What Imperial Army?

[Ender]

After 9-11, I didn't see the military everywhere. It's because they were trying to sort out what happened at the pentagon.

Samer situation with Endor. They just lost a good chunk of thier command structure. You think that isn't going to throw them off?

[AL]

Jim Raynor Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 11:45 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by AL:
I'm not so sure there is an imperial army. I think the Stormtroopers are the core of the fighting force. Everything else exists to support them. I would even say that the at-at operators are indeed clones grown and trained with the stormtroopers, but receive advanced training in at-at operations. However, I can't prove this theory. I can't explain at-st operators, they are not clones. There would be no need for an army if you have stormtroopers, all clones and all the best of the best, loyal to the cause good at what they do and easily replaced, and very expendable.
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Read the Imperial Sourcebook, which you can find a link to in one of the other threads on this forum. It very clearly explains that Stormtroopers are not the main ground troops, but is a special elite shock force separate from both the Army and the Navy. Also, Stormtroopers aren't clones. The EU shows that they are normal men just like anybody else.




Jim Raynor, I have this book, you have to understand Star Wars belongs to George Lucas. The EU and everything written or published in regards to the EU must yield to George Lucas. Lucas has stated in several interviews that the clone troopers evolve into stormtroopers and that the stormtroopers are clones. I'm not saying this, George Lucas is. Also the Imperial Source book has Vsds and stike cruisers and other warships that we will not see in the movies. Its a good bet George will go with star destroyers in EPIII and we will see no mention of VSD at all. The VSD was a throw away concept when they were coming up with the designs for the Star Destroyers. The EU is known for using such things in it concept writings and publications. Many of the things in the EU are not cannon.

[Guest]

AL stated:

Jim Raynor, I have this book, you have to understand Star Wars belongs to George Lucas. The EU and everything written or published in regards to the EU must yield to George Lucas. Lucas has stated in several interviews that the clone troopers evolve into stormtroopers and that the stormtroopers are clones. I'm not saying this, George Lucas is. Also the Imperial Source book has Vsds and stike cruisers and other warships that we will not see in the movies. Its a good bet George will go with star destroyers in EPIII and we will see no mention of VSD at all. The VSD was a throw away concept when they were coming up with the designs for the Star Destroyers. The EU is known for using such things in it concept writings and publications. Many of the things in the EU are not cannon.

Finally, someone else who makes a sense.

[Guest]

Jadeite,

George Lucas goes through the trouble of making five (soon to be six movies) of the rise and downfall of the Empire, just to have the Empire squash the people who are celebrating the downfall of the Empire at the end of the final movie? I think someone else is the idiot here.

[SirNitram]

Jadeite,

George Lucas goes through the trouble of making five (soon to be six movies) of the rise and downfall of the Empire, just to have the Empire squash the people who are celebrating the downfall of the Empire at the end of the final movie? I think someone else is the idiot here.

Well, what you think means very little, as Lucas has endorsed the descriptions of what we've mentioned as real Star Wars, and would probably disregard anything you said.

[Guest]

I was under the impression that all canon material according to GL is based onthe movies, novelizations of the movies, and the radio programs of the movies. The other EU novels don't count. So unless somebody can show proof from any of those sources their argument doesn't amount to hill of beans. If the creator of this site wants to use EU books as canon that is his problem, not mine. I'm willing to hear out what everyone has to say as long as it is from a canon source. I love Star Wars. I'm not trying to "deconstruct" Star Wars. I just want to look at Star Wars from GL's original vision. I don't care for all of the lame EU writers like KJA and company.

There is no reason to sling insults at each other when we can respectfully discuss the Star Wars Galaxy. I have noticed that there is a lot of antagonism at this website that certainly doesn't have to exist. If someone can present a logical argument I would have no trouble at all believing it.

[Jim Raynor]

Jim Raynor Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 11:45 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by AL:
I'm not so sure there is an imperial army. I think the Stormtroopers are the core of the fighting force. Everything else exists to support them. I would even say that the at-at operators are indeed clones grown and trained with the stormtroopers, but receive advanced training in at-at operations. However, I can't prove this theory. I can't explain at-st operators, they are not clones. There would be no need for an army if you have stormtroopers, all clones and all the best of the best, loyal to the cause good at what they do and easily replaced, and very expendable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Read the Imperial Sourcebook, which you can find a link to in one of the other threads on this forum. It very clearly explains that Stormtroopers are not the main ground troops, but is a special elite shock force separate from both the Army and the Navy. Also, Stormtroopers aren't clones. The EU shows that they are normal men just like anybody else.




