It was inevitable...What's Captain Sisko's worst fuck-up?

[Mr. B]

Sisko should have crashed DS9 into Bajor. It would have emilinated the problem of the station, and given a horrible blow to those turncoats appeasers.

Or he could have crashed it into the wormhole with the self destruct armed.

They could move the station in the pilot, why not for the final season.

[Akira]

He might not have had a choice; he may have been held up by Starfleet Command, the ultimate
den of fools.

In any case, I think a better example of his incompetence can be found in "Sacrifice of Angels."
Consider:

[*]it is absolutely imperative that he reach DS9 before Dukat can disable the minefield.
[*]He is confronted with a large Dominion wall of ships: 1200 ships, mostly fighters.
[*]He has 600 ships, of which an unknown percentage are fighters.
[*]He decides to keep his fleet in one unit and take the Dominion fleet head-on, rather than
spreading out his forces and coming at DS9 from multiple vectors.

Think about it: from a defensive standpoint, it's much easier to deal with an attacker if he keeps
all his forces in a single unit and attacks from just one direction. It greatly simplifies your tactics.
Therefore, only a complete idiot would choose to attack in that manner!

Yes, he was told by Starfleet Command not to do anything about it. They knew that if something
was done about it, then the Dominion would attack with everything they had before Starfleet was
ready. Starfleet (on it's own) has between 8-12000 capital class ships. In peace time, Starfleet's
ships are mostly out on deep space missions, patrol missions, etc. They would need some time to
recall ships from deep space and from other missions, regroup them from small taskforces or
alone into fleets and send them to where they are needed.

Starfleet had 12000 Cap ships just before the start of the Dominion war. This count DOES
NOT inculde fighters, shuttles, runabouts, tugs, shuttlepods or anything else. (Like member fleets,
priv ships etc)

Bullshit. You are using a hearsay offscreen quote, which is neither canon or official. Moreover, it
was explicitly stated to include support craft, and you are lying about it referring exclusively to
capital warships. What is it about you hardcore Trekkie fanatics that makes you want to lie in
order to exaggerate Trek power? Provide a shred of canon evidence for this 12,000 ship count,
particularly when they have only 150 planets, so this would mean 80 capships per planet, and
Earth was only guarded by one ship in "Paradise Lost".

That 8-12000 Starfleet fleet count is right from Paramount. That is as Canon as you can get. It is
not some hearsay quote that someone made up. The UFP had 150 member
HOMEWORLDS at the time of TNG. By the Dominion war the UFP was up to at least 160
members. The quote from FC was "OVER 150 members" not 150 members. OVER.

In "Paradise Lost", Earth was defended by the USS Lakota. The only ship in the sector that was
loyal to Layton. At that point the Dominion had not moved though the wormhole, Starfleet had
started the redeployment. The Lakota was the ship that was in Earth ORBIT at the time of the
power outage. There were other ships in the sector. There were however no other ships in the
sector loyal to the rouge Layton. No other UFP ship would have attacked another UFP ship in
what was at that point peacetime. The Lakota was told by Layton that the Defiant had been taken
over by the Dominion, and because the commander of the Lakota was good friends with Layton
and had no reason not to trust him, she had no reason not to question it. Any other UFP ship
would have wanted more prove then just Layton's say so.

And yet, the Dominion could only spare 200 ships to attack DS9 with. (and the next
ep we see after that is 5 months later) so the Dominion goes from 200 spare ships for attack
fleets, to 15000+ in the space of 5 months with only Cardassian systems to use.

Evidence? Show us these 15,000+ warships; they did not appear in any battles onscreen, nor
were they even mentioned.

They said so near the end of Season 7. After the Breen entered the war, before the UFP
recovered a Breen weapon, the KE had to keep the Dominion Alliance at bay. At the start of that
time the Martok said that they could have 1500 ships modified and on the front line within a day.
(note, this is just what could be done and in place in a day, it is not the whole of the KE fleet as
some people have said) That 1500 ship force was said to be outnumbered by the Dominion
Alliance 20 to 1. 1500*20=30000. Take out the Cardie and Breen ships from that and you get
around 15-19000 Dominion (Jem'Hadar) ships. By that point about 18 months into the war, the
Dominion (not counting war losses) had built 15000+ ships. They had even run full R&D on at
least TWO new ship classes. – Not bad for 18 months, cut off from your main forces. That's
almost, if not better then the Empire.

Not having the Defiant glass the surface position where the Jem'Hadar
were landing in the Siege of AR-588 was a pretty stupid move. The rough terrain would have
easily protected the array from a low yield torpedo or phaser blast.

How? The Defiant was under heavy fire from 2 Dominion Battleships. The Defiant had to look out
for itself before it could think of attacking a surface position.

another thing is the fact that the mine field can be turned off at all. any good
mine field would be autononomus of any outside control system. In the case of the laying power
they already know where the mines are so can easily remove them. so an outside method of
disabling the mines is idiotic.

It was. Once the mines were activated then they could not be turned off by anyone. The only
reason the field came down at all was because the Dominion found a weakness in them. Rom,
the designer of the mines, worked that out in about 5 seconds after he heard about the beam.
If the design team had not had only a few days to design and place the mines, then that one
weakness would have been located and worked out. Any new deployment of the mines would be
without that weakness. I know what your going to say here. You about to go on about "prove it.
That was not said in the show. Blah blah blah. Well. That's the way R&D works. If you want to
use logical like that on me, then I can use it on you.

