letter from someone claiming to be me

[neoolong]

Marx argues though about the nature of capitalism and the oppression of the ruling class over the proletariat. He sees communism as a better way. That wouldn't just involve another form of oppression.

[Kuroneko]

Marx argues though about the nature of capitalism and the oppression of the ruling class over the proletariat. He sees communism as a better way.

True on both counts. However, although Marx supported communism, his actual work was not communist as much as simply anti-capitalist. Other than the short "Communist Manifesto", which is of questionable value since he gives almost no actual information whatsoever, I can't think of a single place he was explicitly communist and not simply attacking capitalism.

That wouldn't just involve another form of oppression.

Of what turned out in reality, of course he wouldn't approve. All I'm saying is that it is doubtful that he would disapprove of Lenin's writings themselves if he lacked the information of how history actually turned.

[Slartibartfast]

<< I got this as a fwd but it is really good please take the time to read it it is worth it. It makes you think and wonder what we are in store for in the coming days...months...maybe years!

*** snip very large and moving e-mail ***

P.S. If you really love me, you won't share this


letter with anyone.

The Devil!

I'm so touched...
That Satan is one swell dude.
We wuv you!

[Tom_Aurum]

Certainly, but therein lies the difference. Both outlooks are autocentric, but they take different approaches. Capitalism's outlook is "Take care of yourself," and true to that outlook, Capitalists take care of themselves, or take care of others from the standpoint of "making an investment." Socialism's outlook is, "We will take care of you." but in order to manage the affairs of an entire nation, the entire nation must be made manageable. In order for this to happen, as much human unpredictability as possible must be eliminated, and the only way to do this is to eliminate, or at least strictly ration and manage, liberties. Naturally, those managing those higher up on the ladder of power in a Socialist or Communist system enjoy comparable benefits of status to their counterparts in a Capitalist system, but they have the added benefit that they are not accountable to those they manage.

You're missing something here. Not to totally diverge from the topic. But logical fallacies. Left and right. First fallacy, the marxist-leninist viewpoint is the only from which communism or socialism has been tried. Actually, there are several governments that have at least a socialist approach to their economies, and are quite healthy democracies in the process. Even providing universal health care, and the social security system, are socialist programs. And the socialist states that I hear of actually tend to have more freedoms than the U.S. For instance, but not limited to, recreational use of marijuana.

Actually, in fact communism, and I do mean full communism, has been tried successfully. Once. Problem is the french military at the time came back into town, discovered it going on, and summarily killed everyone involved because they couldn't take advantage of it. Look up something called The Paris Commune already. Anyways, that was where they got the whole flawed idea of the Proletariat defending the people. Yadda.

Oh, and the whole bodily purity thing... that's a totally independent idea, sometimes enmeshed with skinhead culture, which is full of extremists on all camps, each one more nuts than the last.

Granted, this still has nothing to do with religious bullshit. Religious bullshit is just an easy way to back up any pointless argument. The most painful sort of ad hominem, saying that someone must beleive it because it's what "the bible says" instead of because it makes sense.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Certainly, but therein lies the difference. Both outlooks are autocentric, but they take different approaches. Capitalism's outlook is "Take care of yourself," and true to that outlook, Capitalists take care of themselves, or take care of others from the standpoint of "making an investment." Socialism's outlook is, "We will take care of you." but in order to manage the affairs of an entire nation, the entire nation must be made manageable. In order for this to happen, as much human unpredictability as possible must be eliminated, and the only way to do this is to eliminate, or at least strictly ration and manage, liberties. Naturally, those managing those higher up on the ladder of power in a Socialist or Communist system enjoy comparable benefits of status to their counterparts in a Capitalist system, but they have the added benefit that they are not accountable to those they manage.

I suppose you're right. But back to the issue of leftist propoganda.

I don't think I've ever seen propoganda saying that certain liberties have been taken away. In fact, all the leftist propoganda I've seen refers mainly to the redistribution of wealth.

That's what makes it a bait-and-switch, Queeb.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Marx argues though about the nature of capitalism and the oppression of the ruling class over the proletariat. He sees communism as a better way.

True on both counts. However, although Marx supported communism, his actual work was not communist as much as simply anti-capitalist. Other than the short "Communist Manifesto", which is of questionable value since he gives almost no actual information whatsoever, I can't think of a single place he was explicitly communist and not simply attacking capitalism.

That wouldn't just involve another form of oppression.

Of what turned out in reality, of course he wouldn't approve. All I'm saying is that it is doubtful that he would disapprove of Lenin's writings themselves if he lacked the information of how history actually turned.

I'm not sure I understand how Lenin's writings weren't a very clear indication for what would result from implementing them.

[neoolong]

Marx argues though about the nature of capitalism and the oppression of the ruling class over the proletariat. He sees communism as a better way.

True on both counts. However, although Marx supported communism, his actual work was not communist as much as simply anti-capitalist. Other than the short "Communist Manifesto", which is of questionable value since he gives almost no actual information whatsoever, I can't think of a single place he was explicitly communist and not simply attacking capitalism.

True. He did see communism as the eventual result of capitalism when it failed. I think he miscalculated the situation but that's another story.

That wouldn't just involve another form of oppression.

