Trade Federation vs. United Federation

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

I'd say the TF would win, as they have more firepower per ship, a high fighter capacity, and more ships. Also, a ship whose weapons can make glancing hits to the royal yacht could easily hit a Federation capital ship.

One TF ship could take out several Fed ships, but enough Fed ships might overpower it.

[consequences]

If its the exact same ship, with the exact same commander, I can make a case for the Federation having a shot, because the idiot will probably try to launch fighters in the middle of a fight he's winning again.

[spaceluigi]

I won't deny that the fight would be a good match, but the TradeFeds wouldn't win unscathed, if they won at all. If there were two evenly sized fleets Trade Federation versus Starfleet, I am compelled to believe Starfleet would win.
Trade Federation ships use lasers and starfighters as their primary weapons. It is assumed that the Trade Federation uses torpedoes on their capital ships, also. Nevertheless, starfighters are little more than cannon fodder, as they could easily be ridden of by the detonation of photon torpedoes in a cluster of fighters. Phasers would also be able to easily hit the fighters. The fighters would be incapable of dodging the phaser shot due to its speed at c (the speed of light). Any fighter attempting to dodge a phaser would need to be 186,000 miles away to have one second of leeway. Despite the uncanny ability to easily shoot down fighters, the Starfleet vessels would need to also shoot at the Trade Fed capital ships. Unfortunately, Federation people are unaware of the concept of defense, and their ships are lightly stocked with weapons. This need to defend from both fighters and capital ships would be the Trade Feds chief advantage.
I'd hate to say it, but it is true that all the weapons used by the Trade Feds are inferior to Starfleets weapons. We are already employing lasers today, there's one in Iraq right now. We're already BEYOND lasers today, using microwave beams and particle beams, which cause either electrical short or physical damage at much less energy cost. The Trade Fed lasers are not the best, but they are not totally ineffecctive. The torpedoes used by the Trade Feds are proton and or concussion types, which use proton warheads (a blast twice the size of the one made by the 4 X-Wing lasers combined, as cited from the Star Wars Weapons and Tech manual) and simple, normal explosive warheads (same size of proton torp blast). The torpedoes would also be minimally useful. Nevertheless, despite the inferiority of the weapons, in large numbers many Starfleet vessels would succumb to the stress on their hulls, and they would become one with space.
The Starfleet vessels would be using photon torpedoes, which in some cases can vaporize entire ships (cited from the TNG tech manual). Photon torpedoes have a tactical range of 15-3,500,000 kilometers, (from the TNG tech manual) where the proton and concussion missiles have an optimum range of 300-700 meters (cited from the SW Weapons and Tech manual).
In my opinion, the only possible way the Trade Feds would win... would be if they reprogrammed their fighters to arm all their torpedoes and suicide into Federation ships, while at the same time doing an Alpha Strike (a simultaneous discharge of all weapons).
Again, I don't think either side would come out a flawless victor.

[spaceluigi]

I forgot to add that the Federation would lose if wimpy commanders like Riker who use phasers instead of torps were at the fleet.

[Thirdfain]

you earned that title in just 25 posts?

[spaceluigi]

*wink*

But let's return to the topic. I was a *bit* of an annoyance. I think it's one of a kind.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

*sigh* Spaceluigi, you're an idiot.

Trade Federation ships use lasers and starfighters as their primary weapons. It is assumed that the Trade Federation uses torpedoes on their capital ships, also. Nevertheless, starfighters are little more than cannon fodder, as they could easily be ridden of by the detonation of photon torpedoes in a cluster of fighters. Phasers would also be able to easily hit the fighters. The fighters would be incapable of dodging the phaser shot due to its speed at c (the speed of light). Any fighter attempting to dodge a phaser would need to be 186,000 miles away to have one second of leeway.