Yet come 'Favour the Bold', it does seem that there is a larger force protecting
earth. Sisko wanted to pull a fleet (The 5th fleet, if I recall correctly) from earth to help form his
attack force.

Depending on whether or not you accept fleet numbers in the region of 100 or so ships (as the
7th fleet was), this could give us around 100 ships per fleet. This does not match however, with
the 600 or so ships formed by the combination of two fleets in 'SOA'.

What all that means for Fed fleet strength is that either in times of war, the Feds can increase
their ship-building capacity, or they simply had more ships than believed. Given the lack of a
major threat (aside from the Borg) until the Dominion arrived, I believe the former. When the
Founders showed they could infiltrate earth, The Federation took the threat seriously for a
change.

You see the diff. here? In PL, it was peace time. In FtB it was 6 months into a war. The 3rd fleet
(with the E-E as it's flag ship) was defending Earth. The 7th Fleet was on one of the front lines. All
we know about the 7th fleet was that a wing(?) of 112 ships was attacked by the Dominion, with
98 ships lost. We don't know if that was the whole of the 7th fleet, (a front line fleet after 4-5
months of war, would have been down to less then 50% of it's starting force), or just a wing.
(There is an ep about 6-7 months after that battle where the 7th fleet is mentioned in an attack)


Sisko wanted the 2nd, 5th and 9th fleets to join his attack on DS9, as well as a Kingon fleet. They
could not just pull the whole fleet away from their defense posts, so they just take some
"elements". We don't know how much of the fleet an "element" is, all we know is that "elements"
(more then 1) pulled from 2 fleets makes 632 cap ships. (Fighters, Shuttles and runabouts are
called "craft" by Starfleet, NOT SHIPS)

There is also mention of the feds re-building shipyards, this could be
because the Dominon destroyed some (we have no mention of this however) or because the
Feds were building shipyards that they got rid of when they disarmed after ST 6.

The quote from BOBW was less than a year and the quote isnt exacly great its self it doesnt give
us an exact time period but when she says have the fleet back up does she mean they will have
recovered the 40 ship loses or that the fleet will have got actual the normal increase of ships plus
the 40 ships.

They could have refit 40 ships inside a year to replce the wolf 359 loses without affecting their
normal shipbuilding (the loses werent of new shiups and most of them seemed to be ships that
had be dragged into action for the crisis.

The above is simply a way to match the big fleet number to the 40 ships quote for evidence of the
12,000 ships see the thread on the subject.

The BoBW battle. The UFP lost 39/42 ships to the Borg. Then we are told that they will "have the
fleet back up in less then a year" That DOES NOT mean that Starfleet can only build 40
ships/year in peace time. That means that still in peacetime, the fleet will have it's normal new
ships for the year + 40 ships.

SOA is not that huge of a blunder. Splitting your fleets only works if the enemy
doesn't know where they are, or where they are coming from. For instance if his Fleet is at Earth
and he splits in two to attack from opposite directions, if the Dominion can track his fleet
movements, relay that information, and then have time for their fleet's to reposition (which is not
unlikely as they have a far shorter distance to travel) he would likely end up with the same odds
on two seperate fronts ... and about the same odds of breaking through.

Besides which even if he gets ahead of the Dominion and does get into better position, they need
only retreat their fleet closer to DS9 until his multivector assualt converges. Remember the
Dominion does not have to defend territory or a strategic line ... just a point. As such if they get
flanked, englobed, or anything else interesting they just fall back to that point and fight there.

What Sisko should have done was move the feddie fleet into position and draw the Dominion fleet
away from DS9. Their job is to just keep the dominion busy. Send the *cloaked* Klingon fleet to
DS9 as the dominion will not know where they are coming from, as opposed to having the
Klingons head to battle site.

He was planning to spilt his fleet. Just look at the screen on his wall when he brings the plan to
the war theater commanders on Starbase 375. The Dominion has anti-proton beams on their
ships which can detect cloaked ships moving faster then warp 5, so a cloaked fleet attack would
not have worked. Unless they were traveling slower then warp 6, but if they did, they would not
have made it to DS9 in time.


more later.

[Eleas]

Yes, he was told by Starfleet Command not to do anything about it. They knew that if something
was done about it, then the Dominion would attack with everything they had before Starfleet was
ready.

I think it's time to clue you in to some basic debating rules. You see, when we claim something, we consider if something called "evidence" is there to support it. If so, we post this "evidence". Where's yours?

Starfleet (on it's own) has between 8-12000 capital class ships. In peace time, Starfleet's ships are mostly out on deep space missions, patrol missions, etc. They would need some time to recall ships from deep space and from other missions, regroup them from small taskforces or
alone into fleets and send them to where they are needed.

Another mere assertation, lacking in any substance whatsoever, and about as useful as a fundamentalist Christian using the Bible to discuss fluid mechanics.

That 8-12000 Starfleet fleet count is right from Paramount. That is as Canon as you can get. It is
not some hearsay quote that someone made up.

Prove it.

The UFP had 150 member HOMEWORLDS at the time of TNG. By the Dominion war the UFP was up to at least 160
members. The quote from FC was "OVER 150 members" not 150 members. OVER.

Prove member worlds = homeworlds. Prove these had increased to at least 160 by the time of the War. Prove you're not a lying sack of shit while you're at it, please.

