Declawing cats..

[Queeb Salaron]

Queen Salaron,

I think you should have your fingernails removed. After all, it's for my convenience, not yours.

XPViking

Difference being that I'm held responsible for the actions of my pets, and you are not held accountable for my actions. If one of my dogs was ever to hurt one of the little girls in my neighborhood, accidentally or otherwise, I would get sued at best, and lose the dog at worst.

As for the previous arguments about neighborhood children getting scratched or bitten by cats that have not been declawed, there's only one thing I will say: Boo-fucking-hoo!
Maybe the kids' parents should get their heads out of their asses, get a fucking clue and take some responsibility. I've always liked animals of all types, especially the furry, cuddly ones like dogs and cats. My parents always stressed to me that you do not go and pet strange dogs or cats without permission from the owner, period. The reason was because we might have gooten bit, and it'd have been our fault, not that of the animal. Children need to be taught early on that unfamiliar animals might bite or scratch, because they don't necessarily like being touched, petted or held. Even the most stubborn ones learn that lesson permanently the first time it happens. As the kids get older, they learn what you can and can't do with animals. How to approach, how to behave around them that they don't get upset/scared and consequently bite. Suing the owner of the cat is just trying to dodge your own neglect of responsibility (to teach the kids on what to do/not to do), and if you hadn't neglected that, then it's the kid's fault. Plain and simple.

Maybe the kids should know better not to go near strange dogs. The fact of the matter is, though, that these are not strange dogs. The neighborhood kids are over here all the time. If one of my dogs were to playfully paw at one of the little girls and claw her eye, I would be held responsible. And yes, as they get older, they'll learn these things. But that doesn't prevent them from being hurt now. As it is I've got minor scratches on the kids in my neighborhood from my dogs. Just some raised pink, no bloodshed, but that's only because I clip their nails. And if I didn't, I'd have multiple lawsuits on my hands. And yes, to answer that question that's probably on your mind, they're trained. One of them is a showdog. The other is in training to follow.

And regardless of the morality of it, the fact of the matter is that it is in my best interests to have the dogs claws removed. Necessary? No. But it is certainly in my best interests. Like a vasectomy would be in my best interests if I didn't want to get my wife pregnant ever again. (I don't have a wife. It's hypothetical.) If these medical technologies are available, why not use them? Yes, it will cause the dog a bit of pain for a week or two. But if that saves me a bigass lawsuit, then it's something they'll have to deal with. Pain killers. Extra scoop of food out of guilt. Doggy treat or two. When they get well, a couple of trips to the park. Good as new. Think about the long-term, not the short-term.

Honestly, it sounds like I just dropped in on a PETA convention...

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Now, now, let's ease up on poor old Queeb a little; he has conceded the point, after all.

(Besides, if we're nice to him, we can lull him into a really good --) What? He's still here?

[Queeb Salaron]

Now, now, let's ease up on poor old Queeb a little; he has conceded the point, after all.

(Besides, if we're nice to him, we can lull him into a really good --) What? He's still here?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz....zzzzzzz...zzz..z...urgkk.... wha?...

[LordShaithis]

Well, I hate to sound cold or anything, Prawn, but that's a pretty pathetic excuse for a cat you've got there. I'd send it back for a refund.

I would, but I got it used, and I doubt they want it back.

Anyway, it's very friendly with people, but hates the dog with a passion. (The dog is scared shitless of it.) Blood would have been shed by now if this cat had claws.

[Edi]

Difference being that I'm held responsible for the actions of my pets, and you are not held accountable for my actions. If one of my dogs was ever to hurt one of the little girls in my neighborhood, accidentally or otherwise, I would get sued at best, and lose the dog at worst.

Part of that problem is the lawsuit happy culture of America. It's not a dog problem, it's a people problem.

Maybe the kids should know better not to go near strange dogs. The fact of the matter is, though, that these are not strange dogs. The neighborhood kids are over here all the time. If one of my dogs were to playfully paw at one of the little girls and claw her eye, I would be held responsible. And yes, as they get older, they'll learn these things. But that doesn't prevent them from being hurt now. As it is I've got minor scratches on the kids in my neighborhood from my dogs. Just some raised pink, no bloodshed, but that's only because I clip their nails. And if I didn't, I'd have multiple lawsuits on my hands. And yes, to answer that question that's probably on your mind, they're trained. One of them is a showdog. The other is in training to follow.

