Iraq Museum Plundered

[Knife]

The U.S. let the looting go on for more than a day, and that makes them no better than any other of the barbarian invaders that ransacked cities in the past.

Ok, you almost had me until you wrote that......


Again, how is it going to increase our position either diplomaticly or militarilly if we start shooting looters? I lament the loss of the 5000 year old schoolbook and I guess the other things but to ignite an entire city to attack us and everything else in the city will not save the artifacts either. It was unreasonable to secure the site before actual stategic sites and unfeasable to secure it after the looting began for fear of inflamming the populace of the city.

[Knife]

It would be easier to wate until alot of the hysteria over there abaits a little and impose order. Then while rebuilding, interdict the artifacts using law enforcement techniques instead of military force which use of the military doesn't help us in any way.

Do you think the U.S. should have posted guards at a bank that held a billion US dollars in currency? If so, then they should have been at the museum. Just one more reason to add on to the long list of why this war should have never happened.

Not any more so than I think they should have guarded the museum. After a couple of days or so after the heavy fighting was done, then yes. But either the bank or the museum should not have taken the place of stategic locations such as palaces (possible CCC), bridges, military instalations, ect....

Either cash or stolen artifacts would be recovered easier with interdiction later rather than armed intervention at a time when those armed interventors are needed else where.

[Graeme Dice]

Ok, you almost had me until you wrote that......

Again, how is it going to increase our position either diplomaticly or militarilly if we start shooting looters? I lament the loss of the 5000 year old schoolbook and I guess the other things but to ignite an entire city to attack us and everything else in the city will not save the artifacts either. It was unreasonable to secure the site before actual stategic sites and unfeasable to secure it after the looting began for fear of inflamming the populace of the city.

Have you no idea of how to perform crowd control without killing people? You don't have to shoot people to make them leave an area.

[Graeme Dice]

Either cash or stolen artifacts would be recovered easier with interdiction later rather than armed intervention at a time when those armed interventors are needed else where.

How do you plan to recover artifacts when it's not even certain if there are any remaining records of those artifacts?

[Knife]

Have you no idea of how to perform crowd control without killing people? You don't have to shoot people to make them leave an area

Yes I do, and all of them (in the situation with an angery mob) involves some level of violence or threat there of. It is my beilf that any direct involvment to prevent Iraqi looters from looting the museum would have ended up with a horrible escalation of force that would have led to shooting the civilians and opening up a pandoras box that none could close. The only possible way to disuade the looters without killing them would have been to place a large contigent (equal or larger than the mobs) and that would have been an unacceptable diversion of troops and equipment from other viable military targets.

How do you plan to recover artifacts when it's not even certain if there are any remaining records of those artifacts?

Investigation. Those wanting to sell the artifacts will either get them out of the country and/or the buyers will have them in their possesion. Boader control will be on of our major concerns after the hot war is over, for various reasons to include screening for ex-goverment types. Stopping looted and stolen items to include your museum pieces would probably be up there on the list of the boarder patrols and checkpoints.

I would also assume that raids on Ba'ath party members and investigations of other elites would cough up some more of the artifacts. Poor starving people don't buy expensive artifacts, rich people do, so that narrows down the list a little bit. I guess it is possible that a poor guy will be swiping a bowl or cup to actually use as a bowl or cup but then again.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Irony factor forseen:

Person who stole Hammurabi's laws will lose his hands due to gangrene infection as a result of lack anti-biotics, from the looting of the hospitals.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

So what you are saying is that the armed forces shouldn't have been used to stop looting during the L.A. riots as those were the will of the people also?

Of course not. Those people were rioting against a government where they had recourse to a legal system which was established by constitutional process and gave them specific rights. The Iraqis are taking action against the edifices of a tyrannical regime which did not give them such rights. There's a clear difference and trying to connect the two is ridiculous.

