Vulcan Kohlinaru as Jedi AND Sith

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2003-04-05 03:21am

Suppose a Vulcan who underwent the Kohlinar...the purging of emotion , leaving only pure logic...decided to study the ways of the Jedi.

Along the way, he hears about the Sith. Concluding this is the other side of the equasion, so to speak, he attempts to learn of this way too.

Since he has no anger, fear, or hate, there is no real way for him to fall to the Dark Side.

Would he still be dissuaded from such discoveries by the Jedi Council?

KhyronTheBackstabber · Post by **KhyronTheBackstabber** » 2003-04-05 03:39am

In order to use the dark side, you must give in to your anger and hate, for that is where the dark side comes from, and draws it's power. So I would think that the Vulcan would be unable to tap into the dark side, or if he managed to tap in, he, like anyone else, would be consumed by it.

brothersinarm · Post by **brothersinarm** » 2003-04-05 03:52pm

I would agree with KhyronTheBackstabber. Vulcans aren't invulnerable to emotions. On the Enterprise series T'Pol showed quite a few emotions especially anger. (Can't remember the episode but T'pol was hunting a fugitive and had her emotions erased by some vulcan ritual)

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-04-05 03:56pm

I think you're avoiding the part about the Kohlinar. It depends on what exactly it does and how effective it is.

Yes, Vulcans have emotions. But what does the Kohlinar actually do when it "purges" them.

brothersinarm · Post by **brothersinarm** » 2003-04-06 01:46am

isn't more "repression" than "purging"? One could then assume that because it is just a repression the emotions can reassert itself rather quickly.

brothersinarm · Post by **brothersinarm** » 2003-04-06 01:49am

am i commiting Occam's Razor? I'm actually not sure so can anyone answer that? I am assuming that Kohlinar is a repression of emotion rather than a purging because T'pol went through this ritual to suppress the memories and emotions she felt after killing another vulcan while chasing him down. (Not sure the episode, still looking).

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-04-06 01:53am

brothersinarm wrote:isn't more "repression" than "purging"? One could then assume that because it is just a repression the emotions can reassert itself rather quickly.

Where was it mentioned that it was just a repression? I always heard it was a purging.

KhyronTheBackstabber · Post by **KhyronTheBackstabber** » 2003-04-06 03:53am

Well, if it's just repression, then the vulcan falls to the Darkside. And probaly pretty quick too, seeing how the calm, good emotions will be repressed, and present no conflict.

If it's a purge, then it's like I said befor, the vulcan won't beable to tap into the Darkside.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2003-04-08 03:13am

Vulcans aren't invulnerable to emotions. On the Enterprise series T'Pol showed quite a few emotions especially anger. (Can't remember the episode but T'pol was hunting a fugitive and had her emotions erased by some vulcan ritual)

Please don't use Enterprise for examples.
It's so painful to think of.

But I agree that Vulcans aren't invulnerable to emotions.
There are examples of this in TOS.

'Journey to Babel' with the understated interplay between Sarek and Amanda would be one example.

Sarek's reaction when he discovers that Kirk doesn't have Spock's conciousness in him in ST: TSFS is another example.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-04-08 02:03pm

Even though Vulcans don't display emotions that doesn't mean they don't have them. This is stated several times in various Trek programs and other materials. The Kohlinar is the ultimate technique in supression of the emotions.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-04-08 10:11pm

Darth Pounder wrote:Even though Vulcans don't display emotions that doesn't mean they don't have them. This is stated several times in various Trek programs and other materials. The Kohlinar is the ultimate technique in supression of the emotions.

The problem is that suppressing emotions probably would be the stupidest thing to do when using the Force. The Force is about instinct. To suppress emotions could conceivably result in blanking out your instinct.

Worse, the suppressed anger might lead the Vulcan toward the Dark Side. Remember, a Vulcan's emotions are stronger than human ones. And emotions are dangerous to a Force user, as strong emotions can be easily twisted toward anger, hate, frustration and despair.

DocMoriartty · Post by **DocMoriartty** » 2003-04-09 03:24pm

Emotions are caused by a wide range of things both environmental and biochemical in the body.

Can anyone tell me how any 12 step self help program could "purge" emotions from a vulcan?

They are merely repressed.

ANGELUS · Post by **ANGELUS** » 2003-04-10 09:22am

brothersinarm wrote:I would agree with KhyronTheBackstabber. Vulcans aren't invulnerable to emotions. On the Enterprise series T'Pol showed quite a few emotions especially anger. (Can't remember the episode but T'pol was hunting a fugitive and had her emotions erased by some vulcan ritual)

That's exactly the point, we don't know how Kohlinar really works or what it really does. So I don't think Vulcans who have done it would be good users of the force. As it was said, The Force is not about logic, it's about instinct and passion (especially the dark side). Vulcans have it but they have chosen not to use it. If Kohlinar really purges the emotions then you can't use the force.