In "Paradise Lost", Earth was defended by the USS Lakota. The only ship in the sector that was loyal to Layton. At that point the Dominion had not moved though the wormhole, Starfleet had started the redeployment. The Lakota was the ship that was in Earth ORBIT at the time of the power outage. There were other ships in the sector.

Irrelevant. Do we even know how large a sector is?

There were however no other ships in the sector loyal to the rouge Layton. No other UFP ship would have attacked another UFP ship in
what was at that point peacetime. The Lakota was told by Layton that the Defiant had been taken over by the Dominion, and because the commander of the Lakota was good friends with Layton
and had no reason not to trust him, she had no reason not to question it. Any other UFP ship would have wanted more prove then just Layton's say so.

I fail to see what this has to do with fleet strength.

They said so near the end of Season 7.

Prove it.

After the Breen entered the war, before the UFP
recovered a Breen weapon, the KE had to keep the Dominion Alliance at bay. At the start of that
time the Martok said that they could have 1500 ships modified and on the front line within a day.
(note, this is just what could be done and in place in a day, it is not the whole of the KE fleet as
some people have said) That 1500 ship force was said to be outnumbered by the Dominion
Alliance 20 to 1. 1500*20=30000. Take out the Cardie and Breen ships from that and you get
around 15-19000 Dominion (Jem'Hadar) ships. By that point about 18 months into the war, the
Dominion (not counting war losses) had built 15000+ ships. They had even run full R&D on at
least TWO new ship classes. – Not bad for 18 months, cut off from your main forces. That's
almost, if not better then the Empire.

ROTFLMAO!!! *rolls around convulsively without being able to breathe*

My god. Your stupidity reaches new heights.

A Jem'Hadar attack ship is 150 meters long. This gives it a volume no more than twice that of a Corellian Corvette. We've seen enough of the composition of Dominion forces to know that there usually is a significant majority of attack ships in the fleet. The rest is mainly Battlecruisers, about the size of VSDs. Discounting the few superships that weren't brought in until the end of the war, the Dominion produced the equivalent of 20 000 Corellian Corvettes and 10000 VSDs, to be very generous, in who knows how many years of construction. Your insinuatuion that they must have built these ships while in the Alpha Quadrant or even during this decade is unsubstantiated and very implausible.

Meanwhile, the Empire cranked out a number of ISDs (each equivalent in volume to three VSDs), two Death Stars, an unspecified number of smaller craft, system pacification fleets and local police forces, not to mention the awesome command ships. Discounting all but the ISDs and the two Death Stars, we find their volume to weigh in at 3.8E17 m^3.

That's equivalent to 12.8 billion VSDs, most of which were produced secretly, meaning it wasn't even a drain on the Empire's resources.

That was not said in the show. Blah blah blah. Well. That's the way R&D works. If you want to
use logical like that on me, then I can use it on you.

Too bad you're incapable of using logic. Just because something has a weakness doesn't mean it's easily eliminated. For all we know, the mines' vulnerability was linked to its operation. Or not. Today we know of electronics and their vulnerability to direct nuclear strikes. Should be easy enough to fix, right?

Aside: so we're using "logical" now? Hey Mike, give him some more "logical", I think he's choking on it!

Sisko wanted the 2nd, 5th and 9th fleets to join his attack on DS9, as well as a Kingon fleet. They
could not just pull the whole fleet away from their defense posts, so they just take some
"elements". We don't know how much of the fleet an "element" is, all we know is that "elements"
(more then 1) pulled from 2 fleets makes 632 cap ships. (Fighters, Shuttles and runabouts are
called "craft" by Starfleet, NOT SHIPS)

The attack on DS9 was vital and could not have succeeded without significant resources allocated there. This clearly necessitated a major force. Also, show me proof of this semantic bullshit (we know SF include fighters in their fleet estimates).

The BoBW battle. The UFP lost 39/42 ships to the Borg. Then we are told that they will "have the
fleet back up in less then a year" That DOES NOT mean that Starfleet can only build 40
ships/year in peace time. That means that still in peacetime, the fleet will have it's normal new
ships for the year + 40 ships.

Proof of any of this sperm-laden fanboy bullshit?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

You see, Akira, in a debate, your own ass in not considered a good source of evidence. So stop pulling stuff out of it.

[Akira]

What ass? I don't have an ass to pull anything out of

Oh here's an idea. HOW ABOUT YOU WATCH THE EPS WITH THE SOUND ON.

It clearly states in a number of eps, movies, both TM, and at least 1 of the canon books that shuttles, fighters and runabouts are CRAFT and NOT STARSHIPS.

I say something, you say prove it. I post my sources, the quote and an example and all you say is "Bull shit, prove it". Just how am I going to prove it if everytime I do you say that's not evidence, it's something I pulled out of my ass.

Well how about you watch the eps, read what is canon, have a look around for canon info and get back to me.

If you want me to belive that the Empire can kick the UFP in to next year, then don't call my evidence "Bull shit"

You all claim to have seen Star Trek, and that you know what you are talking about in regards to the Empire vs the UFP. From the last 2 posts, I can see that at least some of you *looks at Eleas* know jack shit about Star Trek.


A sector is 20x20x20 Lightyears as stated in a number of eps.

[Mr. B]

It clearly states in a number of eps, movies, both TM, and at least 1 of the canon books that shuttles, fighters and runabouts are CRAFT and NOT STARSHIPS.

