Can a Christian be a creationist and NOT a fundie?
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- fgalkin
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He didn't believe that evolution was possible (his father ownes a charter school, and of course he goes there. Tends to tell you about the quality of science education in some of those places, doesn't it?) Hence, he concluded that the only possible explanation for the multitude of species encountered was that they were created by God, and then adapted to their surroundings (he did believe in microevolution).neoolong wrote:If he didn't think the Bible was literal, then where did he get the idea that creationism is right from?
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That's just their escape route for making shit up and ignoring things they don't like. When push comes to shove, we're still talking about a belief based on the assumption that the Bible can be used as a piece of evidence.fgalkin wrote:Well, I've met one of them. When I was at this summer program at Yale, my roommate (from North Carolina) was a devout Roman Catholic, yet he did not believe in biblical inerrancy. Yet, he was a creationist who did not believe in "macroevolution", i.e. that species could change into other species (although he did believe in "microevolution").
However, he did not insist on the literal interpretation of the Bible (IIRC, it is not a part of Catholic doctrine).
In my experience, people like that don't realize how flimsy their position is until you push them. At that point, they generally fall back on the assumption that while the Bible is not true in every single detail, it is still "true enough" that it can be used as evidence for a scientific theory. That's close enough to a fundie as far as I'm concerned.Also note that other than being a creationst, he was quite intelligent (otherwise he wouldn't have gotten into the program in the first place). Hell, when we were doing debates, I managed him to support my topic (legalization of marijuana).
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Well, the point is that he wasn't arguing for biblical creation. He was just saying that we were created by god. You can use almost any holy book, from the Bible and the Koran to the Greek myths and the Eddas to prove that.AdmiralKanos wrote:That's just their escape route for making shit up and ignoring things they don't like. When push comes to shove, we're still talking about a belief based on the assumption that the Bible can be used as a piece of evidence.fgalkin wrote:Well, I've met one of them. When I was at this summer program at Yale, my roommate (from North Carolina) was a devout Roman Catholic, yet he did not believe in biblical inerrancy. Yet, he was a creationist who did not believe in "macroevolution", i.e. that species could change into other species (although he did believe in "microevolution").
However, he did not insist on the literal interpretation of the Bible (IIRC, it is not a part of Catholic doctrine).In my experience, people like that don't realize how flimsy their position is until you push them. At that point, they generally fall back on the assumption that while the Bible is not true in every single detail, it is still "true enough" that it can be used as evidence for a scientific theory. That's close enough to a fundie as far as I'm concerned.Also note that other than being a creationst, he was quite intelligent (otherwise he wouldn't have gotten into the program in the first place). Hell, when we were doing debates, I managed him to support my topic (legalization of marijuana).
Have a very nice day.
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True, but only the Book of Genesis has the ex nihilo creation story necessary for the Creationists' arguments. The Arkansas Trial in 1981 fairly well showed that Creationism is a particular form of religion, not a science at all. I'm working on a paper dealing with this, which should end up online eventually...once I finish writing it later today or tomorrow.fgalkin wrote: Well, the point is that he wasn't arguing for biblical creation. He was just saying that we were created by god. You can use almost any holy book, from the Bible and the Koran to the Greek myths and the Eddas to prove that.
Have a very nice day.
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You don't even need the bible to exist or be necessarily religious exist to be to have creationist-like beliefs.
<---- points to creationist mythology of many many cultures.
And before Darwin, it is just as valid as any belief because the contradicting facts aren't collected and added up at the time.
If one defines all non-scientific knowledge as religion, sure
If one define creationism as following the bible literally about genesis, sure
<---- points to creationist mythology of many many cultures.
And before Darwin, it is just as valid as any belief because the contradicting facts aren't collected and added up at the time.
If one defines all non-scientific knowledge as religion, sure
If one define creationism as following the bible literally about genesis, sure
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Re: Can a Christian be a creationist and NOT a fundie?
It does, but that's not the only factor that is included in fundamentalism. Y ou have to understand that fundamentalists will attack ANY discrepancy in the Bible.. ie, homosexuality, religions that AREN'T that denomination, etc., etc.Superman wrote:What do you people think? When I talk to Christians, I usually ask them what they think about creationism to find out if they're fundies.
If they believe in this so called creation, that sort of makes them Biblical literalists, doesn't it?
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Learn something new every day..Superman wrote:Hmmm... Yes true. For me, I have always just thought that Christians that believe in a six day creation, and discount evolution, are fundies.
