Declawing cats..

[fgalkin]

I say chop their goddamned paws off and throw the baby out with the bathwater. I hate cats.

STFU, dumbass.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Queeb Salaron]

For fuck's sake, what's with all the damned cat fans? Look, I own two gorgeous golden retrievers, and I adore them. But I've never thought twice about clipping their claws. It's not as if my dogs are going out hunting on the weekends, nor am I planning to set them loose on an icy slope where the added traction would do them good. No. I let them frolick in the snow and chase frizbees. They're relatively big dogs, and the little girls in my neighborhood could get hurt if my dogs were to playfully jump on or paw at them. I don't consider it disarming them to take their claws away. That sounds like something you'd hear from PETA activists.

Maybe it's different for cats, but I certainly don't see how. If you really NEED them to kill mice, then I suppose them having their claws is a good thing. Otherwise, they get their food from a can. They don't have to kill it. Why keep the claws?

[fgalkin]

For fuck's sake, what's with all the damned cat fans? Look, I own two gorgeous golden retrievers, and I adore them. But I've never thought twice about clipping their claws. It's not as if my dogs are going out hunting on the weekends, nor am I planning to set them loose on an icy slope where the added traction would do them good. No. I let them frolick in the snow and chase frizbees. They're relatively big dogs, and the little girls in my neighborhood could get hurt if my dogs were to playfully jump on or paw at them. I don't consider it disarming them to take their claws away. That sounds like something you'd hear from PETA activists.

Maybe it's different for cats, but I certainly don't see how. If you really NEED them to kill mice, then I suppose them having their claws is a good thing. Otherwise, they get their food from a can. They don't have to kill it. Why keep the claws?

When your dog climbs a tree, we will talk about the usefullness of claws.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Queeb Salaron]

But is it necessary for cats to climb trees?

[fgalkin]

But is it necessary for cats to climb trees?

No, since everyone knows that the only thing cats do is eat, sleep and shit.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Kuroneko]

For fuck's sake, what's with all the damned cat fans? Look, I own two gorgeous golden retrievers, and I adore them. But I've never thought twice about clipping their claws...

Personally, I would not clip my cats' claws either, but that issue is of little relevance here. You do realize the difference between trimming your nails and removing them, right?

[Queeb Salaron]

Yes, obviously. And I would do it in a heartbeat. Hell, if I could afford it, I'd go and have it done to my two dogs right now. I have no reservations about it. To me, the only thing a dog's claws are good for are scratching the fuck out of your legs when they jump on you, and tearing apart furniture. And for domesticated cats, it's not much more than that, climbing trees aside. But so the cat can't climb trees. So what? In my case, it would be better to have a cat who can't climb trees than a cat who rips apart my furniture and could claw at the little girls in my neighborhood with they pick the cat up the wrong way. The way I see it, it's either property damage or a law suit waiting to happen, and neither is good. And if the cat can't climb trees ever again, well... That's just too bad. It happens.

We have to realize that the point of domesticating animals is to make them into posessions. Yes, they're companions, and they're friendly most of the time, and they're good company, and damn are they cute. But the definition of a domesticated animal is one that is non-intrusive to normal human life. And when an animal starts ripping apart my furniture or clawing at my neighbors, that's pretty damned intrusive. It defeats the purpose of domestication altogether. Hell, if you're going to keep the claws on them, why not just adopt a REAL wild cat, like a leopard or a lion? THEN tell me that declawing is a bad idea.

[fgalkin]

Yes, obviously. And I would do it in a heartbeat. Hell, if I could afford it, I'd go and have it done to my two dogs right now. I have no reservations about it. To me, the only thing a dog's claws are good for are scratching the fuck out of your legs when they jump on you, and tearing apart furniture. And for domesticated cats, it's not much more than that, climbing trees aside. But so the cat can't climb trees. So what? In my case, it would be better to have a cat who can't climb trees than a cat who rips apart my furniture and could claw at the little girls in my neighborhood with they pick the cat up the wrong way. The way I see it, it's either property damage or a law suit waiting to happen, and neither is good. And if the cat can't climb trees ever again, well... That's just too bad. It happens.

We have to realize that the point of domesticating animals is to make them into posessions. Yes, they're companions, and they're friendly most of the time, and they're good company, and damn are they cute. But the definition of a domesticated animal is one that is non-intrusive to normal human life. And when an animal starts ripping apart my furniture or clawing at my neighbors, that's pretty damned intrusive. It defeats the purpose of domestication altogether. Hell, if you're going to keep the claws on them, why not just adopt a REAL wild cat, like a leopard or a lion? THEN tell me that declawing is a bad idea.