That's pretty vague. You say it's there but you have to go through 500 hours of video to catch it. You should name your sources not vaguely describe where they might be.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

What ass? I don't have an ass to pull anything out of

Oh here's an idea. HOW ABOUT YOU WATCH THE EPS WITH THE SOUND ON.

I haven't even watched most of the episodes period, and I still know what the hell's going on.

It clearly states in a number of eps, movies, both TM, and at least 1 of the canon books that shuttles, fighters and runabouts are CRAFT and NOT STARSHIPS.

You do know that a lot of Pro-Trek people use that method for estimating the number of SF ships, don't you?

I say something, you say prove it. I post my sources, the quote and an example and all you say is "Bull shit, prove it". Just how am I going to prove it if everytime I do you say that's not evidence, it's something I pulled out of my ass.

When you learn to use something that's accepted as a canon source and not your "Interpretation" of the information or shit you just make up.

Well how about you watch the eps, read what is canon, have a look around for canon info and get back to me.

How about you just stop telling us what to do until you learn what qualifies as fucking canon for both Paramount and Lucasfilm Limited.

If you want me to belive that the Empire can kick the UFP in to next year, then don't call my evidence "Bull shit"

Then stop using bullshit as evidence, you retard.

You all claim to have seen Star Trek, and that you know what you are talking about in regards to the Empire vs the UFP. From the last 2 posts, I can see that at least some of you *looks at Eleas* know jack shit about Star Trek.

Pure Speculation does not equal Understanding.

In closing:

Eat me.

Love, Spanky.

[0.1]

Akira,

Please answer the following questions set at SOA time frame. If the Federation/Klink had roughly equal numbers of ships and that number ran somewhere between 8000 to 12000 times two for each member of the Alliance. Given the Dominion victories up to that point, would it be fair to say that the Dominion/Cardassian Alliance had more ships?

Dukat states that the reinforcement from Gamma quadrant will be able to deal a crushing blow to the Feds. That reinforcement numbered 2800 ships. That means that the reinforcement coming through would make up a very large part of the combined Dominion/Cardassian Alliance in the Alpha quad.

Given the pre war number you stated: 8000 - 12000, it is probably logical to assume that the Romulans had the same number of ships as either the Fed or the Klingons. Otherwise, even if the Feds wouldn't crush them, the Klingons would have. Arguments regarding how the Klingons might have been constrained by neighbors would not apply since the Klingons didn't waste any time in trying to steamroll the Cardassians when they thought it was necessary.

So, if the Rommies were on equal parity in terms of ships (not numbers necessarily, but surely in terms of quality), and the Fed/Klingons had been whittled down that much from their original number which you claim to be 8000 - 12000 so that 2800 ships worth of Dominion reinforcement would win the war, then why didn't the Roms who had thus far been uninvolved not take advantage of either Fed/Klink weakness, or even Dominion weakness? Again, we assume that Roms had to be at least in parity on military terms with the Feds or the Klingons before the war.

[Isolder74]

There we go then, I hope all the people who rushed for the lynching bask in my morally superior gloating .

Isolder74:Isnt engineering that little pit in Ops? or do you mean down by the fusion core.

I mean by "Engineering" is any place of strategic use to the ocupier. Ie anywhere that has access to base systems. open a control panel and boom

[TheDarkling]

The Romulans prefer to play both sides against the middle, helping the Dominion overtly would have caused the Romulans to become slaves but helping the Fed/Klings would mean that they had a good chance of defeating the Dominion with few losses.

Its standard Romulan tactic to let overs determine their position (Ref Neutral Zone), they were trying to weaken the everyone except themselves thus boosting their position however in the end they took action because they thought the Dominion was about to turn on them.

We are told many times that the Feds are more powerfull that the Romulans and the Klingons.

The Founder says the Roms/Kling arent a threat without the Federation and when Odo is trying to talk her into a cease fire he makes it clear that the Feds could easily stop the Klings/Roms from taking the fight to the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant.

The Romulans actions are perfectly in character for them and make complete sense.

Now for the 3000 ships they could have tipped the balance against the Alliance because it is a 10% boost to Dominion forces, thats a big percentage, not to mention new supplies and the possibility of further reinforcements in the future.

The Dominion was spread thin and once the 3000 ships didnt arrive they fell back and even began to seek peace (although it was a ploy).

[Eleas]

What ass? I don't have an ass to pull anything out of

Oh here's an idea. HOW ABOUT YOU WATCH THE EPS WITH THE SOUND ON.

Oh, look, here's another: how about you prove your own god damn assertions, fuckwit?

It clearly states in a number of eps, movies, both TM, and at least 1 of the canon books that shuttles, fighters and runabouts are CRAFT and NOT STARSHIPS.

No Trek book is canon, Sparky.

I say something, you say prove it. I post my sources, the quote and an example and all you say is "Bull shit, prove it".

Fuck you. You haven't posted a single god damn quote in this thread. All you've done is insisted that they were somewhere in an episode. You may not possess a rectum, but your mind is doing a remarkable job simulating it.

Just how am I going to prove it if everytime I do you say that's not evidence, it's something I pulled out of my ass.

Simply quote the fucking statement, you moron.

Well how about you watch the eps, read what is canon, have a look around for canon info and get back to me.

