Rumsfeld: shades of the Iraqi Info Minister?

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-04-13 02:52am

http://english.aljazeera.net/topics/art ... ent_id=258

Rumsfeld cracks jokes, but Iraqis aren't laughing

Lawrence Smallman

At a Pentagon briefing, the US defence secretary faced questions about the rapidly deteriorating security situation, amid calls by aid agencies to allow them to do their job.

“Stuff happens,” came the Rumsfeld reply.

U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld jokes while Baghdad suffers

"It's untidy. And freedom's untidy. And free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things," his adroit fingers this time pointing at no particular member of the press. Lawlessness, closed hospitals and fires burning in Baghdad and other cities are a freed people venting their frustrations, apparently.

If ever an Oscar was deserved for minimizing catastrophic reports coming out of Iraq with jocular "henny penny" disbelief, then Rumsfeld has a date with Hollywood.

“Television is merely running the same footage of the same man stealing a vase over and over,” he joked, adding he didn't think there were that many vases in Iraq. The US may be the strongest nation in the world, but their history is incomparable to that of Iraq – a region that has been described as the cradle of civilization.

Flippant remarks cannot replace priceless artefacts that have disappeared from the National Museum in Baghdad, or the books of the University of Mosul – one of the oldest and best universities in the whole of the Middle East.

But Secretary Rumsfeld has "a lot of confidence in the American people" not to believe TV footage from Iraq. Widespread theft across Iraq, reported in every language on screens worldwide, is an acceptable expression of freedom and really just the same picture shown again and again, he claimed. Meanwhile, Al Jazeera correspondents in Tikrit, Mosul, Basra and Baghdad confirm that US troops are still just watching looters steal private property and destroy any feelings of public safety.

The International Committee of the Red Cross and World Health Organizations issued appeals today to the US and British military to restore order, as the Geneva Convention requires.

Rest of the article snipped. I found Rumsfeld's dismissiveness amusing.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-04-13 03:43am

We can't get in the way of popular sentiment, and Rumsfeld understands this.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-04-13 03:46am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:We can't get in the way of popular sentiment, and Rumsfeld understands this.

In post-war Germany Allied forces strictly prohibited looting. Was that a mistake?

Regardless, I just found his comments much like the Iraqi Information Minister- "it's just one shot being played over and over. Lies!"

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-04-13 07:40am

Rumsfeld was, is, and will probably be an ignorant idiot for the rest of his life.

Posbi · Post by **Posbi** » 2003-04-13 07:59am

Letting public order go down the drain was one damn big mistake that'll be hard to re-create again. As for now I'm not overly impressed with anything the US has proposed or started in regard to a post-war Iraq peace order... .

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-04-13 08:26am

I agree with Marina.

This is a natural result of the invasion and Iraqi liberation.

Within a week we'll have closed the door on the vast majority of looters - in general without having made ourselves too many enemies in the process.

Next of Kin · Post by **Next of Kin** » 2003-04-13 09:24am

Axis Kast wrote: Within a week we'll have closed the door on the vast majority of looters - in general without having made ourselves too many enemies in the process.

That's assuming of course they hunt down and take out the Iraqi plainclothes opposition that remains.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-04-13 09:39am

What do they have to do with large-scale looting?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-04-13 10:39am

The Iraqi people decided that they want to go looting. What do you want us to do, start shooting looters in the streets? It's regrettable that they chose to destroy and steal but it's not suprising. Plenty of pent up frustration ala the LA riots and if we stop it the wrong way then we become the bad guys and they hate us forever.

Rumsfeld, while being his usual tactless self, recognizes that we have to walk a fine line with that.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-04-13 10:42am

Stormbringer wrote: Rumsfeld, while being his usual tactless self, recognizes that we have to walk a fine line with that.

Tactless self...that reminds me of Ted....is he the Donald Rumsfeld of
SDN?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-04-13 10:47am

MKSheppard wrote:Tactless self...that reminds me of Ted....is he the Donald Rumsfeld of SDN?

I'm warning you Shep, don't bring up dead issuses.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-04-13 10:56am

Stormbringer wrote: I'm warning you Shep, don't bring up dead issuses.

What the fuck did I do? All I did was make a comment that
Ted and Rummy both share a tactless obnoxiousness...

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-04-13 11:11am

MKSheppard wrote:What the fuck did I do? All I did was make a comment thatTed and Rummy both share a tactless obnoxiousness...

That they do. But I don't want this to turn into a pro- or anti-Ted crusade. This won't turn into a rehash of it all.

Darth PhysBod · Post by **Darth PhysBod** » 2003-04-13 02:32pm

Vympel wrote: Regardless, I just found his comments much like the Iraqi Information Minister- "it's just one shot being played over and over. Lies!"