TradeFed ships use turbolasers. Did you even watch TPM? They appear to be light in nature, but a single blast would be well more than enough to destroy a Feddie ship. Fighters carry torpedoes capable of destroying Fed ships in-at most-five to six shots (considering they are "light" torpedoes).
Fighters don't dodge a beam moving at c when its coming towards it. They move before the crosshairs are firmly in sight, or are already in motion when the blast goes off. Feddie accuracy isn't anything to right home about, either. The chances of them hitting them with phasers is slim. Proximity fused torps can be A.) Shot down, B.) Dodged (their yield is unimpressive, as of Nemesis, and fighters move rather quickly), and C.) Feddie ships have demonstrated that they won't fire their torpedoes near their ships because its dangerous. Fighters close in on ships, skimming their shields ect. They'll be too close to be attacked.

I'd hate to say it, but it is true that all the weapons used by the Trade Feds are inferior to Starfleets weapons. We are already employing lasers today, there's one in Iraq right now. We're already BEYOND lasers today, using microwave beams and particle beams, which cause either electrical short or physical damage at much less energy cost. The Trade Fed lasers are not the best, but they are not totally ineffecctive. The torpedoes used by the Trade Feds are proton and or concussion types, which use proton warheads (a blast twice the size of the one made by the 4 X-Wing lasers combined, as cited from the Star Wars Weapons and Tech manual) and simple, normal explosive warheads (same size of proton torp blast). The torpedoes would also be minimally useful. Nevertheless, despite the inferiority of the weapons, in large numbers many Starfleet vessels would succumb to the stress on their hulls, and they would become one with space.

You're a fucking moron, you know that right? TradeFed TURBOLASERS would blow Feddie ships to tiny fucking pieces! You also know that torpedoes have VARIABLE yields? The EGTW&T quote is obviously referring to anti-fighter torps, NOT cap-ship torps. I don't give a damn what lasers they're using in Iraq, they are ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE weaker than SW lasers.

The Starfleet vessels would be using photon torpedoes, which in some cases can vaporize entire ships (cited from the TNG tech manual). Photon torpedoes have a tactical range of 15-3,500,000 kilometers, (from the TNG tech manual) where the proton and concussion missiles have an optimum range of 300-700 meters (cited from the SW Weapons and Tech manual).

The amazing 64 MT (TM, not Nemesis, being generous here) would be harmlessly brushed aside on teh TradeFeds like the Naboo torpodes. Those shields, I might add, can easily absorb GT level attacks with impunity.
Give me one example of Feddie ships targerting anything from 3,500,000km away. I doesn't matter any huge amout, because turbolasers have reached solar sytem spanning ranges, and missles can cross said distance with ease also, in the EU.

Once again spaceluigi, you have showed the entire world your stupidity. Now stand up and say, "I'm proud to be an idiot!"

[spaceluigi]

Well, I'm proud to be intelligent!

GOD YOU GUYS ARE IDIOTS! WE DON'T EVEN FRICKIN' USE CROSSHAIRS TODAY! DAMMIT MAN! WE USE COMPUTERS AND RADAR! JESUS CHRIST, WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK NO FRICKIN' AIR FORCE CAN STAND UP TO THE USA TODAY? GOD ALMIGHTY1 TODAY WE HAVE TARGETING SYSTEMS THAT CAN LOCK ONTO AND FIRE ONTO TARGETS IN LESS THAN A MILLISECOND!

AND WHAT KIND OF AN IDIOT THINKS THAT A FEW TURBOLASERS CAN DESTROY A STARFLEET SHIP? OR STARWARS TORPEDOES? THEY ARE (one word)

[spaceluigi]

Well, I'm proud to be intelligent!

GOD YOU GUYS ARE IDIOTS! WE DON'T EVEN FRICKIN' USE CROSSHAIRS TODAY! DAMMIT MAN! WE USE COMPUTERS AND RADAR! JESUS CHRIST, WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK NO FRICKIN' AIR FORCE CAN STAND UP TO THE USA TODAY? GOD ALMIGHTY1 TODAY WE HAVE TARGETING SYSTEMS THAT CAN LOCK ONTO AND FIRE ONTO TARGETS IN LESS THAN A MILLISECOND!