Jim Raynor, I have this book, you have to understand Star Wars belongs to George Lucas. The EU and everything written or published in regards to the EU must yield to George Lucas. Lucas has stated in several interviews that the clone troopers evolve into stormtroopers and that the stormtroopers are clones. I'm not saying this, George Lucas is. Also the Imperial Source book has Vsds and stike cruisers and other warships that we will not see in the movies. Its a good bet George will go with star destroyers in EPIII and we will see no mention of VSD at all. The VSD was a throw away concept when they were coming up with the designs for the Star Destroyers. The EU is known for using such things in it concept writings and publications. Many of the things in the EU are not cannon.

Are you referring to that interview on a Trek board that was posted as "proof" in that thread about whether Stormtroopers are Clones? GL was talking about his ORIGINAL BACKSTORY there, not the finished product. Originally, Jabba was also a hairy man and the Death Star was supposed to go through 3 episodes before being destroyed. GL also says that Boba Fett is the originator of the clones in that same paragraph, which goes to show that he's just talking about the ideas going on in his head rather than the actual finished product. Sure, the Stormtroopers may have started out as a clone army, but A LOT of evidence goes against this. Why is the war that starts in AOTC called the Clone Wars if all present conflicts are fought with clones? How can a million units of clones, whether they be individual soldiers or armies fight against an enemy capable of constructing droid armies orders of magnitude greater in size? The clones may have given the Republic a fighting force when it had none before, but soon they would have to resort to conscripting regular people to get the numbers capable of competing with the Confederacy. Also, why is cloning referred to with such fear in the Thrawn trilogy if all the Stormtroopers were already clones. And why aren't TIE pilots or officers clones?

And just because we don't see those ships in the ISB in the movies doesn't make them any less valid. In fact, we SHOULDN'T see VSDs in Episode 3, since they weren't even made yet.

[Jim Raynor]

Jadeite,

George Lucas goes through the trouble of making five (soon to be six movies) of the rise and downfall of the Empire, just to have the Empire squash the people who are celebrating the downfall of the Empire at the end of the final movie? I think someone else is the idiot here.

Wow, you didn't provide one shred of evidence prove your point. IDIOT.

[Ender]

Finally, someone else who makes a sense.

As opposed to that sentence.

Here's a clue: It is called "Grammar"

Also, taking one bit of his post dealing with a contradiction (that may not even be a contradiction depending on Ep3) to try and prove your soundly defeated "point" is a logical fallacy of the first order.

You are the weakest link. Goodbye.

[Jim Raynor]

I was under the impression that all canon material according to GL is based onthe movies, novelizations of the movies, and the radio programs of the movies. The other EU novels don't count. So unless somebody can show proof from any of those sources their argument doesn't amount to hill of beans. If the creator of this site wants to use EU books as canon that is his problem, not mine. I'm willing to hear out what everyone has to say as long as it is from a canon source. I love Star Wars. I'm not trying to "deconstruct" Star Wars. I just want to look at Star Wars from GL's original vision. I don't care for all of the lame EU writers like KJA and company.

You are a fucking moron. Just where did you get the idea that EU novels don't count? It's Lucas' own policy that the EU counts where it doesn't contradict canon. Everyone has already told you this, yet you keep repeating that you won't accept anything other than the movies and stuff based on the movies like a broken record.

There is no reason to sling insults at each other when we can respectfully discuss the Star Wars Galaxy. I have noticed that there is a lot of antagonism at this website that certainly doesn't have to exist. If someone can present a logical argument I would have no trouble at all believing it.

You're the one who can't present any logical arguments. People insult you because you keep repeating your crap without anything to back it up.

[Tychu]

in many of hte books theres mention of the Imperial Navy. the Imperial Navy is the Star Destroyers and its fighters. Han Solo was part of the Imperial Navy before he left after witnessing the execution and harsh treatment of wookies. Instead of aircraft carriers and battle ships on water we have the SW equivalent in space.

[AL]

Jim Raynor,

I provide some info on the st issue in the st clones or regular joe thread, check it out if you would like. The info is from Lucas back in 1981 regarding the sts. You might find that interesting. In fact everyone should check it out.

[phongn]

Jadeite,

George Lucas goes through the trouble of making five (soon to be six movies) of the rise and downfall of the Empire, just to have the Empire squash the people who are celebrating the downfall of the Empire at the end of the final movie? I think someone else is the idiot here.