You do, of course, realize that not all cats attack children and scratch furnitutre.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Yes, obviously. And I would do it in a heartbeat. Hell, if I could afford it, I'd go and have it done to my two dogs right now. I have no reservations about it. To me, the only thing a dog's claws are good for are scratching the fuck out of your legs when they jump on you, and tearing apart furniture. And for domesticated cats, it's not much more than that, climbing trees aside. But so the cat can't climb trees. So what? In my case, it would be better to have a cat who can't climb trees than a cat who rips apart my furniture and could claw at the little girls in my neighborhood with they pick the cat up the wrong way. The way I see it, it's either property damage or a law suit waiting to happen, and neither is good. And if the cat can't climb trees ever again, well... That's just too bad. It happens.

We have to realize that the point of domesticating animals is to make them into posessions. Yes, they're companions, and they're friendly most of the time, and they're good company, and damn are they cute. But the definition of a domesticated animal is one that is non-intrusive to normal human life. And when an animal starts ripping apart my furniture or clawing at my neighbors, that's pretty damned intrusive. It defeats the purpose of domestication altogether. Hell, if you're going to keep the claws on them, why not just adopt a REAL wild cat, like a leopard or a lion? THEN tell me that declawing is a bad idea.

Owning a cat is a different proposition from owning a dog, obviously. These animals, in my experience, have fundamentally different psychologies.

Dogs have been used primarily as hunting devices; their role as companions is secondary. This, IMHO, has produced a more psychologically dependent animal.

Cats, on the other hand, serve no useful human purpose, except perhaps as four-legged exterminators. Since humans historically do not eat what cats kill (if for no other reason than the cat eats it first) the relationship between humans and cats is closer to a peer or parent/child relationship in the more dependent cases.

Thus, dogs, on average, are more dependent on their human owner than cats, who seem to exhibit a diametrically opposite attitude. Your dog is a child, your cat is your tenant (or landlord, if we may be so bold as to ascribe motivations to the cat.)

[Kuroneko]

We have to realize that the point of domesticating animals is to make them into posessions.

While I like eating meat (no PETA for me, thank you), I refuse to accept such an extreme position. Some things should not be done to animals; you can do as you like to, say, a book that you own, but applying the same standard to animals would permit incredible cruelties. (Not to imply that declawing is quite on the same level, I'm merely objecting the validity of this justification.)

Hell, if you're going to keep the claws on them, why not just adopt a REAL wild cat, like a leopard or a lion? THEN tell me that declawing is a bad idea.

Sure, I had a bobcat once (it died of old age, at least eighteen years). The cat wasn't big compared to leopards and lions, but it was a wild cat large enough to be mistaken for a dog by many a person before they got a good look at him. And yes, declawing is a bad idea.

[Kuroneko]

Thus, dogs, on average, are more dependent on their human owner than cats, who seem to exhibit a diametrically opposite attitude. Your dog is a child, your cat is your tenant (or landlord, if we may be so bold as to ascribe motivations to the cat.)

Indeed. "Dogs have owners. Cats have staff."

[Queeb Salaron]

I'll have to concede to the points you all made. I'm just not a fan of cats at all, and therefore have never really studied the psychology that is tacked to the responsibility of owning one. That being said, I suppose my theories on domesticated animals need a bit of revision.

Till later...

[Tsyroc]

Spaying/neutering doesn't endanger the life of the cat.

I don't see declawing as significantly endangering a cat's life. There are plenty of other pets that don't have front claws that are in the same boat or worse than a cat whose had it's front claws removed. Smaller sized dogs particularly come to mind. In those cases it is up to the owner to look after the safety of their pet. I will agree that a clawed cat would have a better chance of saving it's own ass if attacked but it's not like cat's with claws never get killed.

By the way, even though I don't like the comment about getting de-knuckled it still convinced me that if I ever got a cat I would not be getting it declawed.

I don't know how to respond to that.

Well, I still don't like or completely buy the knuckel parallel but some people believe it so it might be true. Plus, many people here have pointed out that you can train your cat and/or cut the cat's nails so the claws aren't much of a problem. I don't like the idea of cutting off the body parts of animals for my personal conveinence, especially if it's solely so I can be neglectful towards my pet's needs. Besides, cats are cooler with their claws.

Incidently I'm against having tails bobbed or ears cropped on dogs. I think cosmetic stuff like that is even more cruel and unecessary.

The removal of dew claws on dogs is something I'm uncertain off. It doesn't seem to cause any problems to remove them and they do tend to get caught on a lot stuff....

[Queeb Salaron]

The removal of dew claws on dogs is something I'm uncertain off. It doesn't seem to cause any problems to remove them and they do tend to get caught on a lot stuff....