[Darth PhysBod]

I think people have to make a distinction between some of the looters here and not tar all Iraqi's with the same brush.
It’s true many of the people looting the palaces/regime strongholds are ordinary, decent Iraqi's showing their resentment of the regime, blowing off 35 years of pent up anger.
At the same time you have to remember the regime deliberately emptied all the low-life scum from the prisons onto the streets in the run up to war. These guys are the ones likely looting hospitals and ransacking infrastructure not directly connected to the regime.

[Darth Wong]

What original site? Performing an archaeological excavation destroys the site itself. Without the artifacts, you have no basis for history, and without that, you might as well declare that it was Martians who taught us how to farm, because there would be just as much evidence.

As long as we retain the knowledge to farm, what difference does it make? And Occam's Razor would nullify that Martian theory.

[Darth Wong]

The works of Einstein, Newton, or Hawking has objective value (although Hawking, while brilliant, is overrated). It improves the accuracy of predictive models which can be used in order to design technologies and construct working weapons, spacecraft, particle accelerators, etc. Virtually all mechanical engineering concepts are dependent upon Newtonian physics in some way. To argue that Newtonian physics has no more objective value than a piece of ancient pottery is ludicrous.

A piece of ancient pottery or masonry that contains information as to the formation of human cultures, language and technology. These are the very works that you say have no objective value, yet you argue that modern equivalents of these do?

Actually, if you are talking about the loss of the actual documents of Einstein and Newton rather than the loss of the scientific knowledge that they helped create, then I would say that they have no objective value either. The genius of Einstein is very well documented now, and if his original papers were lost, it would be of no great importance.

Look, I understand that some people might have trouble understanding this, but damn - can't you realise just how valuable all this is? Not monetarily, but culturally and intellectually.

"Damn, can't you realize" is not an actual argument. What objective value is there in such trinkets, once we have already documented them?

These are artifacts from the birth of civilisation WHICH IS STILL UNDER STUDY! Losing them represents a blow to the entire world. I'm sorry, but thats the way it is, like it or not.

If you say "that's the way it is", you are traditionally expected to explain why you know that to be true. The history of ancient civilizations is interesting but of no substantive importance to modern life. Certainly not as important to your average Marine as his own safety, and need I remind you once again that the fighting is still ongoing?

[Darth Gojira]

I can't help but think of this dillema: Say we're at a war with France. We attack Paris. Some thugs loot the Leuve(sp.?). That sums it up nicely(The Louve paintings are just as objectively useless as the relics)

[Dahak]

...The history of ancient civilizations is interesting but of no substantive importance to modern life.

Just couldn't resist...

Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

George Santayana (1863-1952).

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

...The history of ancient civilizations is interesting but of no substantive importance to modern life.

Just couldn't resist...

Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

George Santayana (1863-1952).

I fail to see how losing a few clay pots will condemn humanity to repeat history.

The lessons to be learned from history are to be learned from the social interaction of our ancestors... not to the primative tools used by them.

[Slartibartfast]

I fail to see how losing a few clay pots will condemn humanity to repeat history.

Can't you see it?! People will start making pots with no bottom, or with handles that are too small! Maybe they'll start making them from paper! It will be disastrous! (j/k)

[Stormbringer]

...The history of ancient civilizations is interesting but of no substantive importance to modern life.

Just couldn't resist...

Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

George Santayana (1863-1952).

And how does the loss of a few documented arftifacts doom us to repeat history. It's a shame they were lost but it's hardly comparable to the loss of lives that could have and would have resulted had we tried to stop it.

[Queeb Salaron]

The Boston Herald ran a great headline the other day:

Bagdhad Looting Baffling

I looked at it and had to laugh. Baffling? What is there to be baffled about? There's no order. People are stealing shit. End of discussion. What is there to be confused about??

[Stormbringer]

The Boston Herald ran a great headline the other day:

Bagdhad Looting Baffling

I looked at it and had to laugh. Baffling? What is there to be baffled about? There's no order. People are stealing shit. End of discussion. What is there to be confused about??