What, do you seriously think that the hold of the Empire would suddenly disintegrate upon news that he was defeated at the Battle of Endor? I think not.

The populace of Coruscant rejoiced at the death the Emperor - and then pissed-off Stormtroopers came in and cleaned up shop. They would have to wait a few years for liberation.

[omegaLancer]

The wild party at the end of the ROTJ reminds me of the day after 9/11 when a couple celebration by crowds occurred upon hearing the new, one occur in Staten Island N.Y. and Jersey City N.J. .... Where was the US army or even the police? Must mean that neither organization exist...

For a fleet numbering a few hundred ships, it amazing that in NH the empire could spare 3 Star destroyers to obrit Tantootine while they search for the Droids. Especially since the plans the Droids where carrying was meant as a trap to allow Vader to find the Rebel base....

The fact is that the 3 original movies show a very small part of the Empire The most isolated and( Hoth, Endor, and Tantootine) Backwater planets.

We do see other personnel on Endor in the Bunker not in Storm trooper armor and carrying side arms ( possible Army personnel), just as we hear that in NH from Han that the Imperial navy has other crafts other than Star Destroyer ( "not those Bulk Cruisers"). Trying to base the size or forces from a small number of movies is illogical especially in light that offical material give us a more detail look at The Empire..

From the various Novels, we know that the Empire had 25000 ISD, 5 SSD, and at least 20 major war ships ( cruisers, frigates, escort carriers) for every star destroyer. The Imperial army was garrison on millions of planets.
To Deny this just cause we donot see it in the Movies is poor agruement..
The Universe of SW is more than the movies, it includes the novels and other source material that is authorized and approved by Lucas...

[Guest]

Many of the EU books (except the Han Solo Books I think) came after Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire series. They have been written in order to "milk the Star Wars cash cow" essentially. That being the case, they have to explain and rework what happened in the movies in order to continue the Star Wars storyline. Sorry if I don't accept the EU as real Star Wars, but they are pretty crappy when compared to the movies.

As far as the ROTJ special edition ending, I do recall having seen Imperial Soldiers at one of the celebrations. He was being tossed around like a rag doll. It would appear that there was a general uprising against the Empire. The tearing down of Palpatine's statue symbolically shows that the Empire was soundly defeated. This doesn't mean that there were not small pockets of Imperial forces in power somewhere, but they certainly were not as powerful as the EU would have us believe. Besides, if GL would have the ewoks defeat Stormtroopers, he wouldn't have a problem with billions and perhaps trillions of people overthrowing the Empire after the death of Palpatine.

[Raptor 597]

Many of the EU books (except the Han Solo Books I think) came after Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire series. They have been written in order to "milk the Star Wars cash cow" essentially. That being the case, they have to explain and rework what happened in the movies in order to continue the Star Wars storyline. Sorry if I don't accept the EU as real Star Wars, but they are pretty crappy when compared to the movies.

As far as the ROTJ special edition ending, I do recall having seen Imperial Soldiers at one of the celebrations. He was being tossed around like a rag doll. It would appear that there was a general uprising against the Empire. The tearing down of Palpatine's statue symbolically shows that the Empire was soundly defeated. This doesn't mean that there were not small pockets of Imperial forces in power somewhere, but they certainly were not as powerful as the EU would have us believe. Besides, if GL would have the ewoks defeat Stormtroopers, he wouldn't have a problem with billions and perhaps trillions of people overthrowing the Empire after the death of Palpatine.

Whats wrong the EU? Trying to discount it now? Fact is it is canon and offical And you are noetrying to speak for George Lucas? Last time I heard you won't be directing Episode III. And pockets of power? Yes, they were pockets, but they were thousands, fact is you can't except the Military to simply disappear....*shakes head* I propose he be the new Village Idiot

[Knife]