Yeah, for dogs, nails are more of a concern than anything. They're just large enough so that they can split and bleed and get infected, imparing the dog's ability to walk. The problem is, though, that if you trim them, they grow back faster and thicker, like their coat. So it's either cut them every week, or else remove them. And again, had I the money...

[His Divine Shadow]

I say chop their goddamned paws off and throw the baby out with the bathwater. I hate cats.

Then what the fuck are you doing in this thread you fucking retard?

[His Divine Shadow]

For fuck's sake, what's with all the damned cat fans?

For fucks sake, what is it with all the mental incompetents bursting into a thread spewing their irrational dislike for a species?

Just piss of you worthless hatfucker

[NecronLord]

I had a cat with claws for ten years as a kid. He scratched me once. Sane cats don't attack children.

[Edi]

Yeah, for dogs, nails are more of a concern than anything. They're just large enough so that they can split and bleed and get infected, imparing the dog's ability to walk. The problem is, though, that if you trim them, they grow back faster and thicker, like their coat. So it's either cut them every week, or else remove them. And again, had I the money...

Splitting and bleeding, is that on hard surfaces like floors or asphalt? Because when you look at the natural environment canines evolved in, it's typically something with soft ground, plains, forest etc, where when the nails just sink into the surface enough that they don't split, and they leave a mark. In that environment they offer better traction and control and protect the tips of the toes from accidental injuries. Have you ever clipped your own nails too short? It's fucking painful to touch almost anything for a couple of days when that happens. Those nails are there for a very good reason, both for humans and dogs.

That we choose to keep dogs (or cats or any other animals) in an environment that is not natural for them, places a responsibility on us, the responsibility to take care of them. If that means clipping their nails every once in a while, then that's the price for it. People who would have their pets mutilated for their convenience so that they don't have to do something that takes about five minutes once every two weeks (and dog nails are easier to clip than cat nails) have no fucking business keeping any pets at all.

Sure, declawing the animal is not illegal, but doing so is still an indication of fucked up values.

As for the previous arguments about neighborhood children getting scratched or bitten by cats that have not been declawed, there's only one thing I will say: Boo-fucking-hoo!
Maybe the kids' parents should get their heads out of their asses, get a fucking clue and take some responsibility. I've always liked animals of all types, especially the furry, cuddly ones like dogs and cats. My parents always stressed to me that you do not go and pet strange dogs or cats without permission from the owner, period. The reason was because we might have gooten bit, and it'd have been our fault, not that of the animal. Children need to be taught early on that unfamiliar animals might bite or scratch, because they don't necessarily like being touched, petted or held. Even the most stubborn ones learn that lesson permanently the first time it happens. As the kids get older, they learn what you can and can't do with animals. How to approach, how to behave around them that they don't get upset/scared and consequently bite. Suing the owner of the cat is just trying to dodge your own neglect of responsibility (to teach the kids on what to do/not to do), and if you hadn't neglected that, then it's the kid's fault. Plain and simple.

I've never had a problem with animals, even animals that were considered dangerous. My god-mother's first dog (back when I was about three or four) was a cranky one that didn't like children, yet she never bit me. I remember my parents telling me to be careful and not being mean to her (pulling hair or something like that, I just petted her). There were also half-feral cats at a farm near our summer cottage for years and we often brought them fish. Some of them were friendly and liked being petted (some of the time anyway), some shied away and bit and scratched you if you insisted, and some would swat you after a while. You learned which ones acted which way, and acted accordingly yourself. Our own two cats never bite or scratch unless they play with you, and then they don't do anything seriously. Well, the other one has bitten me (not hard, just to show annoyance) once when he didn't like getting his nails clipped, but he got instant chastisement for that, and he also sometimes nips at your cheek or neck if he feels affectionate, but actual biting or scratching for real harm, never.
Our rabbits (we've had seven down the years) have also been an interesting study, in that some of them were pretty aggressive if you annoyed or scared them, they'd bite and claw at you, and rabbits can inflict quite serious bite wounds while they're at it too. Some would only bite if they couldn't get away and they felt they were in mortal danger (I do not recommend volunteering to force-feed a rabbit an antibiotic that smells anti-septic, it can result in literally having pieces of you being bitten off), some never, and one of them would actually attack right off the bat if she didn't want to be disturbed.
My best friend's dog (Belgian shepherd, Groenendahl variety) is another cranky one (because he's always been a bit insecure), he doesn't like strangers at all and if you go up to him and stretch your hand forth to touch him, he'll tear it off at the wrist. He behaves well when taken on walks, as long as people don't come right on top of him, no problems. He accepts new people, but it takes time and it's a pretty delicate process, but when it's done you're part of the pack and woe to any stranger who tries to mess with you when the dog's around. Obviously my friend and his family are always very careful to keep the dog under supervision whenever they have guests around.
Another friend of mine has a cat who will only let her handle herself. Anybody else tries to touch her, and the claws come out, because she was abused when she was a kitten. She let me pet her, though, because I was patient, non-threatening and drew away the instant she showed displeasure. Took about five minutes to convince the cat that I was friendly. Of course (my friend was throwing a party at the time), some jerk friends of hers had to ruin it and poke the cat, annoying her just for laughs, but before that she didn't attack me if I didn't do anything she found uncomfortable.