Why exactly they went on a rampage. I mean would you go and smash up your neighborhood?

[Graeme Dice]

What original site? Performing an archaeological excavation destroys the site itself. Without the artifacts, you have no basis for history, and without that, you might as well declare that it was Martians who taught us how to farm, because there would be just as much evidence.

As long as we retain the knowledge to farm, what difference does it make? And Occam's Razor would nullify that Martian theory.

No, it woulddn't nullify that theory if no evidence existed to show that there were other better theories. Without the supporting evidence and artifacts, anything said about the past is just conjecture.

[Graeme Dice]

"Damn, can't you realize" is not an actual argument. What objective value is there in such trinkets, once we have already documented them?

What documentation? The computers that held the records have been smashed. Museums keep documentation with the artifacts themselves.

[Graeme Dice]

And how does the loss of a few documented arftifacts doom us to repeat history. It's a shame they were lost but it's hardly comparable to the loss of lives that could have and would have resulted had we tried to stop it.

Would you care to show us where it has been stated that the documentation of all the lost artifacts still exists?

[HemlockGrey]

Graeme, please make a decision.

Scenario A:
Loss of life
Inflamation of Population
Riots
More loss of life
Iraqi stabilization comprimised
International Incident

Scenario B:
Loss of ancient artifacts, at least some of which can be recovered

Which would rather have occur?

[Graeme Dice]

Graeme, please make a decision.

Scenario A:
Loss of life
Inflamation of Population
Riots
More loss of life
Iraqi stabilization comprimised
International Incident

Scenario B:
Loss of ancient artifacts, at least some of which can be recovered

Which would rather have occur?

That's a false dilemma. You forgot Scenario C:
Post guards, no loss of life necessary because the looters will leave the museum alone due to an armed presence.

[Stravo]

Graeme, please make a decision.

Scenario A:
Loss of life
Inflamation of Population
Riots
More loss of life
Iraqi stabilization comprimised
International Incident

Scenario B:
Loss of ancient artifacts, at least some of which can be recovered

Which would rather have occur?

That's a false dilemma. You forgot Scenario C:
Post guards, no loss of life necessary because the looters will leave the museum alone due to an armed presence.

Under scenario C PROVE that the soldiers could stop the looters by not shooting them, PROVE that a few guards without much support would not become a traget for Fedayeen snipers and the like, PROVE that those Marines could not be better used ferreting out the last of this regime and finally ending the war so some order can at last be restored.

[Graeme Dice]

Under scenario C PROVE that the soldiers could stop the looters by not shooting them, PROVE that a few guards without much support would not become a traget for Fedayeen snipers and the like, PROVE that those Marines could not be better used ferreting out the last of this regime and finally ending the war so some order can at last be restored.

It's not my job to prove your claims. You are claiming that, unlike almost every crowd control situation that happens in the modern world, somehow lethal force will be required to control these people. Please prove that.

As for the use of marines, if 100 marines will make a difference to the outcome, then the U.S. is lying about the current state of the war.

[Stravo]

Under scenario C PROVE that the soldiers could stop the looters by not shooting them, PROVE that a few guards without much support would not become a traget for Fedayeen snipers and the like, PROVE that those Marines could not be better used ferreting out the last of this regime and finally ending the war so some order can at last be restored.

It's not my job to prove your claims. You are claiming that, unlike almost every crowd control situation that happens in the modern world, somehow lethal force will be required to control these people. Please prove that.

As for the use of marines, if 100 marines will make a difference to the outcome, then the U.S. is lying about the current state of the war.

The administration may be lying about their numbers but the grunt on the ground is not. Watch the embeds, the grunts when asked are very blunt -
"we just don't have enough troops to both act as police men and fight effectively." Fact of the matter is we may have handedly won this war but we are in there with a bare bones force and the Pentagon is doing a nice song and dance about the numbers game.