Over at your place, or your yard? Thing is, then post 'no trespassing' signs, 'beware dogs' signs or something like that, explain to the kids that they must not come to your property (especially if the dogs are loose). I assume you don't let the kids play with your dogs without your supervision, and that they're not allowed to run free without supervision, but if that's not the case, it should be. Dogs can also be taught not to jump on people, which you probably know quite well. I actually do assume that any responsible dog-owner will train his/her dogs. I've little good to say of those who don't, my god-mother being one. She's totally unable to train her dogs, and the results of that are annoying, fortunately she has only had one dog at a time, of the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel variety, so it's not been a problem.

And regardless of the morality of it, the fact of the matter is that it is in my best interests to have the dogs claws removed. Necessary? No. But it is certainly in my best interests. Like a vasectomy would be in my best interests if I didn't want to get my wife pregnant ever again. (I don't have a wife. It's hypothetical.) If these medical technologies are available, why not use them? Yes, it will cause the dog a bit of pain for a week or two. But if that saves me a bigass lawsuit, then it's something they'll have to deal with. Pain killers. Extra scoop of food out of guilt. Doggy treat or two. When they get well, a couple of trips to the park. Good as new. Think about the long-term, not the short-term.

The lawsuits are a people problem, idiots who try to dodge their own responsibilities more than anything else. What the US needs is a serious system overhaul for damages and the laws governing the premises. I can think about the long term quite well, and I also happen to be of the opinion that people should shoulder their own responsibilities and if someone fails to do that on their part, I will not do it for them. Fortunately I live in a country where the laws actually support and encourage that, so I don't need to worry about being sued for things that are not my fault.

Honestly, it sounds like I just dropped in on a PETA convention...

You don't want to know what happens to PETA activists who show up here and start spouting bullshit. We just disagree with you for very sound reasons. You come from a somewhat different standpoint, but the way you started off on didn't particularly help and opened you up for attack.

Edi

[Queeb Salaron]

Part of that problem is the lawsuit happy culture of America. It's not a dog problem, it's a people problem.

Well yes, fine. But it's much easier to declaw a pet than it is to ween American society off of their legal pacifiers.

Over at your place, or your yard? Thing is, then post 'no trespassing' signs, 'beware dogs' signs or something like that, explain to the kids that they must not come to your property (especially if the dogs are loose).

I have a rather spacious backyard, and the kids come over to play all the time. They go swimming in my pool in the summer. Their parents are obviously there, too, and my entire neighborhood is really more of a collection of friends than anything else. They're more than welcome to come over, and as their host I would naturally provide them with certain comforts and securities, such as disarming the dogs that the children see as more as playmates than beasts. And rightly so.

I assume you don't let the kids play with your dogs without your supervision, and that they're not allowed to run free without supervision, but if that's not the case, it should be. Dogs can also be taught not to jump on people, which you probably know quite well. I actually do assume that any responsible dog-owner will train his/her dogs. I've little good to say of those who don't, my god-mother being one.

My dogs don't jump.

The lawsuits are a people problem, idiots who try to dodge their own responsibilities more than anything else. What the US needs is a serious system overhaul for damages and the laws governing the premises.

I totally agree with you there. But I can say that all I want when there's a little girl who's blind in one eye and I have a lawyer knocking at my front door. It won't do me any good, now, will it. If I could snap my fingers and make everyone take responsibility for their own actions, the world would be a better place. But I can't. So yes, while the litigiousness of American society needs to go, I have no power to make it go. The best I can do is not sue anyone and make it so that others have no reason to sue me.

I can think about the long term quite well, and I also happen to be of the opinion that people should shoulder their own responsibilities and if someone fails to do that on their part, I will not do it for them.

I'm sure that when I have to come face-to-face with the lawyer that the parents of that little girl hired, he'll get a kick out of me saying that. Besides, you talk about taking responsibility for one's actions: What about taking responsibility for someone's LACK of action? For example, if I had a Caribbean Pitbull and didn't train him, and he attacked one of my guests, totally unprovoked, whose responsibility is it? Then why is this any different?

