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[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Not to mention people don't usually throw in insults and such in such webpages.

Perhaps I've been reading Wong's site too much.

Provide an example other then the hatemails (which is a record of e-mails)

[TheDarkling]

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWbd0.html Darkstars take on BDZ.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The scaling to HTLs, BDZs...

C - A - N - O - N. That's what we're looking for, here.

Don't start that...


Anyways, HTLs are canon.

[DarkStar]

1. Wong inputs 5000 meters diameter into his calculator, despite the fact that the asteroid has more volume than a 5000-meter sphere.

Prove it.

Did you look at the picture? Did you happen to recall that the episode doesn't show the Enterprise with plenty of maneuvering room, but instead undergoing a very tight squeeze, especially the further into the asteroid they travelled?

2. By "destroy", it is inferred by Warsies that Riker simply meant "fragment into chunks no larger than 10 meters", as per Wong's explanation of his fragmentation calculator. It is also inferred that these torpedoes will be buried. An Oberth Class starship is significantly larger than 10 meters, true . . . but it is also going to take more energy to ensure that the ship, and the technology it contains, is destroyed.

Prove it.

Prove what? That breaking an asteroid that contains a starship into 10m chunks will leave shipboard technology (or pieces thereof) in existence? The purpose is to destroy the Pegasus . . . the method is the destruction of the asteroid that contains it. The method must allow you to achieve the purpose.

Not to mention the fact that Warsies commonly claim that photon torpedoes are wasteful, omnidirectional-blast weapons. That will also drive up the figures substantially, if true.

Unless the dug into the asteroid[/quote]

And, praytell, what makes you think that the torpedoes were going to be rigged to dig into "solid rock", as per the description of the asteroid in the episode? Your pre-existing bias that torpedoes are weak is not sufficient.

[DarkStar]

Don't start that...

Then don't use non-canon to bitch about a page and a paragraph that specifically refers to canon-only data.

I quote:

"Rabid Warsies will undoubtedly sneer at the 100 megaton figure, given that it compares rather unfavorably to the 200 gigaton turbolasers of the Star Wars non-canon. However, they ignore the simple fact that we have never seen anything even remotely approaching 200 gigatons out of any Star Wars weapon, save the Death Star, in the real story of Star Wars (the canon)."

What part of "canon" didn't you understand?

[DarkStar]

Provide an example other then the hatemails (which is a record of e-mails)

Oh, I don't know . . . "Federation cultist" comes to mind, and that is strewn all over Wong's pages. That's hardly worse than the term "Rabid Warsie" which I used on that page, and which Isil'Zha chided me for.

[Master of Ossus]

Unless the dug into the asteroid

And, praytell, what makes you think that the torpedoes were going to be rigged to dig into "solid rock", as per the description of the asteroid in the episode? Your pre-existing bias that torpedoes are weak is not sufficient.

A torpedo in WoK went straight THROUGH the Enterprise's saucer section. Clearly torpedoes have at least a nominal ability to punch through metal, and by extension, rock.

I know I said I didn't care about this guy, but I'll help out if he starts spouting crap, again. His recent threads appeared to be reasonable, but his updated website proves he hasn't changed.[/quote]

[Master of Ossus]

Don't start that...

Then don't use non-canon to bitch about a page and a paragraph that specifically refers to canon-only data.

That's crap. You happily spouted non-canon SW.com information on your site. Your statements that you only use canon are a facade, and a cowardly attempt to avoid criticism by deflecting it. Answer his points or take out all references to non-canon on your website, Scooter.

[DarkStar]

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWbd0.html Darkstars take on BDZ.

Actually, I left out "system bombards" on that page. I'll revise it shortly.

[DarkStar]

A torpedo in WoK went straight THROUGH the Enterprise's saucer section. Clearly torpedoes have at least a nominal ability to punch through metal, and by extension, rock.

WTF?

I assume you refer to the Klingon torpedo in Star Trek VI, which blasted a hole in the saucer section at its thinnest point. However, there is no evidence that the torpedo itself survived the trip.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Is there any reason torpedoes can't penetrate rock? They can go into a sun (gah, episode with the guy who is supposed to commit suicide, fucked up sun with 30 years and still using hydrogen)



And it would cut torpedo needs in half.

[TheDarkling]

Arent probes of similar construction to torps? and didnt probes get blasted into a planet which housed Datas friend when her planet was falling apart.

We also know that torps have shields and so ramming into rock seems possible, although Im not sure what shield power that would require - anyone can to guess?

[DarkStar]

That's crap. You happily spouted non-canon SW.com information on your site.

Not in the place of canon information.

Your statements that you only use canon are a facade, and a cowardly attempt to avoid criticism by deflecting it.

I only argue against the canon, because as the real story of Star Wars, that is all there is to argue against.

I do include arguments against Warsie mumbo-jumbo . . . some is based on the non-canon, such as can be found on my neutronium page . . . some is based on canon, such as the Millenium Falcon acceleration page, the Death Star superlaser page, et cetera. Warsie mumbo-jumbo is Warsie mumbo-jumbo, no matter where it comes from.