AND WHAT KIND OF AN IDIOT THINKS THAT A FEW TURBOLASERS CAN DESTROY A STARFLEET SHIP? OR STARWARS TORPEDOES? THEY ARE (one word) SHIT! THEY STILL USE EXPLOSIVE WARHEADS! JESUS, IT WOULD BE A CLOSE BATTLE NOT A ONE SIDED ONE! THE DAMN T FEDS PUT THEIR DAMN PRIMARY REACTORS IN THEIR UNSHIELDED LANDING BAY, THAT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO HIT, AFTER ALL, A USELESS WHINY LOSER OF A KID WHO HAD NEVER FLOWN A DAMN FIGHTER CAN DESTROY A CAPITAL STARSHIP BECAUSE THEY HAD THEIR MAIN REACTOR (conveniently) RIGHT WHERE HE CRASHED? HONESTLY, DOES ANYONE HERE BESIDES WONG HAVE BRAINS?

[Typhonis 1]

And the other memebers of the brotherhood think I`M crazy.

[Darth Fanboy]

You mean he's still here?

Its as if He gets off on being ignored and dismissed as a troll

[Lord of the Farce]

Each Trade Federation Battleships' core (aka Trade Fed Core Ships) has a peak shield capacity of 6e+23 watts, or 600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 watts.
On the other hand, a Federation Proton Torpedo (1.5 kilograms of matter w/ 1.5 kilograms of anti-matter, assuming 100% efficiency) gives you 2.7e+17 joules, or 270,000,000,000,000,000 joules.

To really appreciate the difference, one must divide the Trade Fed Core Ship's shield capacity by the amount of energy from a torpedo...

600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
/
270,000,000,000,000,000

= 2,222,222

Yup, that's right, it would take well over two million proton torpedoes hitting the Trade Fed Core Ship simutaneously to get past the shields and do any damage to the actual ship.

Of course, this completely disregards the possibility that the "ring" part of Trade Fed Battleships carry the real "meat" of the two, and the total shield capacity could be even higher.

[Lord of the Farce]

Why do the idiots always crow about their own supposed intelligence? I mean, if it was really a fact and not just a stupid claim, then it should be obvious without saying.


And just for a laugh, from Wayne Poe's Ultimate Star Wars vs Star Trek FAQ, Starfleet Accuracy!

[Darth Fanboy]

The TF Battleships to me didn't seem to have heavy firepower the way an Acclamator of Star Destroyer had, which made me think this would be more intereesting than the stand imperial vs. Fedeeration battle. But their Shields are more than a match for Fed weapons it still seems.

Also the TF Droid fighters aren't very powerful by SW Standards IIRC, and decent fighters are one of the things that the Empire has plenty of, as well as avg. fighters like your standard TIEs.

[Lord of the Farce]

Even if the Trade Fed droid fighters contribute nothing except for swallowing torps, that's still of some use, since every torp not used against the Trade Fed Battleships means more freedom for each of them to close up and chew up the Federation ships.

On the other hand, the droid fighters in walker mode could work pretty well as anti-personnel terror weapons.

[Ghost Rider]

For the Trade Fed battle the shields alone determine the victor since the Trade Feds can't be knocked down by ST arms...it's like hittting a Rhino with a squirt gun...a Rhino that is shooting BB's at you.

Eventually they will overcome you, well before you overcome it.

[Captain tycho]

*wink*

But let's return to the topic. I was a *bit* of an annoyance. I think it's one of a kind.

A bit?
You are an utter moron with no brains whatsoever...

[Captain tycho]

Well, I'm proud to be intelligent!

GOD YOU GUYS ARE IDIOTS! WE DON'T EVEN FRICKIN' USE CROSSHAIRS TODAY! DAMMIT MAN! WE USE COMPUTERS AND RADAR! JESUS CHRIST, WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK NO FRICKIN' AIR FORCE CAN STAND UP TO THE USA TODAY? GOD ALMIGHTY1 TODAY WE HAVE TARGETING SYSTEMS THAT CAN LOCK ONTO AND FIRE ONTO TARGETS IN LESS THAN A MILLISECOND!

