ST's best side and SW's worst side

[TheDarkling]

Yeah I know but Micro jumping around for the entire fight wont get them anywhere and it doesnt seem they can do jumps in less than the light minute range so they cant close within weapons range to actually attack their target.

[Evil Jerk]

The torps are also seen in The Deadly Years TOS and are mentioned to still be in use during DS9.

I don't remember if they used it in that episode, but I'll take your word for it - it really doesn't matter.
Plus, whether or not someone said they're in use in DS9 is irrelevant because we neither see them or their affects, they are obviously next to useless or their power would let the Romulans win easily.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Yeah I know but Micro jumping around for the entire fight wont get them anywhere and it doesnt seem they can do jumps in less than the light minute range so they cant close within weapons range to actually attack their target.

Saxton's comment on a micro-jump in The Hutt Gambit:

Two-second hyperspace microjump. This implies that the distance between Nal Hutta and Nar Shaddaa was at least several hundred thousand kilometres during the battle. If the average speed of the jump was lightspeed then the distance would be about 599,600km.

[TheDarkling]

Unless what I already stated was correct and we do see their use during TDiC and in the Dominion war (I assume those torps are plasma torps).

They also wouldnt allow the Romulans to win easy since they underwent the strange wierd weakening affect between TOS and TNG that every other race under went, somehow, with no explanation or even logic behind it.

[TheDarkling]

Spanky The Dolphin: If the Jump is only light speed then they cant outrun the Plasma torp which is FTL Probably high FTL but no way to be sure.

[Evil Jerk]

Unless what I already stated was correct and we do see their use during TDiC and in the Dominion war (I assume those torps are plasma torps).

They also wouldnt allow the Romulans to win easy since they underwent the strange wierd weakening affect between TOS and TNG that every other race under went, somehow, with no explanation or even logic behind it.

Yeah, too bad about the mysterious weakening affect there.
I've always thought the TOS would put up a much better fight against the Empire than anything from TNG onwards.
Too bad B&B hate TOS

[TheDarkling]

TOS probably wold put up a better fight, they could sure take down one ISD but eventually their small numbers would be overwhelmed, that is until the Organians steeped in and stopped the war .

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Saxton was using C as a minimum estimate (specifically for finding more figures for the distance between Nal Hutta and Nar Shadaa.) Re-read the quote, please.

Since hyperdrives can travel up to ~3 million C, I wouldn't be surprised that a microjump could have a ship travel at different speeds.

[TheDarkling]

yes but if it was at 3 Million C then the moon would be to far from its planet thus making very little sense, I did read the quote you see.

Also the Vong do a 2000Km jump during Agents of Chaos One showing a much slower than light micro jump (this is however Vong tech and they are better at doing Microjumps than the Imps).

Also the faster the jump becomes the further the away the ship gets and the less use in combat it becomes.

Micro Jumps are of very little use against an FTL weapon apart from usnig it to regroup, would I be correct they were in the MF? if so its a bit more nimble than your average ISD.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

(Shit, not another fucking simantics argument...)

Drop what I said about the 3 mill c thing, okay. Don't act like it's either-or, since I know you're smarter than that. It would be between 1c and 3 million c.

Since when does manueverability matter in a hyperspace jump.

Okay, say an ISD makes a microjump (1-2 seconds) so that it's about 5 million km away from the plasma. So fucking what if it's out of range? The projectile misses the ISD, right? That's all that matters.

(Warning: Extreme Guess Based on Limited Knowledge of the Plasma Weapon) And since this plasma can track targets, all the ISD has to do is wait for it to come into weapons range, then blow the fuck out of it.

[Kamakazie Sith]

(Shit, not another fucking simantics argument...)

Drop what I said about the 3 mill c thing, okay. Don't act like it's either-or, since I know you're smarter than that. It would be between 1c and 3 million c.

Since when does manueverability matter in a hyperspace jump.