Of what turned out in reality, of course he wouldn't approve. All I'm saying is that it is doubtful that he would disapprove of Lenin's writings themselves if he lacked the information of how history actually turned.

Perhaps. I haven't read that much of Lenin's writings though.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

<WHOOOSH!!!

I think now I know how Utsanomiko feels...

[Utsanomiko]

Actually Raoul, your style of philosophy and general thinking reminds me of someone who, when given the task of killing a misquito, buys and smuggles contraband insecticides from Bolivia via hot-air baloon, distilling drinking water from clouds and shooting birds for food. That, or Billy's dotted-line paths in Family Circle.

It wouldn't hurt you to not go all out-on-a-limb or up-in-the-clouds-crazy-a-riffic on us each time you discuss something even slightly subjective or non-literal. Plain English helps, too.

[Lord Pounder]

It stinks of really bad reverse psycology.

[Enforcer Talen]

-uses the DAHK SIDE of the force to split thread and move silly commie argument somewhere else-

we're talking about satan people, not stalin! totally different. . .

well, somewhat different.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Actually Raoul, your style of philosophy and general thinking reminds me of someone who, when given the task of killing a misquito, buys and smuggles contraband insecticides from Bolivia via hot-air baloon, distilling drinking water from clouds and shooting birds for food. That, or Billy's dotted-line paths in Family Circle.

It wouldn't hurt you to not go all out-on-a-limb or up-in-the-clouds-crazy-a-riffic on us each time you discuss something even slightly subjective or non-literal. Plain English helps, too.

LOL! But if I did that, I'd be... normal. And what would be the fun of that?

[Tom_Aurum]

Okay, you want direct?

Communism is not a bad word.

Communism is not a synonym for dictatorship.

Communism has really worked in the past.

God is a bad word to use when you're trying to be logical. It is the worst example of Ad Hominem.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

If someone would move these posts (original and this reply) to the thread this argument was split to, I'd appreciate it. I can't find that other thread.

Okay, you want direct?

Communism is not a bad word.

Communism is not a synonym for dictatorship.

In order to enforce a communist system, dictatorship is required. Otherwise, people will leave and the State will have no resource base.

Communism has really worked in the past.

Never on a national scale.

God is a bad word to use when you're trying to be logical. It is the worst example of Ad Hominem.

Who used it?

[Utsanomiko]

LOL! But if I did that, I'd be... normal. And what would be the fun of that?

Stars raining purple with expletive skyshine, upside streetwise nomenclanture to toe-strung the cobblerocking abfutstigated horse not.

That's not normal, either, but for communicating ideas it fucking sucks. The day writing's purpose is simply reduced to 'sounding pretty' over conveying information is the day I take up the kerosene hose and salamander helmet.

Anywho, I'd comment on the topic at hand, but I'll wait untill the difference between 'real-world communism' and 'true communism' is cleard up here.

[Queeb Salaron]

Skyshine is a cool word, though.

[HemlockGrey]

It appears the Devil failed Creative Writing I. No wonder God kicked him out of heaven.

[Durandal]

It appears the Devil failed Creative Writing I. No wonder God kicked him out of heaven.

Seriously, the writing style is uninspired and shitty. It looks like it was either written by a fifth-grader or a middle-aged fundamentalist Christian. There are a number of grammatical problems, as well; many people seem to be afraid of semi-colons and prefer to incorrectly use commas in their place.

[Tom_Aurum]

The person using God (or satan) as ad hominem was the idjit who wrote Talen in the first place.

[Tom_Aurum]

Oh, and I guess I'll humor you, I'm in a vicious rant-like mood right now. New thread, under the simple title Communism.

[Sriad]

Letter From the Devil
*blahblahblah*
P.S. If you really love me, you won't share this letter with anyone.

The Devil!

You know, it would be really funny if God and Satan both fucked up; Satan's too incompetent to be evil and God is too judgemental to be good. Okay, maybe not funny, but ironic or something. Yea.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

LOL! But if I did that, I'd be... normal. And what would be the fun of that?

Stars raining purple with expletive skyshine, upside streetwise nomenclanture to toe-strung the cobblerocking abfutstigated horse not.

That's not normal, either, but for communicating ideas it fucking sucks. The day writing's purpose is simply reduced to 'sounding pretty' over conveying information is the day I take up the kerosene hose and salamander helmet.

Anywho, I'd comment on the topic at hand, but I'll wait untill the difference between 'real-world communism' and 'true communism' is cleard up here.

Believe it or not, Utsan, I do see your point; but I would guess by the majority of the reactions to my posts that my writing style is effective more often than it is ineffective.

[Utsanomiko]

Skyshine is a cool word, though.

It sounds like a Transformer's name.

Anywho, Hemlock hit it on the mark; even if this Christian troglodyte letterwritter was still in junior high or such , they'd have to be flunking English. It's probably some scatterbrain minsiter's wife who doesn't go outside except to church and that Jesus Store featured on X Entertainment.

[Raxmei]

C.S. Lewis did it earlier and better with the Screwtape Letters.

[Queeb Salaron]

C.S. Lewis did it earlier and better with the Screwtape Letters.

Yep. That's glory for ya.