EDIT: Fixed first quote

[Edi]

Part of that problem is the lawsuit happy culture of America. It's not a dog problem, it's a people problem.

Well yes, fine. But it's much easier to declaw a pet than it is to ween American society off of their legal pacifiers.

This I can readily concede. It's tangential to the morality/ethics aspect here anyway, we're drifting a little off the original topic.

I have a rather spacious backyard, and the kids come over to play all the time. They go swimming in my pool in the summer. Their parents are obviously there, too, and my entire neighborhood is really more of a collection of friends than anything else. They're more than welcome to come over, and as their host I would naturally provide them with certain comforts and securities, such as disarming the dogs that the children see as more as playmates than beasts. And rightly so.

I see.

My dogs don't jump.

Though I personally have no problem with dogs who do, it's better when they're trained not to. I always take care around animals, so I'd rarely be taken by surprise. Others don't necessarily use the same level of caution so...

The lawsuits are a people problem, idiots who try to dodge their own responsibilities more than anything else. What the US needs is a serious system overhaul for damages and the laws governing the premises.

I totally agree with you there. But I can say that all I want when there's a little girl who's blind in one eye and I have a lawyer knocking at my front door. It won't do me any good, now, will it. If I could snap my fingers and make everyone take responsibility for their own actions, the world would be a better place. But I can't. So yes, while the litigiousness of American society needs to go, I have no power to make it go. The best I can do is not sue anyone and make it so that others have no reason to sue me.

Conceded.

I can think about the long term quite well, and I also happen to be of the opinion that people should shoulder their own responsibilities and if someone fails to do that on their part, I will not do it for them.

I'm sure that when I have to come face-to-face with the lawyer that the parents of that little girl hired, he'll get a kick out of me saying that. Besides, you talk about taking responsibility for one's actions: What about taking responsibility for someone's LACK of action? For example, if I had a Caribbean Pitbull and didn't train him, and he attacked one of my guests, totally unprovoked, whose responsibility is it? Then why is this any different?

EDIT: Fixed first quote

Naturally each incident must be looked at individually. Neglecting to train a dog and then allowing it an opportunity to attack your guest clearly makes it your responsibility, just as there'd be a lot of responsibility on me if I didn't teach my kid (hypothetical, I don't have any) to be careful of strange animals and he consequently went and got bitten by a dog he wanted to pet, not knowing any better. My lack of action and neglecting my duties drastically increased the chances of that happening, and I cannot just try to evade responsibility. Same in your case, your lack of training the dog in the hypothetical case and then further dereliction of duty (of keeping it away from people because it's not trained) are factors that directly and substantially contribute to the other person being bitten, and thus there is a causal link. If, on the other hand, the guest kicked the dog for just shits and giggles, and the dog bit him, it's directly his own fucking fault, and he gets to pay the doctor's bill out of his own pocket. Or if he accidentally stepped on the dog's toes when it didn't see him coming, and the dog bit him, then it's an unfortunate accident, with no single party to really blame.

My cousin once got pretty well chewed up by my best friend's dog (the one I mentioned earlier, and it considered my cousin part of the pack), through no fault of his own or the dog's really. The dog was always scared of vacuum cleaners, and my friend's youngest brother who was something like six at the time was waving the vacuum cleaner's stalk (or whatever it's called) around (depsite being told not to) with no regard for the dog, which obviously got nervous and scared. My cousin (his back to the dog) shifted a little and accidentally stepped on the dog's hind toes, and the dog went berserk because it thought it was being attacked (quite understandable given the crowded situation and the vacuum cleaner waving so close, scaring him). My cousin ended up with serious bite marks all along his arm and shoulder, a couple of them bleeding and all of them sore as hell, as well as badly scared, but if it was anybody's fault, it was the six-year-old. He got a damned serious talking-to, you can bet on that. Things can just happen sometimes. Of course I understand your concerns, and they are yours to deal with as you choose. I'm just explaining here why I disagree and the reasons I would, even if given the opportunity, not declaw my pets.

Edi