"sigh" Just because Palpitine died and the citizens rejoiced, does not mean the Empire was destroyed. When the Bolshevic's took over from the Csars the brutal oppresion of the Russian people did not stop. When Napoleon was exiled the replacement goverment was just as bad if not worse, not to mention King Louis earlier. Not an exact comparison but close enough. When the Emperor was killed the citizens celebrated as long as it took the new emperor, regent, director, or what ever too seize the reins of power and clamp down of the rioteers. All the time the millitary was waiting for a proper Command Authority. When the millitary attacks civilians they tend to do so on some serious authority, not just the local commander. Accidents happen like in the 60's but for the most part troops do not like shooting civilians. The Imerial Army was not non-existence they were waiting.
As for an Army or not, I thought that the Stormtroopers were the shock troops and therefore expendable, so why not use clones. The marines of the star wars universe would be the black suited big helmeted Naval troops you can see in the DS in ANH, after all Marines originaly were naval troopers who were used as sharpshooters and guards on naval vessels. Still are in some degree.
The army is probably represtented by the various forms of armour shown in the movies, leaving the traditional infantry roles to the shock troops. However in the bacta war some local conscripts were used with stormtrooper armor, this could be the standard application of conscripted forces, just cuz its stormtrooper armor doesn't mean stormtroopers. The fact is you would still need a large army to hold a oppressive goverment in place, and just because they hesitated at the end of RoTJ does not mean they were not there.

[Oberleutnant]

The celebration scene on Coruscant was nothing but a spontaneous moment by Imperial dissidents, who thought that after Palpatine was gone they would be free to live the way they wanted. Almost immediatelly after the Gulf War was over, the Iraqi opposition rose to an open rebellion against Saddam. They thought that the recent loss by their military against the Allies would mean that Saddam's reign was over. There was celebration in the outermost cities/towns farther away from Baghdad, but that changed soon after Republican Guard tanks came for a visit. Just replace T-72s with stormtroopers and other security forces and you can imagine the most probably outcome of Coruscant scenes. Of course Saddam had not died, but it would be stupid to think that most Imperial officials on Coruscant would have ethical problems over giving orders to subdue the people, especially if it threattened their own position somehow. We don't know if Imperials "hesitated" to use force against the rioters. It was only a short scene after all.

The events that took place during Bacta War were, of course, different to what the pre-Endor Imperials did. Isard was simple a warlord who had limited resources, and probably considered that it was better to give all available equipment to her troops, even if they weren't fully trained, than leave it unused.

[Knife]

Maybe so, after the Battle of Endor and the decline(not end of)the Empire the use of stormtrooper armor would be used by conscripts. It was just an idea. But if you had a realy good piece of equipment that work well in the field and was really tested by trial by combat, would you not want to spread it through all ground troops.
And I don't know if your disagreeing with me on the riots on Coruscant. Maybe I just expressed myself the wrong way. But the commanders of the troops(not the commanders themselves but the equivalent of a one star general) could hesitate to see who took over. The Red Guard did not hesitate because Mr. Mushtache himself was still in power after the war. The commanders on Coruscant could have waited to see if the Rebels were next to come to the planet or if they themselves could take control using their own troops and hoarded their personel.

[Oberleutnant]

Well, I wasn't fully disagreeing with you on the Coruscant riots. Just pointing out few of my ideas -- after all it's hard to say what exactly happened after the news of Palpy's demise reached the Coruscant, because the evidence is quite limited. I'd imagine the situation as a big power vacuum that every Imperial high-ranking officer with the neccessary assets attempts to fill one way or another, to secure his own position.

[Mr Bean]

If you read the EU you know thats pretty closet to what Happen

In order of commanding

Slate Prestege (Trys to surrender but is assisnated)
Former Papy Advisors who are quickly deposed by
Ysard Issard who when she flees Courscant loses power and nearly the Empire but...
Grand Adrimal Thrawn comes back, much ass is kicked, When he's assinated power falls to
Now Admiral Peollon former Right hand Man of Thrawn who bascily is the last one in power until that few Months that Daala is there then Peollon officaly surrenders after roughly twenty years? After ROTJ to the NR

[Raptor 597]

If you read the EU you know thats pretty closet to what Happen

In order of commanding

Slate Prestege (Trys to surrender but is assisnated)
Former Papy Advisors who are quickly deposed by
Ysard Issard who when she flees Courscant loses power and nearly the Empire but...
Grand Adrimal Thrawn comes back, much ass is kicked, When he's assinated power falls to
Now Admiral Peollon former Right hand Man of Thrawn who bascily is the last one in power until that few Months that Daala is there then Peollon officaly surrenders after roughly twenty years? After ROTJ to the NR

Yes, another of Mr. Bean's SW in a Nutshell(TM) It's spelled, Sate Pestage, and it's spelled Pellaeon.

[Mr Bean]

DAMN MY SPELL-CHECKER!

Thanks Lennox

[Raptor 597]

No problem

[Oberleutnant]

I don't really know much about Pestage, but I've read X-Wing books and most of the pre-NJO novels. However I don't think that any EU material reveals what happened immediatelly on Coruscant after Palpy was killed. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.