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Since I was raised in fundie household, it is hard for me to not lump them into one category of nuttiness.
It is strange: since I know their personality types so well, I can usually pick them out before they tell me that they are Christians. It's almost as if they have some sort of underlying mental disorder that can be diagnosed.
It is strange: since I know their personality types so well, I can usually pick them out before they tell me that they are Christians. It's almost as if they have some sort of underlying mental disorder that can be diagnosed.
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Most of which have long since gone away in favour of evolution. Judeo-Christianity-Islam is the only group still fighting evolution in any significant way.SWPIGWANG wrote:You don't even need the bible to exist or be necessarily religious exist to be to have creationist-like beliefs.
<---- points to creationist mythology of many many cultures.
Actually, gradual development was a theme in Chinese science centuries before Darwin, and Da Vinci also identified gradual development and interrelationship. Darwin formalized it.And before Darwin, it is just as valid as any belief because the contradicting facts aren't collected and added up at the time.
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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Do those who believe in the "cosmological argument" count as creationists? I've heard of several of them that don't believe in the bible, but attribute the universe to some outside force, called in the interests of ease, "god".
Doesn't genesis also say that god just let the animals come out of the ground or something, or just let them you know, appear...doesnt sound like it condemns evolution that much, just it's in the wrong order and people just assume?
Doesn't genesis also say that god just let the animals come out of the ground or something, or just let them you know, appear...doesnt sound like it condemns evolution that much, just it's in the wrong order and people just assume?
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Creationism covers both cosmology and biology. That's why they tend to assume evolution does the same thing, even though it doesn't.Rye wrote:Do those who believe in the "cosmological argument" count as creationists? I've heard of several of them that don't believe in the bible, but attribute the universe to some outside force, called in the interests of ease, "god".
Genesis says God took dust from the ground and breathed life into it. For some reason, creationists think this is more scientifically reasonable than evolution theoryDoesn't genesis also say that god just let the animals come out of the ground or something, or just let them you know, appear...doesnt sound like it condemns evolution that much, just it's in the wrong order and people just assume?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Genesis says God took dust from the ground and breathed life into it. For some reason, creationists think this is more scientifically reasonable than evolution theory [/quote]
That sounds like abiogenesis to me, admittedly written strangely, and with a god in...but if god is the universe...
but what the hell am i doing? trying to put something worthwhile into genesis?!
<goes off to chastise self>
That sounds like abiogenesis to me, admittedly written strangely, and with a god in...but if god is the universe...
but what the hell am i doing? trying to put something worthwhile into genesis?!
<goes off to chastise self>
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Or maybe the man in question is just a product of Creationist indoctrination.AdmiralKanos wrote: At that point, they generally fall back on the assumption that while the Bible is not true in every single detail, it is still "true enough" that it can be used as evidence for a scientific theory. That's close enough to a fundie as far as I'm concerned.
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Bah...creationism's a heresy anyway, and I'm about to write the section of my paper dealing with that . Considering my outline for the paper is two handwritten pages long, it may take a while to write this condemnation of creationism. Keeping it down to the twelve pages my professors want as a maximum may be a problem.
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Re: Can a Christian be a creationist and NOT a fundie?
Guess I'm vague then.Darth Wong wrote:Those people are just Christians who went vague.fgalkin wrote:But what about people who don't follow any particular religion, yet believe in God and that they were created by him (not necessarily folowing Genesis)?
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With some actually, yes you can.. LOL. They're called Seventh-Day Adventists.. look for B12 deficiency and most likely hypothyroidism as well, the price of being a vegan all their lives. But hell, I'm SURE most of you are suffering some form of dementia as well: hypothyroidism, depression, ptsd, sleep deprivation.. etc etc..Superman wrote:Since I was raised in fundie household, it is hard for me to not lump them into one category of nuttiness.
It is strange: since I know their personality types so well, I can usually pick them out before they tell me that they are Christians. It's almost as if they have some sort of underlying mental disorder that can be diagnosed.
Well, maybe someone could believe all the "facts" recounted in the Bible and conclude that God is an asshole so they aren't going to let him boss them around?Darth Wong wrote:OK, how many creationists are out there who are willing to admit that the Bible (or Koran, or Torah, whatever applies in his/her case) is not true?Howedar wrote:A Creationist view need not strictly adhere to the version in the Bible (or Koran, or Torah, or whatever religious text we choose to talk about). Thus, one could be a creationist and not a fundamentalist.
Basically an atheist who hasn't gotten around to not believing in God yet.