Oh my. I do believe... let me check... that's right, I almost laughed. A bog-standard trekkie, still wet behind the scrotum, with zero knowledge of quoting and less of canon policy, is attempting to teach me how to debate. Oh insipid child, I've taken on entire forums singlehandedly and won. I debate you solely for my own amusement, nothing more.

If you want me to belive that the Empire can kick the UFP in to next year, then don't call my evidence "Bull shit"

I care nothing for your beliefs, other than mashing them flat, which I did in my previous post.

You all claim to have seen Star Trek, and that you know what you are talking about in regards to the Empire vs the UFP. From the last 2 posts, I can see that at least some of you *looks at Eleas* know jack shit about Star Trek.

That's a pretty funny statement coming from someone who can't even muster the courage to attack my arguments, even if he somehow found the intelligence to do so. Hence, I am perfectly justified in flaming you. Oh, and it's fun too.

A sector is 20x20x20 Lightyears as stated in a number of eps.

...which you conveniently refuse to name. Your concession is accepted.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

What ass? I don't have an ass to pull anything out of

Oh here's an idea. HOW ABOUT YOU WATCH THE EPS WITH THE SOUND ON.

Oh here's an idea. HOW ABOUT YOU GIVE AN EXAMPLE OTHER THEN HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF EPISDOES.

It clearly states in a number of eps, movies, both TM, and at least 1 of the canon books that shuttles, fighters and runabouts are CRAFT and NOT STARSHIPS.

That's not proof. I want quotes, not claims.

I say something, you say prove it. I post my sources, the quote and an example and all you say is "Bull shit, prove it". Just how am I going to prove it if everytime I do you say that's not evidence, it's something I pulled out of my ass.

What evidence.

Well how about you watch the eps, read what is canon, have a look around for canon info and get back to me.

Oh, that type of evidence.

If you want me to belive that the Empire can kick the UFP in to next year, then don't call my evidence "Bull shit"

Then read Mike's site.

You all claim to have seen Star Trek, and that you know what you are talking about in regards to the Empire vs the UFP. From the last 2 posts, I can see that at least some of you *looks at Eleas* know jack shit about Star Trek.

You've ignored my posts.

A sector is 20x20x20 Lightyears as stated in a number of eps.

Unproven Claims.

[TheDarkling]

No Trek book is canon, Sparky.

Pathways and Mosaic are both Canon.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

He might not have had a choice; he may have been held up by Starfleet Command, the ultimate
den of fools.

In any case, I think a better example of his incompetence can be found in "Sacrifice of Angels."
Consider:

[*]it is absolutely imperative that he reach DS9 before Dukat can disable the minefield.
[*]He is confronted with a large Dominion wall of ships: 1200 ships, mostly fighters.
[*]He has 600 ships, of which an unknown percentage are fighters.
[*]He decides to keep his fleet in one unit and take the Dominion fleet head-on, rather than
spreading out his forces and coming at DS9 from multiple vectors.

Think about it: from a defensive standpoint, it's much easier to deal with an attacker if he keeps
all his forces in a single unit and attacks from just one direction. It greatly simplifies your tactics.
Therefore, only a complete idiot would choose to attack in that manner!

Yes, he was told by Starfleet Command not to do anything about it. They knew that if something
was done about it, then the Dominion would attack with everything they had before Starfleet was
ready. Starfleet (on it's own) has between 8-12000 capital class ships. In peace time, Starfleet's
ships are mostly out on deep space missions, patrol missions, etc. They would need some time to
recall ships from deep space and from other missions, regroup them from small taskforces or
alone into fleets and send them to where they are needed.

That's a total red herring! He was talking about splitting his forces during the battle!

Bullshit. You are using a hearsay offscreen quote, which is neither canon or official. Moreover, it
was explicitly stated to include support craft, and you are lying about it referring exclusively to
capital warships. What is it about you hardcore Trekkie fanatics that makes you want to lie in
order to exaggerate Trek power? Provide a shred of canon evidence for this 12,000 ship count,
particularly when they have only 150 planets, so this would mean 80 capships per planet, and
Earth was only guarded by one ship in "Paradise Lost".

That 8-12000 Starfleet fleet count is right from Paramount. That is as Canon as you can get.

Provide a quote.

It is
not some hearsay quote that someone made up. The UFP had 150 member
HOMEWORLDS at the time of TNG. By the Dominion war the UFP was up to at least 160
members. The quote from FC was "OVER 150 members" not 150 members. OVER.

So over 150 means 160. It could mean 152.

In "Paradise Lost", Earth was defended by the USS Lakota. The only ship in the sector that was
loyal to Layton. At that point the Dominion had not moved though the wormhole, Starfleet had
started the redeployment. The Lakota was the ship that was in Earth ORBIT at the time of the
power outage. There were other ships in the sector. There were however no other ships in the
sector loyal to the rouge Layton. No other UFP ship would have attacked another UFP ship in
what was at that point peacetime. The Lakota was told by Layton that the Defiant had been taken
over by the Dominion, and because the commander of the Lakota was good friends with Layton
and had no reason not to trust him, she had no reason not to question it. Any other UFP ship
would have wanted more prove then just Layton's say so.

That ignores there were no other ships at Earth. I don't remember hearing about "loyal to Layton"

And yet, the Dominion could only spare 200 ships to attack DS9 with. (and the next
ep we see after that is 5 months later) so the Dominion goes from 200 spare ships for attack
fleets, to 15000+ in the space of 5 months with only Cardassian systems to use.