Ajaz50 · Post by **Ajaz50** » 2003-04-10 07:58pm

Kohlinar, mearly increses the supresion of emoution not eliminates it. Vulcuns have and always will have emoutions they have simply been surpresed since Surak and the Time of Awakaning when the vulcan profit relised that the Vulcan's emoutions were simply to strong and needed to be supressed otherwise they'd kill themselves. Even after Kohlinar there may be outward sines of emoution. Kohlinar is mearly a good ammount of meditation in the desert and lot of vulcan exersises. The prime example for vulcans having emoution is Pon-Far which is their time of mating, all emoutions are then relised, as can be seen in any epasode which showcases this ritual.

Therefor VUlcan's have emoutions and can be jedi. However they would not investigate the Dark Side, simply because it would be "illogical" being a jedi might be illogical as well (in which case they would not become one). The Vulcans, despite all their talk, are very insuler, despite over 150 years with the humans the Vulcans never sent anyone to starfleet acadamy (or any other traning center) till Spock, and it took a while after that for anyone else to join.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-04-10 08:16pm

How would investigating the Dark Side be illogical? Just because it concerns emotions?

Besides the concept of supressing emotions is illogical. It can be very dangerous to simply supress them.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-04-10 08:49pm

Ajaz50 wrote:Kohlinar, mearly increses the supresion of emoution not eliminates it. Vulcuns have and always will have emoutions they have simply been surpresed since Surak and the Time of Awakaning when the vulcan profit relised that the Vulcan's emoutions were simply to strong and needed to be supressed otherwise they'd kill themselves. Even after Kohlinar there may be outward sines of emoution. Kohlinar is mearly a good ammount of meditation in the desert and lot of vulcan exersises. The prime example for vulcans having emoution is Pon-Far which is their time of mating, all emoutions are then relised, as can be seen in any epasode which showcases this ritual.

So they're really ticking bombs of emotion held in check by mental gymnastics? Gotcha.

Ajaz50 wrote:Therefor VUlcan's have emoutions and can be jedi. However they would not investigate the Dark Side, simply because it would be "illogical"

As someone pointed out, why would it be illogical? That anger is a strong, and useful, emotion should be recognized as an eminently logical fact. Sounds like wishful thinking on your part.

Ajaz50 wrote:being a jedi might be illogical as well (in which case they would not become one). The Vulcans, despite all their talk, are very insuler, despite over 150 years with the humans the Vulcans never sent anyone to starfleet acadamy (or any other traning center) till Spock, and it took a while after that for anyone else to join.

Yes, I can see the logical problem with being Jedi. No wait, that was sarcasm.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-10 09:04pm

I think a Vulcan would make an awesome Jedi. With that devotion to discipline and logic, he or she could become very powerful.

Ajaz50 · Post by **Ajaz50** » 2003-04-10 09:04pm

I was simply stating possabilatys no need to get uppity about it....

As I said if the vulcans left there emoutions unchecked they would distroy themselves, thats why its illogical.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-04-10 09:10pm

Ajaz50 wrote:I was simply stating possabilatys no need to get uppity about it....

As I said if the vulcans left there emoutions unchecked they would distroy themselves, thats why its illogical.

And supression is better how? Especially if it means that they are unable to handle it when emotion does appear?

Besides, emotion does not necessarily hinder logic.

There is a pretty good article on Vulcan "logic" in the latest edition of the Star Trek magazine, I don't remember the title.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-04-10 09:19pm

Ajaz50 wrote:I was simply stating possabilatys no need to get uppity about it....

As I said if the vulcans left there emoutions unchecked they would distroy themselves, thats why its illogical.

Allright, you're making sense here. But they can't control their emotions during Ponn Farr, which is when they most need to. A Vulcan during Ponn Farr would be Darkside Central, I should think.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-04-11 01:35am

Eleas wrote:
Ajaz50 wrote:I was simply stating possabilatys no need to get uppity about it....

As I said if the vulcans left there emoutions unchecked they would distroy themselves, thats why its illogical.
Allright, you're making sense here. But they can't control their emotions during Ponn Farr, which is when they most need to. A Vulcan during Ponn Farr would be Darkside Central, I should think.

Vulcans CAN control their emotions during pon farr, it is just more difficult for them. But mating makes controlling their emotions much much easier during pon farr, so all the need to do is get some.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-04-11 05:03am

Death from the Sea wrote:
Eleas wrote: Allright, you're making sense here. But they can't control their emotions during Ponn Farr, which is when they most need to. A Vulcan during Ponn Farr would be Darkside Central, I should think.
Vulcans CAN control their emotions during pon farr, it is just more difficult for them. But mating makes controlling their emotions much much easier during pon farr, so all the need to do is get some.

Yeah, but let's face it, the Dark Side is difficult enought to keep in check without having to account for hyper-hormonal urges.

Ajaz50 · Post by **Ajaz50** » 2003-04-23 10:17pm

I just re-read Zhan's Thrawn series which is, I belive, canon. It talked a good bit about how one of the main things a light jedi needs is to supress there emoutions and be at peace... sound familier?

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2003-04-24 08:40pm

Ajaz50 wrote:I just re-read Zhan's Thrawn series which is, I belive, canon. It talked a good bit about how one of the main things a light jedi needs is to supress there emoutions and be at peace... sound familier?

It does.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-04-26 01:38pm

Isn't the entire pre-Luke Jedi Knighthood also centered around supressing one's emotions? Of course, some are better than others . . .