ST's best side and SW's worst side

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Obviously, the only way the Federation can beat the Empire is if you take it's best statstics, size, and firepower, and put it agaisnt SW's worst statistics, as stated by some rabid Trekkies. What are the most overstated ST stats and most unfairly understated SW stats you've seen?

You might have seen that site that says ISD weapon powers are comparable to that of the lights in a stadium, and you might have heard from ignorant Trekkies that hyperdrive is 1.5c and so on.

[Master of Ossus]

GK has the most pro-Trek bias I have ever seen in a person. His figures for ST are absurd by almost any standards, and they can be proven wrong in a multitude of easy ways.

That site with the lightbulb sized TL's is probably the worst, but I think that as far as minimizing the SW side goes it has to go to DarkStar and his hideaway.

[Akira]

The most over stated ship count for the UFP is 55-75000. (but that would be about right if they were counting "craft")

[Master of Ossus]

The most over stated ship count for the UFP is 55-75000. (but that would be about right if they were counting "craft")

Where did you read that? And how would it be accurate with "craft" involved?

[Anarchist Bunny]

The most overstated figures for trek was from the lightbulb TL sight, 400,000.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Grrrrrrrr, ships that is, 400000 ships.

[Akira]

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... adid=34680

[Akira]

...., and you might have heard from ignorant Trekkies that hyperdrive is 1.5c and so on.

It is.

j/k

[Lord of the Farce]

The most outrageous calcs for the Federation (and ST by extension) that I have ever seen someone come up with while having a straight face is isoton calcs based on the ridiculous premises that the Borg 5 million isoton mine thing "destroys an entire star system" (when IIRC it was "affects an entire star system").
Not surprisingly, the resulting number for isoton was out by a ridiculous orders of magnitudes, and anyone with half a brain can see that the numbers simply doesn't work with the rest of ST (a slight mis-balance in one of your car's tires might affect the performance, but that is far from destroying it).

[Master of Ossus]

That's pretty stupid. His logic is not even that good, considering that so much of the Federation is so likely to be sparsely defended, and because only borders need to be heavily defended and he relies upon a uniform ship density. Even with those assumptions, it's stupid because he ignores the ships either refitting or in drydock while the others are on patrol.

And actually, 50,000+ships is not a lot compared to the Galactic Empire, but it is more than SF has. I am not really upset with the estimate itself, so much as I am ticked off by the reasoning behind the estimate, which is laughably incomplex.

[Akira]

GK has the most pro-Trek bias I have ever seen in a person. His figures for ST are absurd by almost any standards, and they can be proven wrong in a multitude of easy ways.

That site with the lightbulb sized TL's is probably the worst, but I think that as far as minimizing the SW side goes it has to go to DarkStar and his hideaway.

lightbulb sized TL's??? Where??

DarkStar's Hideaway????? Where?

[Akira]

That's pretty stupid. His logic is not even that good, considering that so much of the Federation is so likely to be sparsely defended, and because only borders need to be heavily defended and he relies upon a uniform ship density. Even with those assumptions, it's stupid because he ignores the ships either refitting or in drydock while the others are on patrol.

OMG.... You said something useful. "the ships either refitting or in drydock while the others are on patrol"

Starfleet has 12000 cap ships. When you add in the effects of the above quote, it gives you an active fleet of 6-8000.

[TheDarkling]

The Land of Darkstar - http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWhi.html

Not as evil as some would have you believe but he does have some odd thoughts especially on SW canon.


http://home.att.net/~tomjlee/starwars/index.html Insanity central and I think they meant lightbulb power tls.

[Master of Ossus]

lightbulb sized TL's??? Where??

DarkStar's Hideaway????? Where?

The lightbulb sized TL's are here: http://home.att.net/~tomjlee/startrek/index.html

DarkStar's Hideaway is here: http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWhi.html

Have fun. And remember to have an insanity booster innoculation before going in.

[Akira]

Have fun. And remember to have an insanity booster innoculation before going in.

I had that before I came here.

[Ender]

Have fun. And remember to have an insanity booster innoculation before going in.

I had that before I came here.

You obviously got the placebo.

[SCVN 2812]

The highest high end for Star Trek is from TOS where the Enterprise takes several direct hits from a planetkiller's main (and possibly only) weapon, an anti-proton beam capable of breaking up a planet in a single shot.

A second high end would be Die is Cast which would put the forward arc of the ships involved at 1/20th the firepower of an EU stardestroyer. These 20 ships were planning on and expecting to do what an Expanded Universe Star destroyer can do in the same amount of time (destroy the crust of a planet)

[Howedar]

Oh GOD, not this again.

[TheDarkling]

My personal favourite TOS weapon is the Romulan Plasma Torp.

Its low end figures are as follows.
30 Million KM range.
FTL speed (faster than emergency warp - whatever that is)
256 GT Firepower.

Take that Imps, yeah that 56 above the ICS and it has one hell of a range on it.

But it gets better, at first meeting one of these torps causes heavy damage to the Ent-Nil but next time it takes 13 or so shots (proving that fed shieldscan be modified easily) giving the Ent-Nil 3 Teratons of shielding against Plasma weapons.
This could also explain those TDiC happenings since Romulan Plasma torps have a huge yield but shields have a much larger effect upon them than upon Phton Torps.

It all wraps up well but its assumption heavy, nice in theory however.

[SCVN 2812]

Time to practice some high school math

25,000 stardestroyers according to EU (I personally thought it was higher than that, but maybe I remembered wrong)

takes 20 of the best that two of the AQ/BQ's greatest powers have to offer to take just one stardestroyer down

So ST would need roughly 500,000 of it's finest, most powerful battleships to beat just the stardestroyers.

Federation has between 2000-25,000 ships (most of them probably not even starships, just patrol ships and fighters) and that's just ships total. Let's assume for the moment these at most 25,000 ships down to the last Miranda is equal to a D'deridex or Keldon and that the Cardassians, Romulans, Klingons and Breen all have the same amount of ships.

so we've got 175,000 but we need 500,000.

Yup, didn't have any doubts but just confirms it, ST still screwed even using the most powerful weapon figures actually based on a series.

[TheDarkling]

Ship numbers dont really factor into it, the massive FTL advantage is what gives them the edge.

If the Romulans had that Plasma torp 10 Warbirds could easily take on an ISD and at such a range and not even get hurt.
That and the ISD's would have to defeat planetary defenses and land invasion troops.
It would be a big job for the empire which doesnt really have that many ships to spare, however proving TOS level figures for TNG is differcult to say the least.

[Evil Jerk]

Who cares about the plasma torps, if the Enterprise could almost outrun them, an ISD certainly could. Not that they've ever been used outside of "Balance of Terror"

And how do you know the Planet Killer destroys planets in a single shot?
We've never seen it do that, more likely it chews up planets gradually, a bit like a World Devastator

[Stravo]

Another thing...plasma torps can be predetonated before they reach their target. The Ent Nil tried but their phaser banks were on the fritz. So the ISD just has to lay down some heavy flak fire and viola watch the plasma fireworks outside your view port.

[TheDarkling]

Evil Jerk: The enterprise could almost outrun them at warp, SW ships dont have a combat ftl drive and jumping out is considered defeat.

The torps are also seen in The Deadly Years TOS and are mentioned to still be in use during DS9.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

It's possible (but a little risky) to perform a micro-jump in a system for hyperdrives.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/hyperspace.html#microjumps

Short hyperspace hops are usually employed for the sake of reducing in-system travel times. Sublight travel between planets of a star system would take several hours, even at high relativistic speeds. High sublight speeds are undesirable for crew and sensors because of the time-dilation side-effects involved, and because inertial dampers might not be able to protect the ship's contents at high acceleration for prolonged periods.

Although microjumps of several light-hours are the norm, jumps of as little as several light minutes are possible with extremely careful calculation, as employed by Chewbacca in his assault at N'zoth during the Koornacht Cluster crisis.