AND WHAT KIND OF AN IDIOT THINKS THAT A FEW TURBOLASERS CAN DESTROY A STARFLEET SHIP? OR STARWARS TORPEDOES? THEY ARE (one word) SHIT! THEY STILL USE EXPLOSIVE WARHEADS! JESUS, IT WOULD BE A CLOSE BATTLE NOT A ONE SIDED ONE! THE DAMN T FEDS PUT THEIR DAMN PRIMARY REACTORS IN THEIR UNSHIELDED LANDING BAY, THAT WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO HIT, AFTER ALL, A USELESS WHINY LOSER OF A KID WHO HAD NEVER FLOWN A DAMN FIGHTER CAN DESTROY A CAPITAL STARSHIP BECAUSE THEY HAD THEIR MAIN REACTOR (conveniently) RIGHT WHERE HE CRASHED? HONESTLY, DOES ANYONE HERE BESIDES WONG HAVE BRAINS?

Wow, is he done?
Hmmm...that's 500 fallacies, all in in 2 paragrphs...how odd.

[Ghost Rider]

*snip mindless blather*

Wow, is he done?
Hmmm...that's 500 fallacies, all in in 2 paragrphs...how odd.

It astounds me he can type in some odd coherent manner.

[Slartibartfast]

*snip massive amounts of stupidity... the goggles, they do nothing...*

*SMACK* shut up bitch! You contribute nothing to debates except idiotic statements like OMG STARWARZ SHIPS USE LAZER WHICH WE ALREADY HAVE HOW RETARDED OMG !!!!111oneoneone

You are truly deserving of the palm-fucker title. I bet you orgasm every time you say "LASER CAN'T PENETRATE". I'll show you how it penetrates, so bend over.

[seanrobertson]

On the E-E verse a squadron of Droid Starfighters, Droid fighters have "energy torpedoes,"so says the EpI ICS. So if these "energy torpedoes" are anywhere near as powerful as normal proton torpedoes, the fighters shouldn't have much trouble with the E-E.

I see. I didn't know that, not having seen the _Ep.I ICS_ in ages. Plus I forget a lot of things

I would ask, do we know that these weapons are designed with an anti-capship function in mind? Given that the droid fighter swarm and a handful of Naboo fighters seemed roughly matched, and we all know that the standard Naboo torpedo seems to be an anti-fighter weapon, how likely is it that the droids were packing very nasty torpedoes ("energy" or small protons)? With their greater numbers, it'd seem very high-yield torpedoes would've given them an advantage that never manifested on the battlefield.

That could be for some other reason than the fact that said torpedoes are "low-yield" but from the standpoint of common sense, it seems insane that the droids wouldn't use high-power weapons if they had them...friendly-fire casualties being, after all, one of their lesser concerns

Anyway, if those were simply anti-fighter level torpedoes, the only win I see the Federation scoring is in E-E vs. a Droid Fighter squadron. And even then, it is actually possible for the E-E to go down...it always depends very heavily on how you rate the E's shields which, IMO, is highly arguable.

But I wanted to throw the Feds a small bone, I guess

And in my last post, WRT Maul kicking the KHC's ass, I said:

Yeah, I think probably so. Consider that two Jedi were able to take on dozens of droids at once. Klingons might have a little more initiate than droids...but that's their undoing.

Damn it. I meant "initiative"!

But I digress.

We all know a donut TF battleship, with its core, probably has shield power in excess of the core's shields alone. There *were*, after all, additional reactors in the donut section...we saw them in TPM!

However, if the Federation is only against one droid control ship, how long can that ship likely keep its shields going? I have a partial list of _Ep. 2 ICS_ figures, but I can't find the range for a core ship...a few hundred thousand ly.

I have a couple of ideas based off of that, but I want to run my premises by you guys for some good criticism first. I'm leaning in one direction, but those premises are based on some guesses and probably bad recollection. The range of the ship would be a good starting place I suppose.

Thanks much.

[Lord Pounder]

Oh my fucking sweet maker. Luigi is back, and it learned to type, kinda. God damn it man i read every thing you just spouted and i'm dumber for having read it. Don't let the door hit ya where the creater split ya.

[JodoForce]

What I find most incredible is how he can come back here with that name on top of his head.

