V'jur

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-08-30 05:22am

As you should all know I am not a rabid trekkie fanatic, however as I tire of ignorant trekkies saying a GCS could whoop an ISD i now present Trek's most powerful ship ever.. V'gur;

V'jur's airlock

The question is, assuming it makes its way into the wars galaxy intent on causing trouble, what would be needed to stop it?

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2002-08-30 06:13am

You mean V'ger.

I doubt even Death Star could stop it but that is just speculation. The forcefield alone is over 82 AU in diameter. The power to generate that must be enourmus. Anyway the abilities of that cloud is still unknown, so it is going to be hard to debate anything regarding on this... thing. But it does have the firepower to level Earth with no problem.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-08-30 06:18am

I know it's witten v'ger, i discovers that as i searched for the photo.

I was just too lazy to change it

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-08-30 06:41am

Load up the Ultra-Super-Mega-Duper-Top-Secret Jar Jar Torpedoes to level it.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-08-30 12:07pm

Dark Primus wrote:You mean V'ger.

I doubt even Death Star could stop it but that is just speculation. The forcefield alone is over 82 AU in diameter. The power to generate that must be enourmus. Anyway the abilities of that cloud is still unknown, so it is going to be hard to debate anything regarding on this... thing. But it does have the firepower to level Earth with no problem.

Well that may be true, the DS commander just has to coax it's way into V'ger and fire the Superlaser. In ST:TMP Scotty assumed that if the Enterprise Self-Destructed that it would be Enough to destroy V'ger. "When that much matte and anti-matter comes together, ay, it will."

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-08-30 01:04pm

Dark Primus wrote:You mean V'ger.

I doubt even Death Star could stop it but that is just speculation. The forcefield alone is over 82 AU in diameter. The power to generate that must be enourmus. Anyway the abilities of that cloud is still unknown, so it is going to be hard to debate anything regarding on this... thing. But it does have the firepower to level Earth with no problem.

While the forcefield is 82 AU across, V'Ger itself is only about 100 km long, and DITL speculates 97.5 km, with a diameter of 32 km. I accept those measurements because I think the makers of TMP (in the Star Trek: Phase II book?[/i]) said V'Ger was suppost to be that large. I believe that there was also a schematic for V'Ger in the book that listed it's length as ~100 km.

Unfortunately, this is the only external image of V'Ger I could find. But this is what it looks like in the Director's Edition (and was always going to look like), so it's canon.

If I find a really good one, I'll post it.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2002-08-30 02:33pm

If the death star could get inside the forcefield to fire its superlaser at V'Ger istself, I have little doubt that it could destroy it instantly. It may even be that a standard ISD could deliver enough firepaower to do it.

The problem would be getting that close. I believe that Spock saw whole planets and stars reduced to data patterns during his "walk". Thus, there can be little doubt that V'Ger would have no difficulty in likewise reducing a death star.

On the other hand, the death star's shields might just hold out. The Enterprise shields did prevent V'Ger's energy weapon from patterning the ship. though it severely drained their shields, and they only just averted a strike by a second one that would have finished the job.

The death star's shields are doubtless far stronger than those of the original refitted Enterprise, so this would appear to be a question of whose shields would be overcome first. I'm not sure we have enough information to make a definitive judgement on this, but I suspect V'Ger would take the victory.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-08-30 03:00pm

Perinquus wrote:If the death star could get inside the forcefield to fire its superlaser at V'Ger istself, I have little doubt that it could destroy it instantly. It may even be that a standard ISD could deliver enough firepaower to do it.

The problem would be getting that close. I believe that Spock saw whole planets and stars reduced to data patterns during his "walk". Thus, there can be little doubt that V'Ger would have no difficulty in likewise reducing a death star.

On the other hand, the death star's shields might just hold out. The Enterprise shields did prevent V'Ger's energy weapon from patterning the ship. though it severely drained their shields, and they only just averted a strike by a second one that would have finished the job.

The death star's shields are doubtless far stronger than those of the original refitted Enterprise, so this would appear to be a question of whose shields would be overcome first. I'm not sure we have enough information to make a definitive judgement on this, but I suspect V'Ger would take the victory.

FYI V'Ger had far stronger weapons for use against planets.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-08-30 03:42pm

In line with what some others have written, it was clear that V'Ger had digitized entire worlds and start systems...digitizing a DS would prove no obstacle and all assumptions on destroying V'Ger involve getting past the field, I doubt V'Ger would let the DS in so easily. I think in this case. the empire has one helluva fight on its hands.

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2002-08-30 04:08pm

For those that want a visual on how large V'Ger is compared to the Earth, here's a screengrab from the Special Edition DVD:

http://vertigo1-2.freeyellow.com/V'Ger_tactical.jpg

And V'Ger's weaponry

http://vertigo1-2.freeyellow.com/Plasma.jpg
http://vertigo1-2.freeyellow.com/Plasma2.jpg
http://vertigo1-2.freeyellow.com/Plasma2a.jpg (taken just a few frames later)

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2002-08-30 04:10pm

Stravo wrote:In line with what some others have written, it was clear that V'Ger had digitized entire worlds and start systems...digitizing a DS would prove no obstacle and all assumptions on destroying V'Ger involve getting past the field, I doubt V'Ger would let the DS in so easily. I think in this case. the empire has one helluva fight on its hands.

V'Ger digitized entire GALAXIES on its way to Earth. I seriously doubt the Empire has anything at their disposal that could stop it.