To be fair though, skynews were showing that same guy with the vase over and over.

It's a shame people focus on that one comment. I think the point he was getting at was it's only been a couple of days and the media don't have a view of the situation in the whole country (there's probably only General Franks and his staff whoi have that kind of view) .

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-04-13 02:47pm

Well let's be fair, here. The Armed Forces are not trained police officers. That's why Marines aren't pulling people over for speeding. They're trained to approach situations entirely differently from the way police officers are. It's not like they can just arrest the looters, after all.

Besides, isn't the concept of "every man for himself" integral to a capitalist system? We should be happy that the Iraqis have taken to the capitalist way of doing things so quickly!

The looting will probably die down within a week or two.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-04-13 02:47pm

And what exactly can Rumsfield do to suppress this that won't piss of the people any more? A vase is not worth turning the Iraqi populace against the Coalition.

Posbi · Post by **Posbi** » 2003-04-13 03:26pm

So you think burning down valuable estate and looting hospitals is okay? The most vital point in creating a stable post-war Iraq is to have a tight law & order stance, FROM THE START ON. If you keep up civil order, you can concentrate on more pressing issues, but you don't create a stable country, especially in Iraq's case, by just telling the people, "Yeah, oh my, it's looting time, do as you wish, we'll look at it again later"...

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-04-13 03:32pm

I agree with you in principle. But how would you achieve this civil order? Shoot everyone?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-04-13 03:36pm

Posbi wrote:So you think burning down valuable estate and looting hospitals is okay? The most vital point in creating a stable post-war Iraq is to have a tight law & order stance, FROM THE START ON. If you keep up civil order, you can concentrate on more pressing issues, but you don't create a stable country, especially in Iraq's case, by just telling the people, "Yeah, oh my, it's looting time, do as you wish, we'll look at it again later"...

They aren't just saying to hell with it let them loot. But he's recongizing the fact that he's got just military troops and sending them to supress the looting by any means will most likely result in a lot of pissed off Iraqis. We're trying to restore order while not turning the whole country against us.

Posbi · Post by **Posbi** » 2003-04-13 03:54pm

No, you're sitting on the sidelines while the Iraquis beat the rest of their infrastructure that hasn't been destroyed in the war to klump. And you can use troops for such duties; it worked in Germany AND Japan after WW2, and we did well without looting because the strong Allied presence made it impossible from the start on.
But in this case here, nothing is done. Hospitals are looted, for which YOU will have to buy the replacements to prevent an humanitarian catastrophe. Government buildings, that were well-equipped, are looted and burnt down, buildings that both your provisional military government and the US-friendly post-war regime could have very well used. You can't let them open Pandora's Box and then naively expect them to stop later when you want them to. Such events have to be stopped at the start, if necessary with harsh force.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-04-13 04:00pm

You can't let them open Pandora's Box and then naively expect them to stop later when you want them to. Such events have to be stopped at the start, if necessary with harsh force.

Yes, the stuff will have to be replaced and rebuilding done. No ones doubting that. The problem is using the military to crack down on a population that while welcoming us as liberartors will turn on us in heartbeat if we declare martial law. It's a balancing act and there will be consequences later for it but this is the best case for now.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-04-13 04:03pm

Posbi wrote:No, you're sitting on the sidelines while the Iraquis beat the rest of their infrastructure that hasn't been destroyed in the war to klump. And you can use troops for such duties; it worked in Germany AND Japan after WW2, and we did well without looting because the strong Allied presence made it impossible from the start on.

The difference is that we weren't freeing the German people. We conquered them. The Iraqis didn't like Hussein. The German people liked Hitler. We could get away with bashing in some German skulls during the occupation because no one gave a shit; this was a country that had just gotten through a "we're going to take over the world + dog" phase and had conducted an attempt at genocide. There was no question as to the legitimacy or reason for World War II; there was a ton over the Iraq War.

The minute Coalition troops start bashing Iraqi heads, the public opinion of the legitimacy of the war goes down the shitter. The Coalition has to proceed very carefully from here on in. In fact, this is the part I was most worried about and the part that I don't think the administration thought through very thorougly: the aftermath.

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2003-04-13 04:22pm

Posbi wrote: it worked in Germany AND Japan after WW2, and we did well without looting because the strong Allied presence made it impossible from the start on.

IIRC the Allies only had about 10-20 million troops to afford to police and continue the advance before the war ended for the Germans. Today all the coalition haves is roughly a quarter-million troops, and of those maybe around 100,000 in Iraq to do anything.

For the Japanese they have their honor system and their Emperor telling them to stand down and behave. Today there is no one with any unchallenged authority to tell the Iraq to behave themselves and stop fighting.

Such events have to be stopped at the start, if necessary with harsh force.

You're asking for at least a PR disaster if the troops fired the looters.