AFTER ALL, A USELESS WHINY LOSER OF A KID WHO HAD NEVER FLOWN A DAMN FIGHTER CAN DESTROY A CAPITAL STARSHIP BECAUSE THEY HAD THEIR MAIN REACTOR (conveniently) RIGHT WHERE HE CRASHED?

He made this up right? I only saw TPM once when it first came out and have bacially forgotten everything

HONESTLY, DOES ANYONE HERE BESIDES WONG HAVE BRAINS?

Does that mean he thinks Wong would agree with him?

[seanrobertson]

Well, I've done a little number crunching this afternoon outta sheer boredom, but I need to know a few things before I can really go forward.

First, what's the relationship between a shield's strength and its power requirements? Does a one billion terawatt-resistant shield require that much power to run/raise, or do we simply not know?

Second, can shields be run at less than optimum power? I know certain screens can be "angled," but if you were worried about running out of energy, could you operate shields at lower power (which in this context, would still keep the TF ship safe)?

Third, do we have any idea how much power the "donut" portion of a TF ship might contribute to its total output? From the work I've done, I've determined that the core ship alone can store 2.5E29J of fuel, operating under the assumption that it has a range similar to an Acclamator; i.e., 250,000 light years.

If it has a higher range, it can carry even more fuel, not to mention what the donut could contribute.

So I ask because we're getting to a level at which significantly greater fuel becomes somewhat incredible, even for Star Wars.

Fourth, am I right in guessing that a class 0.6 hyperdrive is capable of about 92.6 million c (if we assume the Falcon is in fact limited to about 100 mil. c, which is not an overly generous figure itself)?

I looked and looked for a way to determine how to measure the speeds of different hyperdrives, and this website was all I could come up with:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/ ... drive.html

I ignored the junk about taking 6 hours to cross a single sector, but I used the ratio for a class .5 to a .6.


I ask all these things because I was trying to find out if a TF control ship might simply run out of fuel if it kept its shields at maximum for days on end (while, of course, Starfleet had ships trickle into the TF-held system for days and weeks on end).

I determined the following:

If a control ship had to keep its shields "all the way up," so to speak, and if a shield consumes an amount of power directly ratioed to its actual strength, the TF ship could stay fully shielded for roughly five days (118.5 hours to be more precise).

This would be in the event that the TF ship was faced with almost constant attacks from Starfleet ships coming from surrounding systems and sectors. It also assumes the ship's commander is dumb enough to not simply drop shields when a threat is not detected, though any Klingon involvement (read: cloaked ship attacks) might make him reconsider.

If, however, the TF ship could simply adjust its shield power to a level simply sufficient to keep it safe from any likely attack, I estimate it could adjust its output to about a million TW (1E18W). This is because Starfleet task forces will probably not exceed 20 ships in most cases, and I figure that the most a 20 ship fleet could muster--with an average ship possessing less than half the maximum firepower of a Galaxy--would be about 140,000 TW (ask me for a break-down of this if you're interested, but as I said, that's maximum, assuming large torpedo spreads; but over time, that hypothetical fleet could sustain probably no more than 7.5 megatons/sec., or 31,000 TW).

(Please note: even if the fleet was directing ten times that, the TF's shields would still keep it very, very safe at 1E18W.)

Anyway, barring the few times the Federation and/or Klingons muster a fleet of hundreds or more ships to fight, the TF ship would be safe operating with that shield output, right?

Well, divide 2.5E29J by 1E18W

By my figures, the TF's fuel would not be exhausted for some 2.5 trillion seconds...or over 79,000 YEARS.

I probably made a math mistake somewhere, but this just goes to show you, subjective comparisons like "an entire fleet vs. one ship" beg us to re-examine things with some hard figures. Initially I thought, "A single donut against the entire Federation fleet? Maybe it'd have a chance, but she'd run out of gas first."

Well, maybe NOT LOL.

[seanrobertson]

I won't deny that the fight would be a good match, but the TradeFeds wouldn't win unscathed, if they won at all. If there were two evenly sized fleets Trade Federation versus Starfleet, I am compelled to believe Starfleet would win.

