ME lands (where they still) and to their banishment, he destroyed the light of the world (the tree) making all the world go in darkness for years, created a hundred of creatures - the "spider" almost kill frodo and live beneath Sauron's castle is just spawn of what he created (not to say that he made all that area be cursed and evil).
He is the one who song in different tone and made the creation happens in a different way, he is the one that corrupted (and therefore the origin of all evil) the maias (Among those Sauron and Balrogs) and a few humans and elfs (he was able to to deceive the Valars for example).
In all things, He is the one that corrupted Sauron and was made him be what he was. All that Sauron did was a result of Morgoth Influence, that is why I say he was much more dangerouns and his doings had much more impact in ME than Sauron's. Sauron got the army, the castle, all that already made up by Morgoth.
Master Ossus, Sauron is pretty much dangerous as well, but Morgoth is the origem of all evil and in a more powerful time of ME. You know very well that he is said to be the most powerful Valar ever...Those are my reasons.