In reality, it is true that I need not include arguments against non-canon Warsie mumbo-jumbo. All I need to do is say "that isn't canon", and be done with it. However, I believe it is helpful . . . not only as a demonstration of common Warsie argument styles, but also to debunk Warsie arguments from within.

What I have found amusing are the myriad cases where strictly-canon elements of my page are argued against with the non-canon BS. This is one such example, and it is not improper in the slightest for me to point out that he's ignoring the canon context.

Now, if he were arguing against my neutronium or BDZ pages with some non-canon reference and I suddenly said "well, that isn't canon" ( referring to his reference . . . as opposed to "well, the entire concept isn't canon anyway"), you might have a basis for your whining.

As it stands, though, you're just whining.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Arent probes of similar construction to torps? and didnt probes get blasted into a planet which housed Datas friend when her planet was falling apart.

We also know that torps have shields and so ramming into rock seems possible, although Im not sure what shield power that would require - anyone can to guess?

At low speeds, not much I'd think

[TheDarkling]

Hmm standard speed for torps? I have heard 0.75 c but Im not sure of those calcs anyone else gotanything on the subject.

[SirNitram]

Hmm standard speed for torps? I have heard 0.75 c but Im not sure of those calcs anyone else gotanything on the subject.

More like 300m/s, relative to launcher.

[TheDarkling]

We can work out what speed those torps were going at assuming the Ent-D was in standard orbit and how long it takes them to reach the surface, ill dig out the tape.

[SPOOFE]

Not in the place of canon information.

Well, you know what George Lucas says, don'tcha, Darkstar? That the EU intrudes in between the movies? That when we lack canon information, we turn towards the official? That's kinda what Lucasfilm's policy has been since day one...

[TheDarkling]

35,786 Km /8 Sec gives us 4473 Km/s.

Thats assuming Geosynchronous orbit of course .

Im also assuming that the target areas are directly beneath the enterprise which isnt correct since the torps hit on multiple parts of the planets but it gives a low end.

[Isil`Zha]

Provide an example other then the hatemails (which is a record of e-mails)

Oh, I don't know . . . "Federation cultist" comes to mind, and that is strewn all over Wong's pages. That's hardly worse than the term "Rabid Warsie" which I used on that page, and which Isil'Zha chided me for.

I was refering to how you said that "if they don't see it my way they're idiots"

[DarkStar]

Arent probes of similar construction to torps? and didnt probes get blasted into a planet which housed Datas friend when her planet was falling apart.

Sarjenka's planet, and yes, burrowing occurred. I'm not sure if they were torpedoes or probes, nor am I certain if they were specially outfitted devices. As I recall, though, there was a landing followed by burrowing.

We also know that torps have shields and so ramming into rock seems possible, although Im not sure what shield power that would require - anyone can to guess?

We've never seen a shielded object ram straight through a solid object like that.

[SirNitram]

35,786 Km /8 Sec gives us 4473 Km/s.

Thats assuming Geosynchronous orbit of course .

Im also assuming that the target areas are directly beneath the enterprise which isnt correct since the torps hit on multiple parts of the planets but it gives a low end.

Not bad. The only problem is it doesn't match up with other examples. It's probably that bombardment shots move faster, much like the huge planetary ion cannon's shots.

[DarkStar]

Not in the place of canon information.

Well, you know what George Lucas says, don'tcha, Darkstar? That the EU intrudes in between the movies? That when we lack canon information, we turn towards the official? That's kinda what Lucasfilm's policy has been since day one...

They intrude in the time periods, but you know what George Lucas says, don'tcha, Spoofe? The EU occurs in a parallel universe.

[SirNitram]

Not in the place of canon information.

Well, you know what George Lucas says, don'tcha, Darkstar? That the EU intrudes in between the movies? That when we lack canon information, we turn towards the official? That's kinda what Lucasfilm's policy has been since day one...

They intrude in the time periods, but you know what George Lucas says, don'tcha, Spoofe? The EU occurs in a parallel universe.

When it contradicts. Never anytime else.

Of course, that misinterpretation is the only way you can ever hope to win a debate, so you'll cling to it.

[DarkStar]

Provide an example other then the hatemails (which is a record of e-mails)

Oh, I don't know . . . "Federation cultist" comes to mind, and that is strewn all over Wong's pages. That's hardly worse than the term "Rabid Warsie" which I used on that page, and which Isil'Zha chided me for.

I was refering to how you said that "if they don't see it my way they're idiots"

No, I simply said that Rabid Warsies would sneer, for the reasons provided. If I seemed to suggest that they were idiots for doing so . . . well, I already thought they usually display idiocy, so that's hardly where that comment was headed. People who are not Rabid Warsies could sneer, and various people could sneer for whatever reasons.

In any event, I was not saying "disagree with me, and you're a fool", or anything to that effect.