Evidence? Show us these 15,000+ warships; they did not appear in any battles onscreen, nor
were they even mentioned.

They said so near the end of Season 7. After the Breen entered the war, before the UFP
recovered a Breen weapon, the KE had to keep the Dominion Alliance at bay. At the start of that
time the Martok said that they could have 1500 ships modified and on the front line within a day.
(note, this is just what could be done and in place in a day, it is not the whole of the KE fleet as
some people have said) That 1500 ship force was said to be outnumbered by the Dominion
Alliance 20 to 1. 1500*20=30000. Take out the Cardie and Breen ships from that and you get
around 15-19000 Dominion (Jem'Hadar) ships. By that point about 18 months into the war, the
Dominion (not counting war losses) had built 15000+ ships. They had even run full R&D on at
least TWO new ship classes. – Not bad for 18 months, cut off from your main forces. That's
almost, if not better then the Empire.

You haven't proved they built all 15 000 ships in the Alpha Quandrant.

Not having the Defiant glass the surface position where the Jem'Hadar
were landing in the Siege of AR-588 was a pretty stupid move. The rough terrain would have
easily protected the array from a low yield torpedo or phaser blast.

How? The Defiant was under heavy fire from 2 Dominion Battleships. The Defiant had to look out
for itself before it could think of attacking a surface position.

2 Dominion FIGHTERS IIRC.

another thing is the fact that the mine field can be turned off at all. any good
mine field would be autononomus of any outside control system. In the case of the laying power
they already know where the mines are so can easily remove them. so an outside method of
disabling the mines is idiotic.

It was. Once the mines were activated then they could not be turned off by anyone. The only
reason the field came down at all was because the Dominion found a weakness in them. Rom,
the designer of the mines, worked that out in about 5 seconds after he heard about the beam.
If the design team had not had only a few days to design and place the mines, then that one
weakness would have been located and worked out. Any new deployment of the mines would be
without that weakness. I know what your going to say here. You about to go on about "prove it.
That was not said in the show. Blah blah blah. Well. That's the way R&D works. If you want to
use logical like that on me, then I can use it on you.

So a full team making the mines couldn't figure out what Rom did "in about 5 seconds"

Yet come 'Favour the Bold', it does seem that there is a larger force protecting
earth. Sisko wanted to pull a fleet (The 5th fleet, if I recall correctly) from earth to help form his
attack force.

Depending on whether or not you accept fleet numbers in the region of 100 or so ships (as the
7th fleet was), this could give us around 100 ships per fleet. This does not match however, with
the 600 or so ships formed by the combination of two fleets in 'SOA'.

What all that means for Fed fleet strength is that either in times of war, the Feds can increase
their ship-building capacity, or they simply had more ships than believed. Given the lack of a
major threat (aside from the Borg) until the Dominion arrived, I believe the former. When the
Founders showed they could infiltrate earth, The Federation took the threat seriously for a
change.

You see the diff. here? In PL, it was peace time. In FtB it was 6 months into a war. The 3rd fleet
(with the E-E as it's flag ship) was defending Earth. The 7th Fleet was on one of the front lines. All
we know about the 7th fleet was that a wing(?) of 112 ships was attacked by the Dominion, with
98 ships lost. We don't know if that was the whole of the 7th fleet, (a front line fleet after 4-5
months of war,

3 months. O'Brien's own words.

would have been down to less then 50% of it's starting force),

Prove it.

or just a wing.

It was called the 7th fleet, not a wing from it.

(There is an ep about 6-7 months after that battle where the 7th fleet is mentioned in an attack)

For the last bloody time, give a quote!!!

Sisko wanted the 2nd, 5th and 9th fleets to join his attack on DS9, as well as a Kingon fleet. They
could not just pull the whole fleet away from their defense posts, so they just take some
"elements". We don't know how much of the fleet an "element" is, all we know is that "elements"
(more then 1) pulled from 2 fleets makes 632 cap ships. (Fighters, Shuttles and runabouts are
called "craft" by Starfleet, NOT SHIPS)

Prove it.

And they were called large enemy fleets by Weyoun. "2 large enemy fleets have broken off and you don't know why?" was the quote or something.

There is also mention of the feds re-building shipyards, this could be
because the Dominon destroyed some (we have no mention of this however) or because the
Feds were building shipyards that they got rid of when they disarmed after ST 6.

The quote from BOBW was less than a year and the quote isnt exacly great its self it doesnt give
us an exact time period but when she says have the fleet back up does she mean they will have
recovered the 40 ship loses or that the fleet will have got actual the normal increase of ships plus
the 40 ships.

They could have refit 40 ships inside a year to replce the wolf 359 loses without affecting their
normal shipbuilding (the loses werent of new shiups and most of them seemed to be ships that
had be dragged into action for the crisis.

The above is simply a way to match the big fleet number to the 40 ships quote for evidence of the
12,000 ships see the thread on the subject.

The BoBW battle. The UFP lost 39/42 ships to the Borg. Then we are told that they will "have the
fleet back up in less then a year" That DOES NOT mean that Starfleet can only build 40
ships/year in peace time. That means that still in peacetime, the fleet will have it's normal new
ships for the year + 40 ships.

Prove it. They lose 40 ships. She says they'll have the fleet back up in a year. That logically means they can recover from 40 ships destroyed in a year.