The object lesson in all of these anecdotes is that animals are not humans, and cannot be expected to behave exactly like humans, and therefore it's important to learn the differences between individual animals and different sorts of animals and act accordingly. People must take responsibility for their pets, and for their own actions when interacting with animals, and exercise restraint and caution when coming into contact with unfamiliar animals. If you don't do that and get hurt, it's your own fault you got injured in the first place (notwithstanding cases where e.g. a runaway dog just attacks people).

Many of the arguments in favor of declawing cats and other sort of procedures like this (to say nothing of cosmetic alterations like bobbing tails or cropping ears) are nothing but lazy people whining about having to actually take responsibility, because it interferes with their convenience. Most of the ones that I've seen anyway, since barring an actual medical reason, I can't think of any good ones. And I know people who actually have small children and breed cats too. Funny how they're not complaining how the cats are so much trouble...

Edi

[XPViking]

Queen Salaron,

I think you should have your fingernails removed. After all, it's for my convenience, not yours.

XPViking

[Death from the Sea]

Around here cats that go outside on a regular basis might as well ring the dinner bell for the coyotes. Claws or no claws. The local humane society won't let you adopt a cat if you tell them you intend to let it go outside. They even have statitistics on how much shorter the lifespan is of outside cats. IIRC outside cats live around 6-7 years, which is probably about half of what can be expected from an indoor cat.

Where do you live that makes outside cats die in 6-7 years. I have had the same cat living in the garage/barn for 13 close to 14 years and he is still killing field mice.

[His Divine Shadow]

Where do you live that makes outside cats die in 6-7 years. I have had the same cat living in the garage/barn for 13 close to 14 years and he is still killing field mice.

It is sentimental evidence though, even though our neighbor has a cat(male) that I think might be 16-17 now.

[Tsyroc]

Where do you live that makes outside cats die in 6-7 years. I have had the same cat living in the garage/barn for 13 close to 14 years and he is still killing field mice.

Tucson, Arizona. Apparently cat's that are outside on their own a lot tend to get hit by cars or eaten by coyotes. Tucson is set up with a lot of areas that coyotes can travel through the city pretty easily. Dry river beds and washes, golf courses etc... Plus most of the city is pretty spread out so there's places for the coyotes to live even within the city limits.

I will say that I have seen some very old cats that have lived just fine being nearly exclusively outside cats but they're generally the smart/tough/lucky ones.

[LordShaithis]

My cat is a placid bag of meat that spends it's few periods of activity dragging it's clawless paws against either the surface of a chair or the dog's face. The one time it managed to sneak outside, it ran under a bush and cried until someone came and got it, since when it hasn't shown any interest in going out again. It's chances of having to fight off wild animals or climb trees are nil. Thus, it being declawed makes sense.

I mean jeez, it's an animal. If you lived in a different culture, you'd probably eat it.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

My cat is a placid bag of meat that spends it's few periods of activity dragging it's clawless paws against either the surface of a chair or the dog's face. The one time it managed to sneak outside, it ran under a bush and cried until someone came and got it, since when it hasn't shown any interest in going out again. It's chances of having to fight off wild animals or climb trees are nil. Thus, it being declawed makes sense.

I mean jeez, it's an animal. If you lived in a different culture, you'd probably eat it.

Well, I hate to sound cold or anything, Prawn, but that's a pretty pathetic excuse for a cat you've got there. I'd send it back for a refund.

[fgalkin]

My cat is a placid bag of meat that spends it's few periods of activity dragging it's clawless paws against either the surface of a chair or the dog's face. The one time it managed to sneak outside, it ran under a bush and cried until someone came and got it, since when it hasn't shown any interest in going out again. It's chances of having to fight off wild animals or climb trees are nil. Thus, it being declawed makes sense.

I mean jeez, it's an animal. If you lived in a different culture, you'd probably eat it.

Well, I hate to sound cold or anything, Prawn, but that's a pretty pathetic excuse for a cat you've got there. I'd send it back for a refund.

*sigh*
He's flamebaiting you. He has no cat.

Please, don't feed the fucking troll.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin