Genetic Modifications Inc

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Kuroneco, you just didn't think this through, you just trotted out a kneejerk leftist arguement, not aplicable to this sci fi sceneario.(Racist!)

First of all, it wouldn't be simple prejudice, or xenophoebia. (leftist racist name calling arguement)The genies wouldn't be fertile with humans, and that, by definition, is a different species. Do you feel that human beings the dominant, (if dominance is truly a feature of how the two react)in a two race relation is a bad thing? Do you want the humans to be second class, if there is such a thing as class?

I put my race, the HUMAN race, above any ET or SuperHuman.
Does this make me a racist? Not the way YOU mean it.
Would YOU sell out Earth, to let an other, ET, SH race rule us Homo Saps?
I hope to Budda you WOULD be a racist, if given that choice.

My greatest fear, is that a non human race, would LITERALY treat us inhumanely.


You missed the better part of ST 2, the Kahn one. Superior brains, means superior ambition. Unless you plan on changing the genies "mental outlook," to make them less ambitious than human norms? Yeah, and we can make them LIKE working for human norms, like the Gem Hadar. The only way to prevent human from wanting to take advantage of genies, is to make only trivial, or lifesaving things legal.
The only way to keep genies from dominating humanity is to rob the genies OF there humanity.
Unless you change more than their bodies and IQs, they will run the normal range in outlooks, and ideologies.
Racism, ala Nazism, (The UberMan) would have quite an apeal to SOME genies, if only from a truth standpoint. (They ARE Supermen!)
There will be Gahndis, there will be Caligulas.
Do you want superhuman Caligulas on earth?

I am willing to live without SuperMotherTeresas, to ensure there are no SuperHitlers.

A world without diabetics, cystic firbrosis, or glasses, I can take.

Hence the ban, on "improvements."

[Lord Pounder]

I still say no. I may not have much but atleast when i look in the mirror i can say it's all me, that if i ignore the ears i had pinned back.

[Queeb Salaron]

I still say no. I may not have much but atleast when i look in the mirror i can say it's all me, that if i ignore the ears i had pinned back.

If you were born with these genetic modifications, it would still be you. It's just that "you" is manufactured. And once you got to know the manufactured you, you'd probably just accept it as another personality characteristic. Like, you're blond, have gray eyes, have manually coded genes, and like impressionist art. "You" is still you. It's just not the same "you" that everyone else is.

[Kuroneko]

Kuroneco, you just didn't think this through, you just trotted out a kneejerk leftist arguement, not aplicable to this sci fi sceneario.(Racist!)

First of all, it wouldn't be simple prejudice, or xenophoebia. (leftist racist name calling arguement)

I find it disturbing that you simplified my position to "your argument is based on xenophobia, so it must be wrong!" Doing this shows a deficiency of thought on your part, not mine. However, I'm open to possibility that I did not adequately think this through. If so, please refute my actual position and not a strawman.

I'm not sure why you equate xenophobic with racist to the point of basing your rebuttal from it, but the terms are not synonymous. In any case, it's not really crucial to your point, so I'll otherwise ignore it.

You missed the better part of ST 2, the Kahn one. Superior brains, means superior ambition.

I find this leap of logic uncomfortably large. Please tell me you have actual valid reasons for taking it, and not a Hollywood production.

Unless you change more than their bodies and IQs, they will run the normal range in outlooks, and ideologies.
Racism, ala Nazism, (The UberMan) would have quite an apeal to SOME genies, if only from a truth standpoint. (They ARE Supermen!) There will be Gahndis, there will be Caligulas...

On the distribution of mindsets, I agree with you completely. But what I see it as supporting my position nicely: for every schmuck with delusions of grandeur, there will be those to check their ambition. As I said previously, and you ignored, no amount of gen-altering will make you a Rambo III, able to take on legions of soldiers alone. Likewise, no amount of gen-altering will make you a Mule, able to grab political power regardless of both the public and other politicians.

If there was no Hitler, there'd just be someone else. He's still more of a product of pre-existing nazism than its initiator. If there was no Stalin, there'd be Trotski, who would likely be even worse than Stalin.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

What YOU seem to miss, is that the genies, would eventualy CONTROLE the military.
If rank and promotions were based on ability, the genies would be in the leadership positions, in about 30 years, AT THE LATEST! When enough of the command structure is yours, a coup becomes possible.
Hell, with enough of the norms going for the upgrades, eventualy the genies would out number the norms, and VOTE them out.
They don't have to win to fuck up the world.
What you also seem not to get, is how a small dedicated group, can exert influence far greater than there number suggests. Bear in mind, the genies will be richer than the norms, from there superior productivity/ability.
Just look at the fundies in America. Their dedication makes their influence disproportionate.

There will also be a large slave/sheep following, who want to hitch their wagon to the strongest horse, and let go of the reigns.

The genies in Star Trek didn't win controle over Earth, either, but the price everyone paid!
A civil war like that, we don't need.
You keep thinking the genies would play "EvilRambo", and be dstroyed by the army. They are too smart for that.
More likely they would use propaganda, mind controle, and MONEY, to manipulate the norms from behind the scenes.

The only 2 solutions I see, to keep the 2 DIFFERENT SPECIES frm conflict, is to apply UFP genetic upgrade ban, or make ALL birthes after a certain point genies. The Human race dies out, but no one notices.
The last generation of norms will be well taken care of, as supermen will still love their human parents, as the humans will love their genie children.

[His Divine Shadow]

Homo Invictus eh? I'm go. Tho you can't genetically engineer a fully grown human so its a moot point.

I believe you can.

[His Divine Shadow]

I thought some people would be reluctant to do this if it made them into a different species. I can quite easily picture fundies carrying torches and yelling, "You are not human! Die, children of Satan!"

I dunno, you'd still be human, just not human of that particular branch.

[His Divine Shadow]

IIRC it was done by a adding a good copy of the gene in question to a modified flu retrovirus.

retro-viruses are somewhat regularly used for genetic modification on humans, mostly for those that suffer from having no immune system.

[His Divine Shadow]

But there is a price:
Placing new genes on existing chromosomes may cause undesirable changes to the rest of the system. Therefore an entirely new chromosome will be added with the new genes. Unfortunately, this makes it impossible for you to have children with a non-modified human except under laboratory conditions. It will literary make you into a different species than Homo Sapiens.

But, there would be no adverse side effects from this right?

And I can have children with normal humans with some help, would these children then have my extra specialities? Would there be any danger of genetic screwup?

And what if the one I wished to have children with had or got the same modifications I have, would that make us compatible then?
Would there be any dangers then?

Otherwise, Homo Sapiens Invictus, I like the sound of that.
I wouldn't mind becoming a "Nietzschean"

[NecronLord]

Yes. Kahn Noonien Singh here I come...

Seriously though, this is done routinely in my own sci-fi universe. The simple answer to the breeding problem, is arrange for as many people as possible to have this service. If it is affordable then the govt should supply it free of charge to all unborn embryos (that are not going to be aborted anyway) Only demented fundies and the like would refuse. It would save a fortune of healthcare (Ok the US system is incredibly fucked up, assume the govt provides healthcare.) bills for the govt, and provide them with a generation of Homo Superiors. Superior intellect doesn't do diddly when everyone has it.

Emperor Chrostas. Your argument for no improvements is laughable. Some doctor would give his son/daughter the upgrades. It is better if everyone has them than a few.

The genies in Star Trek didn't win controle over Earth, either, but the price everyone paid!

Read the eugenics wars, the rise and fall of Kahn Noonien Singh. Most of them were nutters. Kahn himself wanted to help the herd of common humanity. The eugenics wars were fought througout the nineties, disguised as the bush fires. Kahn was eventually bombed by the USA and only his access to an advanced weapon of mass destruction prevented them crushing him sooner. - It's better than it sounds.

And I can have children with normal humans with some help, would these children then have my extra specialities? Would there be any danger of genetic screwup?

No they just get two copies of your extra chromosones. Yes, they have your additions.

I might add that most people forget that you can breed with other Homo Superior at will.

[Kuroneko]

What YOU seem to miss, is that the genies, would eventualy CONTROLE the military.
If rank and promotions were based on ability, the genies would be in the leadership positions, in about 30 years, AT THE LATEST! When enough of the command structure is yours, a coup becomes possible.

So, there are "genies" all over the military. I ask again: why is this so horrid? I'm not losing any sleep over how General so-and-so might attempt a coup the next day right now, and I don't see how, if he was "genie", his motivations would be inherently different from the typical person. Your argument assumes that this attitude will be prevalent among the majority of the "genies", and I still don't see any justification besides ST (which we all know is the paragon of logic and reason, I'm sure) references. It even contradicts your own statement about the distribution of ideological beliefs.

What you also seem not to get, is how a small dedicated group, can exert influence far greater than there number suggests. Bear in mind, the genies will be richer than the norms, from there superior productivity/ability.

If they attempt such influence, there will be counter-groups. It's as simple as that. You can't fool everybody all the time, and the fact that there will be "genies" that would oppose such actions make it even more so.

You keep thinking the genies would play "EvilRambo", and be dstroyed by the army. They are too smart for that.

See the part where I make the 'Mule' comparison--if it's erroneous, please tell me why rather than repeating that it is so.

More likely they would use propaganda, mind controle, and MONEY, to manipulate the norms from behind the scenes.

It doesn't hold water for Jews, and it doesn't hold water for "genies", either. And no, "there was a movie about it!" is not a valid reason to believe otherwise.

The last generation of norms will be well taken care of, as supermen will still love their human parents, as the humans will love their genie children.

Do you mean that it won't be a Holocaust of the norms, but a gradual supplantation as more and more people become "genies"? If that's the case, there is even less of a reason to object. So what if the human race will effectively become the "genies", and there is no mass-murder of the "norms"? This scenario is actually starting to sound like a good thing. Protesting the violent ways of the "genies" I could understand (even if you still haven't provided reasons why this would be so), but here you simply seem to hold a particular genome to be somehow holy. I can't imagine any possible rational reason for this.

[His Divine Shadow]

I might add that most people forget that you can breed with other Homo Superior at will.

Nitpick, but I think Homo Sapiens Invictus sounds alot cooler

[Peregrin Toker]

One of the FEW ideas that UFP has, that are worth a shit, is the "NO genetic modifications," ONLY fixes of known defects.NO upgrades.

Wouldn't that be an "upgrade" too if all known defects were fixed, Mr. Worst Case Scenario??

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

If you don't see the difference beteween fixing a defective heart valve, or alergic reaction to peanuts, and adding 50 IQ points, you need those extra 50 point yourself.

My whole point is this. Given the INCOMPATABILITY of SH, and HS, they are a differnt species. I think upgrades for all, or upgrades for none is the simplest way to go.

If the 2, HS, and SH could interbreed, (NOT the way THIS thread was phrased) they wouldn't be a seperate RACE! (hence, no racism)
If you can get the upgrades without the speciation factor, (NOT as THIS thread states)the upgrades will flow into the gene pool freely.

Upgraded individuals would marry "originals" right and left, as personality, not abilities make most people fall in love.
Silly as it sounds, live would be the answer.
I know briliant people who marry AIRHEADS, and are happy as can be, 'cous they love each other deeply. Smart kids love dumb parents, and smart parents love RETARDED children.
Love would truly be the salvation of all.


My whole point, missed by most, is the racial thing, caused by the specific condition in THIS THREAD, that the genies CAN'T crossbreed with human "norms."

If the infertility was the lay of the land, all HS/SH unions desiring children would opt for the SH upgrade plan, if they could afford it.

This is silly anyway, as an understanding of genetics to the point of making improvements,(as opposed to fixing "obvious" genetic abnormalities) would make cross fertilisation a priority.


Do you understant what the word "stipulated" means. (Agreed to, for purpose of ARGUEMENT, NOT considered FACT!)It was stipulated that the genies couldn't breed with human norms.
Without this unnatural and in my opinion SILLY condition, the whole landscape of this discusion changes.
It was STIPULATED, so I went with the condition as stated.
If you want to STIPULATE, that there is no speciation, there will not be the problems a new RACE would create.

By the way, I am 100% in favour of fixes and upgrades. If you can get me some of these upgrade, with a retrovirus, to "rewrite" my codes, so much the better.

But that would be a different thread topic, wouldn't it?

[His Divine Shadow]

I don't give a shit about any moral notions brought up, they're all crap according to me, I get whatever mods I damn well please and if they don't like it, I bid them extinction.

[Kuroneko]

If you don't see the difference beteween fixing a defective heart valve, or alergic reaction to peanuts, and adding 50 IQ points, you need those extra 50 point yourself.

How about Huntington's chorea or spina bifuda? Nasty genetic disorders, they need to be fixed. AIDS? Sure, there are already known genes that give immunity to it. Clearly, fixing a vulnerability to disease is a good thing. You even view getting rid of allergies as fixing a defect. Why don't we just make the human body as impervious as we can to all known diseases and allergens. But wait! Isn't that an enhancement, and thus impermissible? Or is it just patching up a great number of vulnerabilities ('defects') all at once?

Likewise, giving 50 IQ points to one with IQ of 60 is 'fixing' a defect, but why is giving 50 IQ points to one with 110 any different?

I submit to you that the position which you proposed above is incoherent. The line, if indeed there even is a line, between negative (fixing) and positive (enhancement) genetic engineering is not nearly as simple as you would like to believe.

If it is the case that we "must" draw a line somewhere (ala the abortion debate--the line between fetus and human being is controversial, but we need to draw it somewhere anyway), then you need to demonstrate that this is so. As it is, you haven't even shown that a line could be drawn, much less should be drawn.

My whole point, missed by most, is the racial thing, caused by the specific condition in THIS THREAD, that the genies CAN'T crossbreed with human "norms."

I know; you've said this several times. And I have questioned its relevance to morality, since your only justification for this assumption seems to be based in Hollywood scenarios. What else is new?

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

If you don't like the condition of this thread, don't be a part of it. Or better yet, start your own, better thread.
Aw fuck it. Just hijack this one.
Like THAT'S never happened!

[Kuroneko]

If you don't like the condition of this thread, don't be a part of it.

I accept the thread's condition of no un-assisted interbreeding just fine. I simply reject the assumption that it is somehow relevant to morality of either the "norms" or the "genies", which is crucial to your argument. I've already stated this explictly before. Your refusal or inability to justify this assumption is your problem, not mine.

[Peregrin Toker]

Likewise, giving 50 IQ points to one with IQ of 60 is 'fixing' a defect, but why is giving 50 IQ points to one with 110 any different?

Because it makes the 110-IQ guy more intelligent than he needs to be.

[Kuroneko]

Likewise, giving 50 IQ points to one with IQ of 60 is 'fixing' a defect, but why is giving 50 IQ points to one with 110 any different?

Because it makes the 110-IQ guy more intelligent than he needs to be.

Really? What determines how intelligent one 'needs' to be? I wasn't aware that mediocrity was a virtue.

[Peregrin Toker]

Likewise, giving 50 IQ points to one with IQ of 60 is 'fixing' a defect, but why is giving 50 IQ points to one with 110 any different?

Because it makes the 110-IQ guy more intelligent than he needs to be.

Really? What determines how intelligent one 'needs' to be? I wasn't aware that mediocrity was a virtue.

I meant that the +50 "upgrade" on a 60IQ person would raise the person to average intellect, while the 110IQ person would achive better-than-average intellect with the same "upgrade."

[Kuroneko]

I meant that the +50 "upgrade" on a 60IQ person would raise the person to average intellect, while the 110IQ person would achive better-than-average intellect with the same "upgrade."

Again: why is the average somehow inviolate? We're changing the average by the same amount no matter who we improve, the 60IQ or the 110IQ person, so by this principle of upholding the average, genetic enhancement and repair have the same ethical standing. If you mean something else, please clarify.

[Queeb Salaron]

I meant that the +50 "upgrade" on a 60IQ person would raise the person to average intellect, while the 110IQ person would achive better-than-average intellect with the same "upgrade."

So what? There's IQ-diversity amongst humans. Those with lower IQs are often made to do grunt work, while those with higher IQs are made to become management. That's the way it works. Why not implement that system among the new race?

[Oddity]

My whole point is this. Given the INCOMPATABILITY of SH, and HS, they are a differnt species. I think upgrades for all, or upgrades for none is the simplest way to go.

Then what are you complaining about? What do you think would be most profitable for a corporation; selling genetic upgrades to a select few for a million per modification, or selling them to everyone for a hundred bucks per modification?

My whole point, missed by most, is the racial thing, caused by the specific condition in THIS THREAD, that the genies CAN'T crossbreed with human "norms."

SNIP!

Do you understant what the word "stipulated" means. (Agreed to, for purpose of ARGUEMENT, NOT considered FACT!)It was stipulated that the genies couldn't breed with human norms.
Without this unnatural and in my opinion SILLY condition, the whole landscape of this discusion changes.

Actually, adding a new chromosome would be the smart thing to do if you don't know 100% how the human genetic code works. The human genome is like a spider web; a tiny alteration may have unpredictable effects on the rest of the 'web'. You can't just add new genes to the existing chromosomes as you please.

[Oddity]

Because it makes the 110-IQ guy more intelligent than he needs to be.

Really? What determines how intelligent one 'needs' to be? I wasn't aware that mediocrity was a virtue.

I meant that the +50 "upgrade" on a 60IQ person would raise the person to average intellect, while the 110IQ person would achive better-than-average intellect with the same "upgrade."

You do realize that someone with superhuman intelligence might look upon normal humans the same way we look upon the retarded? In other words there is no fast rule for what's 'normal' and 'average' in this context.