SOA is not that huge of a blunder. Splitting your fleets only works if the enemy
doesn't know where they are, or where they are coming from. For instance if his Fleet is at Earth
and he splits in two to attack from opposite directions, if the Dominion can track his fleet
movements, relay that information, and then have time for their fleet's to reposition (which is not
unlikely as they have a far shorter distance to travel) he would likely end up with the same odds
on two seperate fronts ... and about the same odds of breaking through.

Besides which even if he gets ahead of the Dominion and does get into better position, they need
only retreat their fleet closer to DS9 until his multivector assualt converges. Remember the
Dominion does not have to defend territory or a strategic line ... just a point. As such if they get
flanked, englobed, or anything else interesting they just fall back to that point and fight there.

What Sisko should have done was move the feddie fleet into position and draw the Dominion fleet
away from DS9. Their job is to just keep the dominion busy. Send the *cloaked* Klingon fleet to
DS9 as the dominion will not know where they are coming from, as opposed to having the
Klingons head to battle site.

He was planning to spilt his fleet. Just look at the screen on his wall when he brings the plan to
the war theater commanders on Starbase 375. The Dominion has anti-proton beams on their
ships which can detect cloaked ships moving faster then warp 5, so a cloaked fleet attack would
not have worked. Unless they were traveling slower then warp 6, but if they did, they would not
have made it to DS9 in time.


more later.

You split the fleet when you get there!

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Oh and respond to my earlier post.

[Eleas]

No Trek book is canon, Sparky.

Pathways and Mosaic are both Canon.

Shit, you're right, I forgot. Could you point me the way of the most recent canon policy? I assume they state it there?

[TheDarkling]

http://www.startrek.com/information/faq.asp?ID=1321

As a rule of thumb, the events that take place within the live action episodes and movies are canon, or official Star Trek facts. Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, the Animated Adventures, and the various comic lines are not canon.
There are a couple of exceptions to this rule: the Jeri Taylor penned novels "Mosaic" and "Pathways." Many of the events in these two novels feature background details of the main Star Trek: Voyager characters. (Note: There are a few details from an episode of the Animated Adventures that have entered into the Star Trek canon. The episode "Yesteryear," written by D.C. Fontana, features some biographical background on Spock.)

[Ender]

If the Starfleet is 12,000 NOT counting runabouts, shuttles, and fighters, and since the FKR Alliance fleet was 20,000 capital vessels, are you claiming that the Romulans and Klingons only have 4000 ships each?

Well that just made the debate one hell of a lot easier.

IF on the other hand, runabouts, shuttles and fighters are part of that 12,000, dividing down the fleet just got a lot better for the K & R

[Eleas]

http://www.startrek.com/information/faq.asp?ID=1321

As a rule of thumb, the events that take place within the live action episodes and movies are canon, or official Star Trek facts. Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, the Animated Adventures, and the various comic lines are not canon.
There are a couple of exceptions to this rule: the Jeri Taylor penned novels "Mosaic" and "Pathways." Many of the events in these two novels feature background details of the main Star Trek: Voyager characters. (Note: There are a few details from an episode of the Animated Adventures that have entered into the Star Trek canon. The episode "Yesteryear," written by D.C. Fontana, features some biographical background on Spock.)

Teah, heard about those stories earlier, too. Since no one ever used them for their arguments, I mercifully let them recede into the back passages of my mind, wherever that is.

[Akira]

If the Starfleet is 12,000 NOT counting runabouts, shuttles, and fighters, and since the FKR Alliance fleet was 20,000 capital vessels, are you claiming that the Romulans and Klingons only have 4000 ships each?

Well that just made the debate one hell of a lot easier.

IF on the other hand, runabouts, shuttles and fighters are part of that 12,000, dividing down the fleet just got a lot better for the K & R

Oh yes. Of course. A TOTAL UFP WIDE ship count of 12000 ships.

That 20000 ship number of the Alliance fleet in the last ep of DS9 was the front line ships sent to the attack on Cardassia at the end of the war.

The alliance is not going to send ALL thier ships to one battle. They are not going to send ALL thier ships to the front lines.


Think about it. There are so many shuttles, runabouts and fighters in the UFP that if you were to count them in the 12000 number then Starfleet would have less then -50000 ships. (But you would like that won't you)

Before the Dominion war, Starfleet had 12000 cap ships, the KE had 15000 ships (with about 60% the smaller B'rel and K'vort BoP) and the RSE had 6000 ships (with 70% Warbirds) These numbers are canon from a number of sources and if you apply standand fleet depolyment and info taken right from DS9, it all fits.

[Eleas]

<snip>

Damn, this isn't even funny anymore. It's like debating Darkstar, but without the persistance, intelligence, and attention to detail that made Scooter so famous.

I suppose I might as well wrap it up.

Akira, I know that you can read this. I give you two days to respond to mine and GAT's points, or I will be duty-bound to accept your concession on behalf of both of us.

If you could also dig up some pointers on how to debate, I'd be pleasantly surprised. But I'd understand if you fear that reading them would shatter your brain.

[Ender]

Oh yes. Of course. A TOTAL UFP WIDE ship count of 12000 ships.

That 20000 ship number of the Alliance fleet in the last ep of DS9 was the front line ships sent to the attack on Cardassia at the end of the war.