Okay, say an ISD makes a microjump (1-2 seconds) so that it's about 5 million km away from the plasma. So fucking what if it's out of range? The projectile misses the ISD, right? That's all that matters.

(Warning: Extreme Guess Based on Limited Knowledge of the Plasma Weapon) And since this plasma can track targets, all the ISD has to do is wait for it to come into weapons range, then blow the fuck out of it.

Remember this projectile moves at FTL......will they have time to target and destroy it?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

When I made that last post, I didn't know that the Plasma torp had a range of 30 million km.

Okay, so the ISD makes a microjump of about 50-100 million km (which still would take less then 5 seconds). Then just lay out the flak bursts and TL blasts.

[TheDarkling]

That 30 Million KM is low end VERY low end but lets stick with it.

Lets Say the ISD knows the Romulan ships are there (tey arent cloaked for some reason).

The ISD closes within range of the Plasma weapon say 300,000 km, it would take the plasma weapon >1 second to cross that distance and hit the ISD which gives the ISD 1 second to jump.

Lets say somehow they make it can the flak destroy the torp? Vong use plasma weapons and I dont recall flak burst being used to break them up (I will give wars the benefit of the doubt here and say that the Vong plasma weapon isnt powerful enough to warrant such action but this one will) we know a phaser can destroy it however phasers dont work like TL's the phaser would shunt part of the Plasma to subspace due to their NDF nature, at best a TL would probably break up the plasma torp but some plasma is likely to get past one or two close misses.

So the ISD gets past all of these problems it still must get within weapons range of the Romulan ship so it can fire but if it has to micro-jump everytime the romulan fires off a torp then lay down a massive flak wall.

This will waste power and bring the ISD no closer to its goal.

I think an ISD will have trouble getting out of range in time 1 second at 300,000 (max) can SW ships hyper jump backwards? if not can an ISD do a 180 and execute a micro jump all inside 1 second?

This doesnt look good for the ISD at all.

[SPOOFE]

Can the Romulan plasma torpedo track a target in hyperspace?

it would take the plasma weapon >1 second to cross that distance and hit the ISD which gives the ISD 1 second to jump.

Yes, but what is the refire rate for those torps? At best, the Romulans can hit the ISD once before it's outta there... then it jumps back in again, two kilometers from the Romulans, and blasts it to pieces.

[Master of Ossus]

I think that it seems the limiting factor on ST weapons is their targeting computers and not the range of the weapons themselves. While they maintain a reasonable accuracy in ship-to-ship combat, that is primarily at close range and at relatively low relative velocities. Their bombardment capabilities for un-maneuvering targets is probably much greater, much like SW tractor beams.

[TheDarkling]

2000 KM is too small for a micro jump, the Vong pulled of one and the X wing pilots couldnt believe it had happened.

The refire rate is the consideration, the modern plasma torps have a refire rate the smae as photons but the older one did have a slower refire rate of about a minute or two.

However after firing the ship can just go to warp then return (or cloak) so it then becomes a stalemate with neither side getting anything done.

[Master of Ossus]

So, ST ships have no chance to attack a SW ship directly, but the SW ship has no chance to destroy the crafty little warbird.

The problem for ST is, though, that they can't defend a planet or another strategic target. And that is assuming that the ST ships have the ability to target a starship at that range.

[TheDarkling]

No the ISD cant attack the planet because it has to run off from the warbird once it fires its weapon and then has to get lucky with destroying it.

It then closes on the planet and the warbird starts te game again, not to mention Planetary defenses could drive off the ISD.

This is all assuming the best possible factors for the ISD and worst for the plasma torp.

If we assume the Plasma torp of TNG/DS9 have the same yield (and since we havent see anything pointing against it and TDiC will at least point towards it) then the ROF will be too great for the ISD to have a chance of closing.

Also the Warbird could be cloaked fire off 4 torps and watch the ISD try to escape.

So does anyone have any idea of an ISD's rate of turn because it it cant do 180 in 1 second its going to take a torp to its shielding.