Akm72 · Post by **Akm72** » 2002-08-30 04:28pm

I have the directors cut DVD of ST-TMP, and I'd recommend it to anyone who didn't hate the original completly - it is significantly better.

However I'd make a couple of comments about it in a ST v SW scenario;

The original ship-destroying plasma ball took down 70% of the Enterprises shields - the anti-planet balls are described by Spock in the directors' cut as being hundreds of times more powerful.
The Enterprise's shields shouldn't be able to withstand more than low 10's of megatons of energy. Which makes the full size anti-planet weapons equivalent to low gigatons.
In the absence of any conclusive evidence for the strength of V'Gers defences, it is reasonable to assume they are similar in scale to it's offensive capabilities - ie low gigaton range, with probably about 100 gigatons as an upper limit.
The AotC ICS proves that this is still far too low to deal with SW capital ships, and definately not the a DS.

Also the directors cut has shrunk the cloud down to a 'mere' 2 AU diameter. And a rough measurement from the film would suggest a size for the V'Ger spacecraft as being closer to 25-50km than 100km.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-08-30 04:32pm

Akm72, thanks for the info.

I have the DVD, as well. Good thing it also fixes the "Vulcan has two moons at night" thing.

Akm72 · Post by **Akm72** » 2002-08-30 04:41pm

This website (by one of the guys responsible for filming the original model) http://www.barbeefilm.com/vgerpage02.htm claims it was intended to be 1000km long. Though I believe the footage he worked on proves him wrong

Now if I could just take screenshots from my DVD

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-08-30 04:52pm

Galaxy Gun.

More mass just means a bigger boom.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-08-30 04:54pm

Ender wrote:Galaxy Gun.

More mass just means a bigger boom.

Yeah, fire one right up it's tailpipe.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-08-30 04:56pm

assuming V'ger doesn't simply see the death star / galaxy gun and digitise the SW galaxy...

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-30 04:57pm

Can V'ger target ships with the planet-destroying weapons?

I dunno they could have used stronger weapons against the Enterprise earlier but they didn't.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-08-30 07:04pm

assuming V'ger doesn't simply see the death star / galaxy gun and digitise the SW galaxy...

Now, what evidence is there that V'ger digitized entire galaxies at once, instead of piecemeal... one star at a time?

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2002-08-30 11:34pm

Now, what evidence is there that V'ger digitized entire galaxies at once, instead of piecemeal... one star at a time?
Time?

Voyager six was launched in the 20th century, let's benchmark that at 1950, STI was set in what? 2400 give or take. That's 450 years, 164362.5 days (ignoring the screwyness of leap years in 2100, 2200, and 2300). It takes V'ger 3 days to go from Klingon space to Earth. So let's say it takes V'ger 3 days to travel from 1 star to the next. That means that V'ger has the time to digitize 54,787 stars give or take. Our galaxy has something like 4*10^11 stars. In a nutshell to digitize 1 galaxy star by star in the time frame of V'ger's life would be take a rate of star digitization of about 28 seconds/star (note this implies ludicriously long range digitization or excessive superluminal velocities compared to say hyperdrive).

One could rationalize this with V'ger's actions by saying that it was distracted by its quest for God, had some misgivings, and no longer cared to waltz about at top speed or digitize things from ludicrious ranges away.

Another possible cop-out is time travel (its been a long time since I watched the movie so if its explicitly mentioned I've forgotten). With say 1 day on average between stars you are looking at jumping back in time a billion years, something which only the Q have done in Star Trek history (what a pathetic Voyager episode by the way).

Well this is as good a point as any to quit rambling.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2002-08-31 12:20am

Stravo wrote:In line with what some others have written, it was clear that V'Ger had digitized entire worlds and start systems...digitizing a DS would prove no obstacle and all assumptions on destroying V'Ger involve getting past the field, I doubt V'Ger would let the DS in so easily. I think in this case. the empire has one helluva fight on its hands.

IIRC, the "digitizing" was only a recording. It didn't destroy the planet or galaxy when it scanned it.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-08-31 02:17am

Cpt_Frank wrote:Can V'ger target ships with the planet-destroying weapons? I dunno they could have used stronger weapons against the Enterprise earlier but they didn't.

That would be like using a Harpoon missile to take out an F-16. (assuming it could hit it)

Point being V'ger didn't need to use it's heavier weapons because two of it's standard would have done the job.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-08-31 06:37am

In a nutshell to digitize 1 galaxy star by star in the time frame of V'ger's life would be take a rate of star digitization of about 28 seconds/star

Now, now, I didn't say anything about distance. Obviously, if V'ger could digitize entire galaxies at once, a hundred thousand lightyears isn't going to make much difference, is it? (Unless they were dwarf galaxies, or something).

I just don't want to see people jumping from "it digitized big things" to "it can digitize ANYTHING, ANYWHERE, at ANY TIME".

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-08-31 12:50pm

It has recordings of digitised galaxies, and the only times we see it digitise things, it destroys them in the process, prove that it can non-offensivly digitise, (which would imply that when attacking the klingons/feds it is being malcious, an emotion, which it supposedly doesn't have.)

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-08-31 04:08pm

This is not canon or anything, but Gene Roddenberry once said that the Machine Planet in V'Ger's library was the Borg home world, which at least means it wasn't his intention that V'Ger destroyed EVERYTHING it recorded.
Again, I know that isn't canon but I'm just saying the writer himself gives us the possibility that all of V'Ger's digitising wasn't destructive.