The alliance is not going to send ALL thier ships to one battle. They are not going to send ALL thier ships to the front lines.

You are the only one I have ever heard claim that they had a combined fleet of more then 20,000 ships. That number has been used by everyone from Lord Edam to E1701.

Think about it. There are so many shuttles, runabouts and fighters in the UFP that if you were to count them in the 12000 number then Starfleet would have less then -50000 ships. (But you would like that won't you)

Factoring the fighters into the count fits all the information far better then your position.

Before the Dominion war, Starfleet had 12000 cap ships, the KE had 15000 ships (with about 60% the smaller B'rel and K'vort BoP) and the RSE had 6000 ships (with 70% Warbirds) These numbers are canon from a number of sources and if you apply standand fleet depolyment and info taken right from DS9, it all fits.

And these sources for these numbers would be? Oh wait, you'll just return with a vague reply, nevermind.

[Tsyroc]

On the topic of Captain Sisko's screw ups I would like to state that he should have smacked more sense into Jake when he was growing up.

The whole schtick about being a reporter and I'm going to stay behind and monitor the "occupation". Way to kick your dad in the nuts and potentially handicap his command. Even if he was certain that he could deal with his son being in danger there's a good possibility that his superiors might question his fitness to be in the prominant post that he ended up being in during the war.

Look at FC, Starfleet didn't want to trust Picard going up against the Borg. It isn't too much of stretch to see them doing the same thing with Sisko in regaurds to Jake.

It just worked out that the Dominion actually lived up to its treaty with Bajor.I would have loved to see Dominion decide that Jake was a spy, torture the crap out of him and then jettison him into space in the general direction of the wormhole.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

If the Starfleet is 12,000 NOT counting runabouts, shuttles, and fighters, and since the FKR Alliance fleet was 20,000 capital vessels, are you claiming that the Romulans and Klingons only have 4000 ships each?

Well that just made the debate one hell of a lot easier.

IF on the other hand, runabouts, shuttles and fighters are part of that 12,000, dividing down the fleet just got a lot better for the K & R

Oh yes. Of course. A TOTAL UFP WIDE ship count of 12000 ships.

Prove it.

That 20000 ship number of the Alliance fleet in the last ep of DS9 was the front line ships sent to the attack on Cardassia at the end of the war.

Prove it.

The alliance is not going to send ALL thier ships to one battle. They are not going to send ALL thier ships to the front lines.


Think about it. There are so many shuttles, runabouts and fighters in the UFP that if you were to count them in the 12000 number then Starfleet would have less then -50000 ships. (But you would like that won't you)

Prove it.

Before the Dominion war, Starfleet had 12000 cap ships,

Prove it.

the KE had 15000 ships (with about 60% the smaller B'rel and K'vort BoP)

Prove it.

and the RSE had 6000 ships (with 70% Warbirds)

Prove it.

These numbers are canon from a number of sources and if you apply standand fleet depolyment and info taken right from DS9, it all fits.

Sources YOU REFUSE TO GIVE!

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Akira if your going to continue to debate like this there's no point. You claim your figures that you state are canon, but refuse to give a source



Also, you have had 3 days to repond to my first post. You have 2 more.
Reposted:

There were 1200 Dominion/Cardassian ships, up to 40% of which were Jem'Hadar ATTACK SHIPS. The Dominion does not have fighters. Those ships are the size of a Defiant.

Wrong. IIRC they were called fighters in "Treachery, Faith and the Great River"

And they are only what? 71 meters. Pathetic.

He has 632 ships + an unknown number of fighters. Fighters are not counted in fleet counts.

How do you know?

Nowhere. It's just something Mike Wong used to try to lower the number of captail ships in the UFP. Starfleet had 12000 Cap ships just before the start of the Dominion war. This count DOES NOT inculde fighters, shuttles, runabouts, tugs, shuttlepods or anything else. (Like member fleets, priv ships etc)

Lies. You take the high end of a NON-CANON quote (8000-12000) and you make up information never stated.


In reality, it's around 4000. They can build 40 ships a year (BOBW) and the ships last about a hundred years.

And yet, the Dominion could only spare 200 ships to attack DS9 with. (and the next ep we see after that is 5 months later)
so the Dominion goes from 200 spare ships for attack fleets, to 15000+ in the space of 5 months with only Cardassian systems to use.

They only needed 200 ships!


Do you understand deploying ships?! If they sent 2000 instead of 200, they need to get those extra 1800 ships from somewhere. And that somewhere will be a lot less defended.

What's better? Taking 200 ships you can afford to send that will win, or sending 2000 ships for pure overkill and most likely leaving somewhere undefended.

So Sisko is going to destoy the most important base in the AQ?
DS9 is the key to the AQ. Who ever controls it controls who can use the wormhole. So if they blast DS9 to hell as soon as the Dominion takes over, then when the UFP recovers the Bajor sector how are they going to base thier ships, control the wormhole and have a front line command base? They would have to biuld a new base.

And know they have given the Dominion a place to base their ships, control the wormhole and have a front line command base. They should have at the very least booby-trapped it.

He did a good job of disabling it. The Dominion had to move resources to fixing the station, which would have delayed their move into UFP space.

And if he actually booby-trapped it, Damar, Dukat, Weyoun and possibly the female changling would be smears on a wall, and the station could have taken out a lot of close ships.


And I doubt the resourcses to repair 1 base slowed their advance