With even numbers, you think they'd be about evenly matched?

Okay Weegie... That's super!

Trade Federation ships use lasers and starfighters as their primary weapons. It is assumed that the Trade Federation uses torpedoes on their capital ships, also. Nevertheless, starfighters are little more than cannon fodder, as they could easily be ridden of by the detonation of photon torpedoes in a cluster of fighters.

If you're not simply trolling (and yes, that's a rhetorical question), tell me the range at which fighters typically engage capships.

Then remind me what photon torpedoes do when they're detonated near the firing ship.

Phasers would also be able to easily hit the fighters. The fighters would be incapable of dodging the phaser shot due to its speed at c (the speed of light).

Phasers don't move at the speed of light. If they did, even in examples like "The Die Is Cast," we wouldn't be able to track disruptors and Cardassian phasers/disruptors as they were shooting at the Founder homeworld. (But we could. Oops.)

Or you could note that phasers are actually particle beams, capable of carrying a number of things that have mass (even if insignificant, like nanoprobes).

Moving any mass at light speed requires infinite energy AFAIK. Starfleet ships don't have infinite energy (the universe doesn't have INFINITE E); therefore, they ain't moving at c even if you claim they have a component invisible to the naked eye.

Besides, if you're claiming the TF ships have lasers...you should know something of how quickly a laser propagates. And fighters CAN dodge those "lasers." So they move FTL?

Do you really want to go down that path?

...

......?

I thought not Good boy!

Any fighter attempting to dodge a phaser would need to be 186,000 miles away to have one second of leeway.

More than a second, since phasers:

1--don't propagate at lightspeed;
2--don't have that kind of effective range.

Despite the uncanny ability to easily shoot down fighters, the Starfleet vessels would need to also shoot at the Trade Fed capital ships.

It might help, since by your own admission that's where all their firepower would be.

Unfortunately, Federation people are unaware of the concept of defense, and their ships are lightly stocked with weapons. This need to defend from both fighters and capital ships would be the Trade Feds chief advantage.

Demonstrate that they're ignorant of the "concept of defense."

That simply makes no sense. What are shields for?

Hell, even Riker understands something of "defense." If all of the people in the Federation had no grasp of the concept, there would be no shields, no running away from a dangerous foe.

I'd hate to say it, but it is true that all the weapons used by the Trade Feds are inferior to Starfleets weapons.

Oh, I'm sure it pains you.

How it pains me to do this!

Waaaait...I still fun-ction!

Wanna bet?

Ah, shit. You're too young to know the reference--my bad.

We are already employing lasers today, there's one in Iraq right now. We're already BEYOND lasers today, using microwave beams and particle beams,

LOL.

Man, if you're gonna troll, at least make your shit somewhat believable.

We do have lasers today. They are not powerful enough to replace anti-tank weapons, which are in the low megajoule range.

Fighter-sized "lasers" in Star Wars--which are not actually lasers--are in the terawatt range. Some ships that would easily be classified as "fighters" in Star Trek have many times the firepower of a small Federation fleet; e.g., Slave One's seismic charges.

The Starfleet vessels would be using photon torpedoes, which in some cases can vaporize entire ships (cited from the TNG tech manual). Photon torpedoes have a tactical range of 15-3,500,000 kilometers, (from the TNG tech manual) where the proton and concussion missiles have an optimum range of 300-700 meters (cited from the SW Weapons and Tech manual).

The _TNG TM_ is not even an official source. Do not use it for these..."debates."

In my opinion, the only possible way the Trade Feds would win... would be if they reprogrammed their fighters to arm all their torpedoes and suicide into Federation ships, while at the same time doing an Alpha Strike (a simultaneous discharge of all weapons).
Again, I don't think either side would come out a flawless victor.

Maybe you should take a look at my last post, then.

And yeah, guys, I know Weege is just trolling, having fun pulling people's chains. On the one hand, I shouldn't feed him--none of us should. On the other, if he wasn't such a coward and he stuck around for awhile, it'd be fun to get him mad enough that he'd blow a gasket and get himself banned.

But sorry Weegie. You're incapable of ranking me off, ace