It wouldnt really change much except in a ISD Vs TOS Romulans which would go something like this.

ISD jumps into system.
10 Warbirds decloak.
ISD enters 300,000 KM.
Warbirds fire.
1 Second later a few teratons of energy hit it shields.

Now if you were to assume that my idle speculation (it isnt really a theory) is correct then TNG Romulan ships could actually take on an ISD in groups as small as five.

That would be a huge boost.
By the same logic TNG ships should be able to take at least 3 Teratons of Plasma energy which would be good for those people who consider TL's top be plasma based weapons.
Im not going to actually suggest the above is correct however since taking a Napalm bath would be less painfull.

[Master of Ossus]

You are also assuming that the range against a ship is equal to the range against a planet, when Trek clearly demonstrates that their targeting computers/sensors are the limiting factor against ships.

[From "Coming of Age"]

TASHA: He's out of transporter range.

WORF: Tractor beam?

RIKER: Won't work. He's too far away for a positive lock.

Remember that at this point during the Episode, the ship he was on was hurtling towards the atmosphere of a planet from which they had beamed Wesley, earlier. Clearly they have vastly more problems targeting a ship than they do targeting a planet.

Also note that the tractor beams have greater reach than the sensors/computers can lock onto.

[SPOOFE]

No the ISD cant attack the planet because it has to run off from the warbird once it fires its weapon and then has to get lucky with destroying it.

That's why I asked the refire rate. An ISD can take one of those plasma torps, and respond with a massive volley of all its guns. Even if only 5% of the shots hit, that's still a pain in the ass for the Romulans.

[Cpt_Frank]

Err btw the Romulan torp has around 256 gigatons right?
Well the ISD can withstand 30 minutes of constant bombardment with probably much stronger weapons so no chance for ST anyway.

[TheDarkling]

Yes but I doubt it can take a few teratons hitting it shields all at once in a small area (use see how effective protons torps are against them), Wars shields an be overloaded by concentrating fire.

If you take the modern Romulan Plasma torps to be same yeild each ship could dish out 1Teraton in one volley, 5 Ships is equal to five teratons, hitting all at once that has a good chance of doing some damage.

Where does that 30 Minute figure come from because I have heard it often but never been told where its from.

[Cpt_Frank]

Unfortunately for you my friend the modern torps are fucking weak.
The old torps packed the punch.
And 1 teraton is still not sufficient.
Btw I really don't hope to see the plasma torps outside of this thread again since they where unique to Balance of Terror.

[TheDarkling]

Unfortunately for you my friend the modern torps are fucking weak.

Your evidence would be? and since I wasnt stating it anyway I have to wonder if you just cam elooking to cause trouble.

The old torps packed the punch.

I did say this you will recall.

[/quote]And 1 teraton is still not sufficient.

Math 10*0.250 = 2.5

Btw I really don't hope to see the plasma torps outside of this thread again since they where unique to Balance of Terror.

Wrong they were also seen in The Deadly Years (Or so I was told havent seen it in a while) and they are mentioned as still being in production during DS9.
I have already stated this, you have read the thread right?
Also its a bit irritating when people hand out orders/threats.

That post had Zero relevance, so why was it posted?

[Cpt_Frank]

Your evidence would be? and since I wasnt stating it anyway I have to wonder if you just cam elooking to cause trouble.

Me looking for trouble? No.

Wrong they were also seen in The Deadly Years (Or so I was told havent seen it in a while) and they are mentioned as still being in production during DS9.

Err could be.
Btw wasn'T there a TNG episode where the E-D was facing off 2 Rom Warbirds and weren't they using torps there? Or somehting like that?

I have already stated this, you have read the thread right?
Also its a bit irritating when people hand out orders/threats.

That post had Zero relevance, so why was it posted?

Wasn't meant to be a threat, but I appologize anyway since it was a indeed bit insulting, I don't want to earn the village idiot title.[/quote]